sleep or judgment

[PaulSacramento]

are spirit and soul the same thing?

No BUT they are typically used that way.

To have a Soul is what it means be alive, every living animal has a soul ( some have argued that only mammals have a soul).
To have a spirit is a unique trait to ONLY humans.
We are born "soulish" and become "spiritual".

Can the soul die? YES, Christ says so a few times that it can be destroyed.
Is it immortal? define immortal and we can go from there.
Is the spirit immortal, that is more tricky BUT biblically speaking I believe the answer is YES.

[Starhunter]

can someone else give their input? LOL

When Jesus said that the dead girl sleeps, you notice a whole crowd laughed and scorned Him. Then He took those who did not laugh in with Him to raise the girl from death.

God makes life, it is like they are sleeping. But God does not make life in death, that's not even common sense. The Bible makes it plain that the "dead know not anything" there are no feelings and no work - nothing, until the day in which they are resurrected. Ecclesiastes 9:7-10 KJV.
So death is like being asleep - you don't know anything until you are resurrected.

It's very difficult to have a fair judgement while you are asleep isn't it?

The girl and Lazarus and the many people that Jesus raised from the dead, never had anything to say about "roaming around on a journey" or "facing a judgement," or "sitting in Abram's lap," or visiting living relatives etc.
And nobody ever complained about being bought down from a comfortable place in heaven to this dark world again. If they had gone to heaven they would have had something to say, wouldn't they? And there would have been a notable reaction.

NDE's are machinations of the mind, which can vary from seeing toads to lights and voices, but a NDE is not death, the mind was still working on some level. That thought may be frightening because you wonder if a person may still be alive when pronounced dead, no not at all, the thoughts about NDE's are constructed by the waking mind, which can give false memories, as well as real life constructions that are very uncanny and can match reality or some philosophy with amazing detail. But that is just one of the many wonders about our minds. There have been cases where people had brain damage and after were able to perform amazing feats like being able to play the piano, though never taught. God has made us extremely smart, and sin has made us stupid. Adam named all the animals by their roles and characteristics in less than a couple of hours, after he sinned, he said the most stupid things like "she made me do it" - while he was wearing itchy fig leaves.

But wait a minute, did not King Saul consult a witch and she spoke to dead Samuel? And did not God warn His people never to consult with the Devil's agents?
Isaiah 8:19,20 KJV, God exposes and warns about the works of Satan as having two main features - consulting with the 'spirits of the dead' which are evil angels pretending to be your dead relatives, and the the attacks of Satan against the law of God which he hates. The law of God states "Thou shalt not kill." If people cannot be killed because they can float around in a disembodied spirit or soul or ghost, then the law is nonsense.

[B. W.]

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Eccl 9:5 and the subect of the dead does not mean the dead are asleep, or non-existing, but rather the simple fact, that they will have no more part in this life. In fact, please read better scholars than me on this:

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6

He sarcastically verifies his comparison in favour of a living dog. “For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not anything, and have no more a reward; for their memory is forgotten. Their love, as well as their hatred and their envy, has long ago perished, and they have part no more for ever in all that is done under the sun.” The description of the condition of death begins sarcastically and then becomes elegiac. “They have no reward further,” viz., in this upper world, since there it is only too soon forgotten that they once existed, and that they did anything worthy of being remembered; Koheleth might here indeed, with his view shrouded in dark clouds, even suppose that God also forgot them, Job 14:13. The suff. of אהֲבָ, etc., present themselves was subjective, and there is no reason, with Knobel and Ginsburg, to render them objectively: not merely the objects of their love, and hatred, and envy, are lost to them, but these their affections and strivings themselves have ceased (Rosenm., Hitzig, Zöckl., and others), they lie (Kevar 'avadah) far behind them as absolutely gone; for the dead have no part more in the history which is unfolding itself amid the light of the upper world, and they can have no more any part therein, for the dead as not living are not only without knowledge, but also without feeling and desire.

The representation of the state after death is here more comfortless than anywhere else. For elsewhere we read that those who have been living here spend in Sheol, i.e., in the deep (R. של, to be loose, to hang down, to go downwards) realm of the dead, as rephaim (Isa 14:9, etc.), lying beneath the upper world, far from the love and the praise of God (Psa 6:3; Psa 30:10), a prospectless (Job 7:7., Job 14:6-12; Job 18:11-13), dark, shadowy existence; the soul in Hades, though neither annihilated nor sleeping, finds itself in a state of death no less than does the body in the grave.

But here the state of death is not even set forth over against the idea of the dissolution of life, the complete annihilation of individuality, much less that a retribution in eternity, i.e., a retribution executed, if not here, yet at some time, postulated elsewhere by the author, throws a ray of light into the night of death. The apocryphal book of the Wisdom of Solomon, which distinguishes between a state of blessedness and a state of misery measured out to men in the future following death, has in this surpassed the canonical Book of Koheleth. In vain do the Targ., Midrash, and the older Christian interpreters refer that which is said to the wicked dead; others regard Koheleth as introducing here the discourse of atheists (e.g., Oetinger), and interpret, under the influence of monstrous self-deception, Eccl 9:7 as the voice of the spirit (Hengst.) opposing the voice of the flesh. But that which Koheleth expresses here only in a particularly rugged way is the view of Hades predominating in the O.T.

It is the consequence of viewing death from the side of its anger. Revelation intentionally permits this manner of viewing it to remain; but from premises which the revelation sets forth, the religious consciousness in the course of time draws always more decidedly the conclusion, that the man who is united to God will fully reach through death that which since the entrance of sin into the world cannot be reached without the loss of this present life, i.e., without death, viz., a more perfect life in fellowship with God.

Yet the confusion of the O.T. representation of Hades remains; in the Book of Sirach it also still throws its deep shadows (17:22f.) into the contemplation of the future; for the first time the N.T. solution actually removes the confusion, and turns the scale in favour of the view of death on its side of light. In this history of the ideas of eternity moving forward amid many fluctuations to the N.T. goal, a significant place belongs to the Book of Koheleth; certainly the Christian interpreter ought not to have an interest in explaining away and concealing the imperfections of knowledge which made it impossible for the author spiritually to rise above his pessimism. He does not rise, in contrast to his pessimism, above an eudaemonism which is earthly, which, without knowing of a future life (not like the modern pessimism, without wishing to know of a future life), recommends a pleasant enjoyment of the present life, so far as that is morally allowable

Eccl 9:5

know that they shall die — and may thereby be led “so to number their days, that they may apply their hearts to wisdom” (Eccl 7:1-4; Psal 90:12).

dead know not anything — that is, so far as their bodily senses and worldly affairs are concerned (Job:21; Isa 63:16); also, they know no door of repentance open to them, such as is to all on earth.
neither ... reward — no advantage from their worldly labors (Eccl 2:18-22; Eccl 4:9).

memory — not of the righteous (Psa 112:6; Mal 3:16), but the wicked, who with all the pains to perpetuate their names (Psa 49:11) are soon “forgotten” (Eccl 8:10)

Ecc_9:5

For the living know that they shall die. This is added in confirmation of the statement in Eccl 9:4. The living have at least the consciousness that they will soon have to die, and this leads them to work while it is day, to employ their faculties worthily, to make use of opportunities, to enjoy and profit by the present. They have a certain fixed event to which they must look forward; and they have not to stand idle, lamenting their fate, but their duty and their happiness is to accept the inevitable and make the best of it. But the dead know not anything. They are cut off from the active, bustling world; their work is done; they have nothing to expect, nothing to labor for. What passes upon earth affects them not; the knowledge of it reaches them no longer. Aristotle’s idea was that the dead did know something, in a hazy and indistinct way, of what went on in the upper world, and were in some slight degree influenced thereby, but not to such a degree as to change happiness into misery, or vice versa (’Eth. Nicom.,’ Eccl 1:10 and Eccl 1:11). Neither have they any more a reward; i.e. no fruit for labor done. There is no question here about future retribution in another world. The gloomy view of the writer at this moment precludes all idea of such an adjustment of anomalies after death. For the memory of them is forgotten. They have not even the poor reward of being remembered by loving posterity, which in the mind of an Oriental was an eminent blessing, to be much desired. There is a paronomasia in zeker, "memory," and sakar, "reward," which, as Plumptre suggests, may be approximately represented in English by the words "record" and "reward."

One day, we will die and you will awake immediately into a new life, may it be with Christ Jesus rather than...
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[Starhunter]

A spirit is something only humans have. Only humans have a spiritual part of us that allows us to realize God exists, and have a relationship with Him. Humans are body, soul, and spirit.

Dear RickD, Ecclesiastes 3:19 -21. KJV - man and animals have the same fate, the same breath, and return to dust in the same way, and man has no preeminence over the animals.

Pagan people used to say that man's spirit goes up and the animal's spirit goes down, but neither is true. They both have life - called spirit and both lose it when they die. But if "spirit" means "the ability to realize God," then animals have it too. You probably mean something else, but I am only going by the definitions, by the context in scripture.

Some like to make a difference between, soul, ghost, spirit etc, In the complete absence of the idea that people have an ongoing life form after death, these terms are interchangeable and used to describe anything from thoughts to the breath of life.
When God made man, He breathed into him and Adam became a living soul. Breath of life = living person. Living person minus breath of life = death. That is how it began and how it ends.
Genesis 2:7 KJV.


Dear BW,

I cannot conclude from the Bible quotes in the above post that there is a continued life upon death.

The spirit is life and breath - both at the same time, and when a creature dies - man or animal, it loses both.
Job 27:3 The breath of life and spirit/soul are all the same. When a person dies their life goes back to God. I cannot see a personal ghost in the picture.

Job 14:7-15. When a tree is cut down it can regrow from the stump, life comes out of what seems dead, but you cannot do the same with man, when he dies there is no life that continues, and here the Bible talks about death as a sleep. And Job makes it plain that man does not rise again, unless of course he is resurrected as Job is counting on.

The only text that seems to give credit to the doctrine of continued life through or after death, is the parable of Lazarus in Abram's lap. A parable.

When Jesus raised Lazarus to life, where was he when Christ called him? What was Lazarus doing? Had he gone to heaven? Had he been interrupted during a judgement? Was he talking with Abram?

David was "a man after God's own heart" wasn't he? And he died, what does the Bible say about King David?

Acts 2:29, 34 "David is not ascended into the heavens," but David "is both dead and buried" and his tomb is still there.
And David himself talks about his hope in the resurrection and the sleep of death, verse 26, "my flesh shall rest in hope."
In the same texts David said - that Christ would be resurrected to sit on the right hand of God, until His enemies become His footstool to destroy death - God's last enemy. But David and Job are dead and will be raised on the day of the resurrection.

[RickD]

So lemme get this straight Starhunter. You call yourself a Christian, yet you don't believe in the afterlife? Is that correct?

[B. W.]

Confusion reigns other the limited vocabulary of ancient Hebrew language in its usage of its 8000 words verses our English with it uses of about 500,000 words. The body goes into the ground and decays, but the spiritual essence of a person continues on because as the principle from 2 Sam 14:14 states - God does not take away life. The body does return to dust but the human spiritual being continues on. God can slay the flesh and brings folks into judgment but he does not slay the spiritual essence of a person as that is against his nature and character. Actually think on this a bit more.

Back to the text Starhunter cited:

Again there is a distinction between animal kind and humankind, 1 Co 15:39, and in Eccl 3:19-21 one must not remove the context of the text and pull what is not there out. Eccl 3:11-15 leads to Eccl 3:16, 17, 18 which defines verses 19-21 as pertaining to judgement and God testing humanity to see if they are beastlike and beast like is humanity - note ISIS for example and the world of politics, etc...

The author of Eccl is describing God bringing folks into judgment, just as Heb 9:27 mentions. Those found beast like will go to the depths of the earth and those not, return to God - that is the message of Eccl 3:21. In Eccl 3:22 the author cries out for the Messiah as the Messiah is the only one that reveal what the afterlife is like and he did so in Luke 16:19-31 which must be based upon solid objective truth because if not, then not one word of Jesus can be trusted, period. In fact, Eccl 12:1-14 the author sums up who escapes the judgement of being found beastlike as listening and obeying the Word of God - John 1:1-3. Those that do, escape will find themselves with God... those not, will justly be found in the abyss prepared for the devil and all his minions...

Ezekiel 26:20 sets forth a principle found in Numbers 16:30 and Job 26:5-6 NKJV, Ezekiel 32:21, 31, Isaiah 24:17,22, Psalms 9:17, Proverbs 14:32 NKJV; Isa 3:11, Isa 5:14; Mat 25:41-46, 2 Thess 1:7-9, Rev 20:15, Rev 21:8


Ezekiel 26:20, "...then I will bring you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lowest part of the earth, in places desolate from antiquity, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you may never be inhabited; and I shall establish glory in the land of the living." NKJV
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[Starhunter]

2 Sam 14:14 "For we must needs die and are as water spilt on the ground...neither does God respect any person: yet He devises means that his banished are not expelled from Him" Nothing there about "God does not take life away."
1 Co 15:39 - different kinds of flesh - nothing about "spirits,"
Eccl 3:19-21-men and animals die in the same way -
Eccl 3:11-15 Enjoy life because God has put the world in our minds,
Eccl 3:16, 17, 18 - there is wickedness in the world and people don't behave better than animals
verses 19-21 man and animals share the same fate
Heb 9:27 there is a judgement after death - does not indicate straight away either
Eccl 3:21 -Eccl 3:22 -enjoy life because men are no better than the beasts which perish
(There's no author "crying out for the messiah" written here)
Luke 16:19-31 A parable based on popular beliefs.

"which must be based upon solid objective truth because if not, then not one word of Jesus can be trusted"

Jesus also said "Ye are the salt of the earth" does not mean we belong in a shaker.
Eccl 12:1-14 Live your life, especially your youth for God, avoid disappointment, keep the commandments
John 1:1-3 Jesus made everything - nothing there about an abyss and hell
Ezekiel 26:20 The pit - a place of no inhabitants total annihilation
Numbers 16:30 Continue in sin and you end up dead
Job 26:5-6 dead things are formed under the waters, oceans, like sludge and oil from animal carcasses, destruction is not hidden from God
Ezekiel 32:21, 31, the scenes of war and slaughter are faced by those involved
Isaiah 24:17,22, fear is associated with death
Psalms 9:17, The wicked will be destroyed in hell
Proverbs 14:32 The righteous have hope of life after death, the wicked don't.
Isa 3:11 The wicked get what they deserve
Isa 5:14; hell is enlarged for the pompous
Mat 25:41-46, Everlasting punishment for the wicked - the punishment is everlasting, everlasting death.
2 Thess 1:7-9, An everlasting destruction - if it was not everlasting there is a chance someone will survive
Rev 20:15 the lake of fire - which you said is not real fire in anther thread
Rev 21:8 the second death
Ezekiel 26:20, repeating the above

I have just gone through all the references that you have given to support the idea that people are different than animals and have a spirit or soul or ghost that can be tortured forever and never dies. But none of these texts tell me that. There is an "everlasting destruction" that comes from God, who is also everlasting life and naturally destroys anything ugly as sin and sinners with an "everlasting fire," that consumes everything, even "hell is cast into that lake of fire." Everything is gone. "No more to be found" as the Bible says in some of the texts you quoted.

It seems like you cannot let go of the idea - of the everlasting souls tortured forever. Do you know how long that is? Have you ever been burned by fire? I hope you never have to experience that in order to understand what you have been saying.
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[Starhunter]

Ezekiel 18:32
"For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dies, saith the Lord God; wherefore turn and live."

God is the author of Life, He is Life itself, death is a result of sin - of despising life.

If God was to maintain any life that is damaged or sinful, He would do so at the cost of His own suffering.
Ever since sin entered, God has suffered, and He will not permit sin and sinners, angels or men to continue this pain any longer than necessary, therefor the Bible teaches an everlasting destruction from which there is no escape or return, but not everlasting souls.
The doctrine of eternal torture to everlasting ghosts, is not taught in the authentic versions of scripture. Yet many read into the Bible what is not there, and form a network of ideas which seem to be connected, when in fact they are not. If any contradictions are found, they apply a new meaning to the text, "spiritualizing" it away or resorting to a philosophical view.
The Bible ought to be read in its most apparent meaning in the language that it is written in.
It has been the work of Satan to misrepresent the character of God, to turn men away from God in disgust. And he has well succeeded by causing many forms of Christianity to imbibe erroneous pagan beliefs, which have their origin in occult worship.

[B. W.]

Star,

When I read your post, I am struck by something about you and correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to me you have more of an ax to grind against legalistic harsh work to maintain salvation doctrine than you do about God's justice. Therefore, were you raised in such strict lose-your-salvation-if-you-see-any-movie kind of family or simply non-religious family?
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[Starhunter]

Star,
When I read your post, I am struck by something about you and correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to me you have more of an ax to grind against legalistic harsh work to maintain salvation doctrine than you do about God's justice. Therefore, were you raised in such strict lose-your-salvation-if-you-see-any-movie kind of family or simply non-religious family?-

"...you have more of an ax to grind against "legalistic-harsh-work-salvation" doctrine than you do about God's justice."

If this is what you mean by this sentence, yes, I don't agree with a humanistic or "works" attempt at salvation, and so far as God's justice is concerned I cannot argue against my limited understanding of that either.

What I get from the Bible about judgement - is that there is never any unnecessary cruelty in His judgement, which is fair and accurate.
Isaiah 28:21KJV - When God exercises His wrath, it is a "strange work" to Him and even a "strange act" altogether, because by nature He is always patient, merciful, and creative. Destruction and death are totally foreign to Him. He does not even like to discipline His wayward children on earth, but does so because He is not fickle.
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[B. W.]

Star,
When I read your post, I am struck by something about you and correct me if I am wrong, but it appears to me you have more of an ax to grind against legalistic harsh work to maintain salvation doctrine than you do about God's justice. Therefore, were you raised in such strict lose-your-salvation-if-you-see-any-movie kind of family or simply non-religious family?-

"...you have more of an ax to grind against "legalistic-harsh-work-salvation" doctrine than you do about God's justice."

If this is what you mean by this sentence, yes, I don't agree with a humanistic or "works" attempt at salvation, and so far as God's justice is concerned I cannot argue against my limited understanding of that either.

What I get from the Bible about judgement - is that there is never any unnecessary cruelty in His judgement, which is fair and accurate.
Isaiah 28:21KJV - When God exercises His wrath, it is a "strange work" to Him and even a "strange act" altogether, because by nature He is always patient, merciful, and creative. Destruction and death are totally foreign to Him. He does not even like to discipline His wayward children on earth, but does so because He is not fickle.
.

So I was correct that you were raised or part of a demanding legalistic form of religion masquerading as Christianity - is this so?

I need this clarified before we continue or we will be going around in circles talking on this subject and not getting anywhere. Can you share a bit on what form you were under before we proceed?
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[Starhunter]

So I was correct that you were raised or part of a demanding legalistic form of religion masquerading as Christianity - is this so?

I need this clarified before we continue or we will be going around in circles talking on this subject and not getting anywhere. Can you share a bit on what form you were under before we proceed?

I have said all I need to say on this topic thanks.

[B. W.]

So I was correct that you were raised or part of a demanding legalistic form of religion masquerading as Christianity - is this so?

I need this clarified before we continue or we will be going around in circles talking on this subject and not getting anywhere. Can you share a bit on what form you were under before we proceed?

I have said all I need to say on this topic thanks.

Okay then, then please consider that due your background with legalism in Christian circles, cannot you then see that your point of view may also be skewed because of this?

Threats during sermons or in family circles of d--nation for one infraction of legalism all can do a number on one's thinking in a wrong manner...
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[Starhunter]

I was raised on a farm, the surrounding towns had a number of cathedrals, churches and halls, that was about the extent of my exposure to religion - walking past a church and hearing the singing or parts of a sermon.
I'm not sure why you are implying another background to my life?

[B. W.]

I was raised on a farm, the surrounding towns had a number of cathedrals, churches and halls, that was about the extent of my exposure to religion - walking past a church and hearing the singing or parts of a sermon.
I'm not sure why you are implying another background to my life?

It has a lot to do with the topic in several ways. First, if you experienced some form of legalistic form Christianity either through direct contact, or through media (radio, TV, movies) then that would have an effect on you as it would on anyone. Secondly, if your only early exposure in life was walking by a church, hearing singing, or parts of a sermon that also would have some short of effect on you as well. Add to this would be why you never took the time to actually go into one of these meetings back then and listen shows something as well, an influence. Therefore what is that - it shows that you, like everyone else often base value judgments on something you know very little about and in this case, regarding God's justice. By walking by Harvard University does not make a person a PhD in Political Science. You have to attend class and graduate to earn a PhD. Likewise, walking by churches, and/or being influenced by media,etc, cannot make you an expert in God's Justice and Judgment, either. That is why I brought this up. Now you mentioned on your info bio that you are a Young Earth Creationist so have come to Christ, which is good, even then past influences can cloud perceptions of God's judgement. Attending a local church that is legalistic or too lazy or intellectually dull during your walk with the Lord can influence perception of God's justice/judgment too. With that, what part of God's justice do you have trouble the most in understanding now?
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