http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lBw2Wne0gAU
This islam speaker is giving me some questions.
Video is about a christian asking a muslim convert on why he abandoned christianity for islam
islam speaker. little help?
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WannaLearn
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WannaLearn
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Re: islam speaker. little help?
And do we have copies of the original manuscripts?
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B. W.
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Re: islam speaker. little help?
Concerning the bible please read the following from this site:WannaLearn wrote:And do we have copies of the original manuscripts?
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorg.html
Concerning the quran read this for an overview...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran
The quran began and inspired by an angel choking someone, hmmm
The Bible begins with God creating and having a plan to redeem and reconcile human beings by Grace.
Of the two, who does a person wish to follow - one that chokes or redeems by Grace?
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PS - rather interesting article here:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/possessed.htm
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
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(by B. W. Melvin)
Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
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Cloud
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Re: islam speaker. little help?
Just speaking off the cuff here. I don't want to drop a novel. But I have a few points to bring up that might be of help. I can provide a little more backup for these things if you would like. But here's the short version:
1 - It's easy to make a claims. It's another thing to look at the nitty-gritty details. This is especially true regarding textual criticism - which is a battlefront on which the Christian must be informed. At some point, most Christians will be challenged about the accuracy of the Bible. It's easier than ever to learn about that sort of thing. But you've got to be willing to put a few hours a week aside to learn. It's fascinating material.
2 - Bart Ehrman - Any time somebody starts using Bart Ehrman's work, you know they're on uneven ground. In the appendix of the book Estes refers to, Misquoting Jesus, the editors asked Ehrman "Why do you believe these core tenets of Christian orthodoxy to be in jeopardy based on the scribal errors you discovered in the biblical manuscripts?" How did he respond? By saying "Essential Christian beliefs are not affected by textual variants in the manuscript tradition of the New Testament." That's assuming Ehrman's claims in the book are even factual. And it's not like Ehrman doesn't accurately know what Christians believe. As Estes said, Ehrman used to be an evangelical. He's a Moody graduate. He knows exactly what is essential to Christian doctrine.
3 - Estes says there are no contradictions between the teachings of the Bible and Quran "except where the Bible contradicts itself". Putting that last qualifier aside for a moment, it strikes me that you would have to give a wildly liberal reading of both Biblical and Quranic texts to arrive at that conclusion. Either Jesus is the Son of God or not. It can't be true and untrue. But even more concerning is that, if there's no contradiction, why was he so compelled to leave Christianity for Islam? Surely there's some variant that compelled him. I don't know of a committed Christian or Muslim who is also a committed pluralist.
4 - "...except where the Bible contradicts itself" - there's one we've all heard. This is when, if it came up while talking to somebody on the street, you would ask need to ask "Where exactly does the Bible contradict itself?"
5 - Copy of a copy of a copy of a copy - Again, knowing about textual criticism is crucial. Take comfort in knowing that we don't need the original sources to know whether what we have is accurate - and Bart Ehrman knows it (see point 2). The manuscript count is over 5,800 (and counting). Trying to sneak an edit or an error into that kind of database is like trying to edit a story out of every copy of yesterday's newspaper after it's been published and delivered. Many of our copies are very early. Read about the proposed age of the famous P52 or the Codex Sinaiticus from St. Catherine's.
6 - The man with the microphone wins. - In the end, Estes is the one on stage. He can make whatever claim he wants and somebody will cheer. When a Christian has the stage in front of a largely Christian audience, he can do the same thing. Either way, we shouldn't be compelled simply because a claim maker has a microphone. What should compel us is a well-made case.
Further stuff:
Debate: Is the Quran Reliable - James White and Yusuf Ismail http://youtu.be/nvpyxtE6r-4?list=PLBby8 ... 88u8vypjSg
Lecture: Reliability of the NT - Dan Wallace https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT-RZYHxT1s
Debate: Is the NT Reliable? - Dan Wallace and Bart Ehrman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk0bMzaIGas
1 - It's easy to make a claims. It's another thing to look at the nitty-gritty details. This is especially true regarding textual criticism - which is a battlefront on which the Christian must be informed. At some point, most Christians will be challenged about the accuracy of the Bible. It's easier than ever to learn about that sort of thing. But you've got to be willing to put a few hours a week aside to learn. It's fascinating material.
2 - Bart Ehrman - Any time somebody starts using Bart Ehrman's work, you know they're on uneven ground. In the appendix of the book Estes refers to, Misquoting Jesus, the editors asked Ehrman "Why do you believe these core tenets of Christian orthodoxy to be in jeopardy based on the scribal errors you discovered in the biblical manuscripts?" How did he respond? By saying "Essential Christian beliefs are not affected by textual variants in the manuscript tradition of the New Testament." That's assuming Ehrman's claims in the book are even factual. And it's not like Ehrman doesn't accurately know what Christians believe. As Estes said, Ehrman used to be an evangelical. He's a Moody graduate. He knows exactly what is essential to Christian doctrine.
3 - Estes says there are no contradictions between the teachings of the Bible and Quran "except where the Bible contradicts itself". Putting that last qualifier aside for a moment, it strikes me that you would have to give a wildly liberal reading of both Biblical and Quranic texts to arrive at that conclusion. Either Jesus is the Son of God or not. It can't be true and untrue. But even more concerning is that, if there's no contradiction, why was he so compelled to leave Christianity for Islam? Surely there's some variant that compelled him. I don't know of a committed Christian or Muslim who is also a committed pluralist.
4 - "...except where the Bible contradicts itself" - there's one we've all heard. This is when, if it came up while talking to somebody on the street, you would ask need to ask "Where exactly does the Bible contradict itself?"
5 - Copy of a copy of a copy of a copy - Again, knowing about textual criticism is crucial. Take comfort in knowing that we don't need the original sources to know whether what we have is accurate - and Bart Ehrman knows it (see point 2). The manuscript count is over 5,800 (and counting). Trying to sneak an edit or an error into that kind of database is like trying to edit a story out of every copy of yesterday's newspaper after it's been published and delivered. Many of our copies are very early. Read about the proposed age of the famous P52 or the Codex Sinaiticus from St. Catherine's.
6 - The man with the microphone wins. - In the end, Estes is the one on stage. He can make whatever claim he wants and somebody will cheer. When a Christian has the stage in front of a largely Christian audience, he can do the same thing. Either way, we shouldn't be compelled simply because a claim maker has a microphone. What should compel us is a well-made case.
Further stuff:
Debate: Is the Quran Reliable - James White and Yusuf Ismail http://youtu.be/nvpyxtE6r-4?list=PLBby8 ... 88u8vypjSg
Lecture: Reliability of the NT - Dan Wallace https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT-RZYHxT1s
Debate: Is the NT Reliable? - Dan Wallace and Bart Ehrman https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk0bMzaIGas