rapture

[puritan lad]

I don't see how in the world verse 34 of Matt 24 could mean that the rapure happened in 70 ad. If you look at the word generation in the Greek it could also mean "age" and age was a lot longer than 40 years. How do you explain 1 Cor 15 if the rapture already happened? Where's the evidence from history for a 70ad rapture? Why are Christians living at all? I don't see anything in the Bible that warrants the rapture happening in 70ad, especially in Matt 24 and especially verse 34. The problem is that Jesus often talked in parables using symbolic language and if thats the case here there is no case for a 70ad rapture. We are dead in our sins if there is no rapture!

Wayne, again you missed the point.

I don't believe in a "70 AD rapture". I don't believe in the rapture period. The Bible does not teach it, anywhere. It is not found in Matthew 24. It is not found in 1 Cor. 15. It is not found in the book of Revelations. The "rapture" of 1 Thess, 4, bares no resemblance to the left behind doctrine because it happens AFTER the resurrection (v. 16-17) which takes place on the "last day" (John 6:39, 40, 44). There is no scriptural support for a future tribulation period, a third Jewish temple, a future world dictator, or anything else in the left behind timeline.

I would like for you to find one single scripture that supports a future tribulation. There aren't any.

[Reliable]

Interesting topic, let's take it from the top.

Puritan (or anyone else), please answer the following questions for me.

1. Can you show me exactly where in the prophecy of the 70 weeks that the church is mentioned?

2. Can you explain to me what's going on in Daniel chapter 9 starting from verse 1, what was Daniel worrying about?

3. Who does "My people/ your people" is refering to?

4. To whom was the prophecy given?

[waynes world]

I think you miss what Jesus is saying in Matthiew 24:34 if you think the rapture happened in 70 ad! He is speaking symplically not literally, lets get that straight. Jesus is talking about a rapture that hasn't happened yet. There is no historical evidence at all that Jesus came then> Nor is there any at all in Matt 24. Didn't you read my point at all about the Greek for generation? I said that it can also mean race didn't I? The more reliable translations use race. The only way the rapture could have happened in 70ad would be if verse 34 and the rest were literal and exactly 40 years! there are plenty of scholars who dispute that figure and say its more like 70 years which would have put the rapture at 100ad not at 70 ad. If there is no rapture we are dead in our sins according to 1 Cor 15! Can't you see that? Suppose you explain to me Titus 3 verse 7 "so that having been justified by his grace we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." The king James calls that the "blessed Hope" which is what we call the rapture. Without that hope there's no bigger waste of time than following Christ!

[puritan lad]

I think you miss what Jesus is saying in Matthiew 24:34 if you think the rapture happened in 70 ad! !

Wayne, one more time. I do not believe that the "rapture" happened in 70 AD. I do not believe it will happen, period.

is speaking symplically not literally, lets get that straight.

I agree.

Didn't you read my point at all about the Greek for generation? I said that it can also mean race didn't I?

Another dispensational falsehood. "a genea" NEVER refers to race. If Jesus had meant race, he would have said "a ethnos", not "a genea". The phrase is used 42 times in the Bible, and it always refers to a generation, a contemporary group of people.

The more reliable translations use race.

Name one.

If there is no rapture we are dead in our sins according to 1 Cor 15! Can't you see that?

1 Cor. 15 is about the "last day" resurrection, not a pre-trib rapture.

Suppose you explain to me Titus 3 verse 7 "so that having been justified by his grace we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." The king James calls that the "blessed Hope" which is what we call the rapture.

The Bible says that the "blessed hope" is eternal life, not a pre-trib rapture.

Without that hope there's no bigger waste of time than following Christ!

It's sad that you actually believe this. How about escaping the judgment of God and eternity in Hell for eternal life in paradise? That's a pretty good incentive.

[puritan lad]

Puritan (or anyone else), please answer the following questions for me.?

Gladly.

1. Can you show me exactly where in the prophecy of the 70 weeks that the church is mentioned?

It isn't.

2. Can you explain to me what's going on in Daniel chapter 9 starting from verse 1, what was Daniel worrying about?

He was worried about "desolations of Jerusalem" (Verse 2).

3. Who does "My people/ your people" is refering to?

Israel.

4. To whom was the prophecy given?

Daniel.

Daniel's 70 week prophecy has been fulfilled.

Now your turn.

1.) Where does Daniel metion a 2,000 year (or more) Gap in his 70 week prophecy?

2.) Where does Daniel mention "antichrist"?

3.) Where does Daniel mention a "rapture"?

4.) Where does Daniel mention a European Union?

5.) Read Acts 2:16-21; 3:24-26; 15:14-18; Galatians 3:8. How can anyone say that the Old Testament Prophets did foresee the church age? They not only saw it, they looked forward to it.

Perhaps the worst part of this whole dispensational theology (besides teaching that the OT is invalid) is that it teaches that we will someday return to “weak and beggarly elements,” such as the temple, sacrifices, Jewish exaltation. Talk about going backwards. What does that say about the work of Christ, who has "entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption." (Heb 9:12). We aren't going back to that, ever. See Also: Galatians 4:9; Hebrews 9-10; 1 Peter 2:5-9; Ephesians 2:20-21; 1 Corinthians 3:16; 6:19; 2 Corinthians 6:16.

[puritan lad]

Correction:

5.) Read Acts 2:16-21; 3:24-26; 15:14-18; Galatians 3:8. How can anyone say that the Old Testament Prophets did NOT foresee the church age? They not only saw it, they looked forward to it.

[Reliable]

Just so we are clear, can you explain to me "how" the 70th week of the prophecy has been fulfilled?

[waynes world]

Where is the post trib rapture in that verse?Is Jesus lying when he says that no one knows when the son o man appears? Jesus return is supposed to be a surprize, but if the rapture is post trib a surprize isn't possible. None of Matt 24 says the rapture happens after the tribulation. Jesus is talking about those who be savved during it not to the saints! The second coming whenever its talked about in the Biblle is always about judgment not rewards. Jesus' appearance in the clouds isn't a second coming but those of us who remain will join him and we shall not all sleep according to 1 Thes 4. Is Paul lying? Because Jesus says there will be a lot of death in Matt 24 so there is a serious contradiction if the rapture isn't pre-trib.

[waynes world]

I think you miss what Jesus is saying in Matthiew 24:34 if you think the rapture happened in 70 ad! !

Wayne, one more time. I do not believe that the "rapture" happened in 70 AD. I do not believe it will happen, period.

---Then you make Paul a liar and you are dead in your sins according to 1 Corinthians 15!---

is speaking symplically not literally, lets get that straight.

I agree.

Didn't you read my point at all about the Greek for generation? I said that it can also mean race didn't I?

Another dispensational falsehood. "a genea" NEVER refers to race. If Jesus had meant race, he would have said "a ethnos", not "a genea". The phrase is used 42 times in the Bible, and it always refers to a generation, a contemporary group of people.

---Even if it read generation Jesus is talking about 70 years if he means literally but the word "race" is in the Greek, look at it yourself and "race" could mean an indefinite period of time. The fact is "race" often can be translated from the Greek instead of generation---

The more reliable translations use race.

Name one.

---Strongs---

If there is no rapture we are dead in our sins according to 1 Cor 15! Can't you see that?

1 Cor. 15 is about the "last day" resurrection, not a pre-trib rapture.

--No its about a pre-trib rapture! It certainly questions those who said there was no rapture. Again you should check the Greek.---

Suppose you explain to me Titus 3 verse 7 "so that having been justified by his grace we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life." The king James calls that the "blessed Hope" which is what we call the rapture.

The Bible says that the "blessed hope" is eternal life, not a pre-trib rapture.


--Of course its about a pre-trib rapture. The rest of the passage says so, is Paul lying?---

Without that hope there's no bigger waste of time than following Christ!

It's sad that you actually believe this. How about escaping the judgment of God and eternity in Hell for eternal life in paradise? That's a pretty good incentive.

---Its sad that you misunderstand me. I said that if the post trib version is true or if there's no rapture where's the hope of being a Christian and yet Titus 3:7 says there's a "blessed hope" TIts sad that you do not believe the Christian has any hope at all in the future. But Paul says a hope. Is Paul lying?--

[puritan lad]

Just so we are clear, can you explain to me "how" the 70th week of the prophecy has been fulfilled?

The Prince in Daniel's Prophecy is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ himself. It is He alone who “confirms a covenant with many”, “brings an end to sacrifice and offering”, and makes Jerusalem desolate. Did Daniel's 70 week prophecy come to complete fulfillment? Yes. Daniel 9:24 lists six specific things would be accomplished by the end of this period, all of which have been fulfilled. In confirmation of the fulfillment, it reads, "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to:"


1. "To finish the transgression," - This was fulfilled. (Luke 11:47-51 ; Matt 23:29-32; Matt 21:33-45)
2. "Make an end of sins," - This was fulfilled. (John 1:29; Matt 1:21; Acts 10:43; Hebrews 9:26)
3. "Make reconciliation for iniquity," - This was fulfilled. (II Cor 5:18-21; Hebrews 2:17; Col 1:20; Romans 5:10)
4. "Bring in everlasting righteousness," - This was fulfilled. (Romans 3:25,26; Hebrews 9:12; II Thess 2:16; II Cor. 9:9)
5. "Seal up vision and prophecy," - This was fulfilled. (Hebrews 1:1-2; John 1:1; II Peter 1:19-21)
6. "Anoint the most holy (or holy place)." - This was fulfilled. (Matthew 3:15-17; Luke 4:18; Acts 4:26,27; 10:38)

To make the 70th week of Daniel a future event is to make Daniel a false prophet. But this seems to be the only way to make Dispensational Theology work, just invent some 2,000 year time period out of thin air, call it the “church age” and stick it into the Bible wherever you feel it is needed. But Daniel did not gave us that option. Daniel's said that his prophecy would be fulfilled within 70 weeks (490 years). Daniel's 70th week is past history.

[puritan lad]

Where is the post trib rapture in that verse?Is Jesus lying when he says that no one knows when the son o man appears? Jesus return is supposed to be a surprize, but if the rapture is post trib a surprize isn't possible. None of Matt 24 says the rapture happens after the tribulation. Jesus is talking about those who be savved during it not to the saints! The second coming whenever its talked about in the Biblle is always about judgment not rewards. Jesus' appearance in the clouds isn't a second coming but those of us who remain will join him and we shall not all sleep according to 1 Thes 4. Is Paul lying? Because Jesus says there will be a lot of death in Matt 24 so there is a serious contradiction if the rapture isn't pre-trib.

Wayne,

One more time. I do NOT believe in a "post-trib" rapture. I do not believe in the rapture (as currently defined) at all. There will be no future tribulation period. There will be no world dictator. There will be no "left behind" people. When Christ returns, history will end. There will be a resurrection and a final judgment. Matthew 24 is past history. Our hope is in our resurrection unto eternal life, not in an escape from some future tribulation period. Is the a little clearer? No rapture, No future tribulation period, no antichrist. Our hope is in our gift of eternal life.

[puritan lad]

---Its sad that you misunderstand me. I said that if the post trib version is true or if there's no rapture where's the hope of being a Christian and yet Titus 3:7 says there's a "blessed hope" TIts sad that you do not believe the Christian has any hope at all in the future. But Paul says a hope. Is Paul lying?--

Hope in the future??? Are you kidding me? Postmillennialism has much more hope for the future than the current "left behind" stuff. We believe that the church will be successful in completing the Great Commission, whereas you believe that it will fail. Our hope is dominion, your's is "escape", or as David Chilton calls it, the "Chicken Little" Doctrine. The sky is falling, Satan is in control, the world is coming to an end, so let's find a way out of here. What kind of hope is that?

[waynes world]

Where's the hope for Christians if we have to look forward to those awful plagues that Revelation describes? Somehow you need to look at what they are and tell me how any Christian could live through any of them and yet Paul says in 1 Thes 4 "we shall not all sleep." is Paul lying here? Is jesus lying in Matthiew 24:35 to the end? There's much more hope if we are sntched from the earth to beet Christ in the clouds. Even if the rapture is post trib thats something that has to happen. Yet Rev20 talks about the saints returning with Christ when he sets foot on the earth and parts the mountain in two. How can that happen if we are rasied from the dead then? Are two things happening at once? That makes no sense. No the left behind idea is the best one to fit the Bible as far as I'm concerned. Thats the hope we as CHristians have. we are not appointed to God's wrath.

[puritan lad]

Wayne,

Let me try again because you are just not getting it.

There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.

It's over Wayne. The plagues that you are afraid of have already taken place. Can I possibly make this any clearer? There will be no rapture, and there is no tribulation period to escape from. Now one more time, for the record.

There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.

Did you get it that time?

[bizzt]

Wayne,

Let me try again because you are just not getting it.

There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.
There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.

It's over Wayne. The plagues that you are afraid of have already taken place. Can I possibly make this any clearer? There will be no rapture, and there is no tribulation period to escape from. Now one more time, for the record.

There is no reason to believe in a future tribulation period.

Did you get it that time?

Can you explain when these plagues have taken Place?