sleep or judgment

[militarynewb]

OK WAIT A MINUTE!!, Starhunter are you trying to say when we die we don't go to heaven at all!!?!? Then what the heck is John 3:16 all about?!!!? :'( I don't want to die i thoughts that why the idea of eternity was placed in my heart :S

[Starhunter]

I was raised on a farm, the surrounding towns had a number of cathedrals, churches and halls, that was about the extent of my exposure to religion - walking past a church and hearing the singing or parts of a sermon.
I'm not sure why you are implying another background to my life?

It has a lot to do with the topic in several ways. First, if you experienced some form of legalistic form Christianity either through direct contact, or through media (radio, TV, movies) then that would have an effect on you as it would on anyone. Secondly, if your only early exposure in life was walking by a church, hearing singing, or parts of a sermon that also would have some short of effect on you as well. Add to this would be why you never took the time to actually go into one of these meetings back then and listen shows something as well, an influence. Therefore what is that - it shows that you, like everyone else often base value judgments on something you know very little about and in this case, regarding God's justice. By walking by Harvard University does not make a person a PhD in Political Science. You have to attend class and graduate to earn a PhD. Likewise, walking by churches, and/or being influenced by media,etc, cannot make you an expert in God's Justice and Judgment, either. That is why I brought this up. Now you mentioned on your info bio that you are a Young Earth Creationist so have come to Christ, which is good, even then past influences can cloud perceptions of God's judgement. Attending a local church that is legalistic or too lazy or intellectually dull during your walk with the Lord can influence perception of God's justice/judgment too. With that, what part of God's justice do you have trouble the most in understanding now?

I don't know what kind of churches you are involved with, my church was the earth and the sky, not anything of the likes you have posted.

In any case, it's best to stick to what the Bible says, and not worry too much about these influences.

[Starhunter]

OK WAIT A MINUTE!!, Starhunter are you trying to say when we die we don't go to heaven at all!!?!? Then what the heck is John 3:16 all about?!!!? :'( I don't want to die i thoughts that why the idea of eternity was placed in my heart :S

You celebrate the resurrection don't you? What's the point of the resurrection if you can ghost it straight after you die?

John 6:40 KJV "everyone which...believeth on Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day"
John 6:44 KJV. "I will raise him up at the last day."

The resurrection is taught in the Bible, but ghosting it after death is not. To see Christ after death can only be accomplished if He raises one back to life, not a useless spook, but a real living person.

After Christ was resurrected, He visited the disciples who thought He was a ghost, but He proved otherwise "...a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see me have." Luke 24:39 KJV.

Job 19:26,27 KJV Job says in the OT "...yet in my flesh shall I see God."
"Whom I shall see for myself. and my eyes shall behold, and not another, though my reins be consumed within me."

The "reins" are the heart strings that God pulls, Job is saying that when he sees God his heart will melt.

Now if the Bible teaches immediate ghosting after death, where was Lazarus before Christ bought him back to life? Remember he was dead for days, so he would have had time to spook it somewhere in the universe.

He did not do anywhere, like King David he was "dead and buried," never to return until "the last day" when Christ resurrects all His own.

[RickD]

Starhunter,

Was Paul wrong when he said:

6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by [a]sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8

http://www.gotquestions.org/absent-from-the-body.html

[Starhunter]

Starhunter,

Was Paul wrong when he said:

6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by [a]sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:6-8

A few verses back supply the definition; - 2 Corinthians 5:1-5 KJV.
The apostle wishes he was absent from this body on earth, does not immediately mean ghosting it up there without a body.
"For we groan...desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:...not that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up by life."
The same applies at the resurrection previously stated in 1 Corinthians 15:53 KJV "for this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." verse 44 "there is a natural body and a spiritual body." If we take the interpretation of ghosting, then it would read "there is a natural body and a spirit."

At the resurrection you don't lose your old self, it is incorporated in with the new heavenly body. I think that's nice.
'

[RickD]

Oh, so what you're saying is that Paul meant to say that being absent from the body is to be at home sleeping with The Lord?

You don't think it's possible that sleeping refers to the body, which is made "awake" at the resurrection? Where then do our spirits go when our bodies die?

[B. W.]

...I don't know what kind of churches you are involved with, my church was the earth and the sky, not anything of the likes you have posted.

In any case, it's best to stick to what the Bible says, and not worry too much about these influences.

Well, it shows then - earth and sky influenced you to be selective and isolated from other Christians who can influence and used of God to help your walk with the Lord and grow in the knowledge of Him.

Earth and Sky denote an unhealthy pride.

We both agree to stick with the bible. However, the bible without the Holy Spirit's instruction and influence is merely an intellectual exercise.

Proverbs 18:1 NASB and Proverbs 18:1 NKJV
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[Starhunter]

Oh, so what you're saying is that Paul meant to say that being absent from the body is to be at home sleeping with The Lord?

Something like that, when he said home he meant on earth, and absent from home or earth or present body meant in heaven with the Lord.

RickD wrote You don't think it's possible that sleeping refers to the body, which is made "awake" at the resurrection? Where then do our spirits go when our bodies die?

The spirit is the life of God, and goes back to Him upon death, it does not have to ascend or descend to be returned Eccl 3:21.
The spirit of life is the breath of life which when it was breathed into Adam he became a living soul. So a soul is a person.
In Genesis 46 for example, people that are visiting Jacob are called souls, real people - not in glass jars.

We are afraid of complete death, because we do not understand the power of God to bring back every molecule into place, and we do not understand how our personalities are perfectly preserved by Him. Jesus recognized this and called death a sleep.

When we die we don't know a thing, until the resurrection, so that to the thief on the cross, Christ could say "today you will be with me in paradise." As soon as the repentant man died, he would be awake to the resurrection - no time gap.

The confusion in religions about body and soul separation, and joining sequences comes from having both doctrines of the resurrection and natural immortality coexisting. That's where we have all the different theories of how and when that takes place. But I have not found anything in the Bible to support the idea that at some time in the future, disembodied spirits are returned to their bodies.

I was puzzled years ago by these texts, why Paul would be absent from his body, when in other places he says that the two become one, the old and new combined. And he also calls his current body "this body of death" recognizing that it is virtually decaying, so to have another body would be like leaving the old body behind altogether, but not necessarily ghosting it.

From a scientific point of view our consciousness is based on all of our bodily functions, the mind and body are intricately connected, every move and every emotion is tied together. To maintain an original personality, an authentic self, the new body must have it's original components fully functional, incorporated and restored.

[Starhunter]

Well, it shows then - earth and sky influenced you to be selective and isolated from other Christians who can influence and used of God to help your walk with the Lord and grow in the knowledge of Him.

Earth and Sky denote an unhealthy pride.

We both agree to stick with the bible. However, the bible without the Holy Spirit's instruction and influence is merely an intellectual exercise.

Proverbs 18:1 NASB and Proverbs 18:1 NKJV
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Yes, "earth and sky" sounds like New Age. But I guess nature has an absence of artificiality.

[B. W.]

Well, it shows then - earth and sky influenced you to be selective and isolated from other Christians who can influence and used of God to help your walk with the Lord and grow in the knowledge of Him.

Earth and Sky denote an unhealthy pride.

We both agree to stick with the bible. However, the bible without the Holy Spirit's instruction and influence is merely an intellectual exercise.

Proverbs 18:1 NASB and Proverbs 18:1 NKJV
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Yes, "earth and sky" sounds like New Age. But I guess nature has an absence of artificiality.

Well, you even mentioned how important the Spirit of God is, the Holy Spirit, yet you say - earth and sky are your teacher

I call that a red flag warning...

So what did motivate you to isolate yourself from the community life of Christ in a local assembly of believers in Christ - besides this one?

Recall what this verse says: "Where there is no counsel, the people fall; But in the multitude of counselors there is safety," Proverbs 11:14 NKJV as this explains one reason to plug into a local assembly or at least hang out with some good Christians folks, or at least begin a prayer group time, etc...

Walking by churches and listening to earth and sky is not the same thing as listening to the wisdom of the Holy Spirit who testifies of Jesus and leads folks into groups of two or more as that is where Christ is in the midst of such. Yes, we have this here, but it is all over the wire, but at least you can see how real we are including all our warts and all! In that, the Holy Spirit helps refine and transforms of Character. However, we all need a few fellow Christians in our lives in a local assembly or at least a bible study / prayer group. In this, we learn from each other as that is how the Lord often uses to trian and eqiup us. As nice as it sounds, to walk under the influence of earth and sky can lead one into great error regarding biblical truth. as it is written:

Pro 18:1 NKJV, "A man who isolates himself seeks his own desire; He rages against all wise judgment"... or from the ESV - "Whoever isolates himself seeks his own desire; he breaks out against all sound judgment."

So that is one reason I keep asking you, who influences you during your christian walk? If it is merely earth and sky, then cannot you see that presents a problem with your manner of bible interpretation as you have no others to bounce off ideas on and discuss with true humility that the Holy Spirit uses to transform / sanctify us. Dealing with others teaches us humility and that is a virtue of Christ's we are to reflect, is it not? For instance, the OT and the NT make it clear that soul sleep, or sleep of death is not sleep at all. Job 26:5,6 alone makes that Clear as does Ezekiel 32:21, 31 because how could Pharaoh see if he is asleep and other hear? How could Isaiah 48:22 be true if the peace of slumber exists? How about the message built upon factual truth spoke by Jesus in Luke 16:19-31 that shows why there is no peace for the unjust?

Therefore, learn to listen with us along with the Holy Spirit, learn, and not rely on the pride of earth and sky...

Are you willing to do this, Starhunter?
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[Starhunter]

I call that a red flag warning...

So what did motivate you to isolate yourself from the community life of Christ in a local assembly of believers in Christ - besides this one?

...As nice as it sounds, to walk under the influence of earth and sky can lead one into great error regarding biblical truth. as it is written:

Pro 18:1 NKJV, "A man who isolates himself seeks his own desire; He rages against all wise judgment"... or from the ESV - "Whoever isolates himself seeks his own desire; he breaks out against all sound judgment."

So that is one reason I keep asking you, who influences you during your christian walk? If it is merely earth and sky, then cannot you see that presents a problem with your manner of bible interpretation as you have no others to bounce off ideas on and discuss with true humility that the Holy Spirit uses to transform / sanctify us. Dealing with others teaches us humility and that is a virtue of Christ's we are to reflect, is it not? For instance, the OT and the NT make it clear that soul sleep, or sleep of death is not sleep at all. Job 26:5,6 alone makes that Clear as does Ezekiel 32:21, 31 because how could Pharaoh see if he is asleep and other hear? How could Isaiah 48:22 be true if the peace of slumber exists? How about the message built upon factual truth spoke by Jesus in Luke 16:19-31 that shows why there is no peace for the unjust?
Therefore, learn to listen with us along with the Holy Spirit, learn, and not rely on the pride of earth and sky...
Are you willing to do this, Starhunter? -

Sure.

Say for instance Ezekiel 32:31, the next verse says, God speaking, "For I have caused my terror in the land of the living..." not of the dead. Pharaoh sees his great army demolished.

Then Verse 21, during a battle the strongest warriors are usually the last to go down, they are the ones that "speak out from the midst" of the hell zone. Nothing seems to indicate communicating to the dead. They are yelling to the rest of the living.
'

[B. W.]

I call that a red flag warning...

So what did motivate you to isolate yourself from the community life of Christ in a local assembly of believers in Christ - besides this one?

...As nice as it sounds, to walk under the influence of earth and sky can lead one into great error regarding biblical truth. as it is written:

Pro 18:1 NKJV, "A man who isolates himself seeks his own desire; He rages against all wise judgment"... or from the ESV - "Whoever isolates himself seeks his own desire; he breaks out against all sound judgment."

So that is one reason I keep asking you, who influences you during your christian walk? If it is merely earth and sky, then cannot you see that presents a problem with your manner of bible interpretation as you have no others to bounce off ideas on and discuss with true humility that the Holy Spirit uses to transform / sanctify us. Dealing with others teaches us humility and that is a virtue of Christ's we are to reflect, is it not? For instance, the OT and the NT make it clear that soul sleep, or sleep of death is not sleep at all. Job 26:5,6 alone makes that Clear as does Ezekiel 32:21, 31 because how could Pharaoh see if he is asleep and other hear? How could Isaiah 48:22 be true if the peace of slumber exists? How about the message built upon factual truth spoke by Jesus in Luke 16:19-31 that shows why there is no peace for the unjust?
Therefore, learn to listen with us along with the Holy Spirit, learn, and not rely on the pride of earth and sky...
Are you willing to do this, Starhunter? -

Sure.

Say for instance Ezekiel 32:31, the next verse says, God speaking, "For I have caused my terror in the land of the living..." not of the dead. Pharaoh sees his great army demolished.

Then Verse 21, during a battle the strongest warriors are usually the last to go down, they are the ones that "speak out from the midst" of the hell zone. Nothing seems to indicate communicating to the dead. They are yelling to the rest of the living.'

You need to look at the context of Ezekiel 32:19-32 (also note Psalms 9:17) and Ezekiel 32:21 it explains where such are hearing and seeing - very much alive...

Also these verse add clues as well: Ezekiel 26:20, Numbers 16:30,33;, Psalms 28:1, Isaiah 14:11-19

Lastly if they are yelling at the living, then would not that show that they are not asleep?
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[Starhunter]

Say for instance Ezekiel 32:31, the next verse says, God speaking, "For I have caused my terror in the land of the living..." not of the dead. Pharaoh sees his great army demolished.

Then Verse 21, during a battle the strongest warriors are usually the last to go down, they are the ones that "speak out from the midst" of the hell zone. Nothing seems to indicate communicating to the dead. They are yelling to the rest of the living.'

You need to look at the context of Ezekiel 32:19-32 (also note Psalms 9:17) and Ezekiel 32:21 it explains where such are hearing and seeing - very much alive...

Also these verse add clues as well: Ezekiel 26:20, Numbers 16:30,33;, Psalms 28:1, Isaiah 14:11-19

Lastly if they are yelling at the living, then would not that show that they are not asleep? -

Yes of course, living people are not dead or asleep, especially if they are running around on the battle field.

These texts mention things like hell, Sheol, the pit, the earth etc. When people die they go down to the earth, death is like a pit that you don't get out of, unless you are raised through a resurrection either to go to heaven with all the other resurrected saints, or to judgement on this earth at the end of the thousand years.

If the wicked awaiting judgement are alive, then God would not have to resurrect them for judgement.
And if they are suffering already, before the judgement, then that is punishment without a fair trial.

The nature of the judgement is like this, neither God the Father or the Son pronounce judgement, they only give a recollection of the person's life, as well as the story of the conflict between good and evil since the beginning.
As the Bible states "thine own mouth shall either condemn or justify thee."
So the judgement brings about a confession of truth and fairness, and it also becomes very clear to them that they are not fit to enter heaven, their characters would not find peace in heaven let alone eternity. Their own thinking would be torture to them. Just imagine being jealous for eternity, after a few years you would not want to live.

In regards to hell, the grave and all the other terms used for death, if one believes that human beings have an immortal disembodied spirit or ghost or soul that has consciousness and some kind of mobility and interaction with another kind or physicality, then in essence we have another creation or reality besides the one we live in. Like a ghost picture to everything. Then having that idea, we would naturally apply these thoughts to anything that talks about hell etc, and imagine people talking, having food and being tortured or whatever in that place.

But apart from the pagan parable that Jesus used for the pharisees, there is no text in the Bible which says that man has a part of him that can ghost it. I would like to see just one text that says that after you die you are whisked up to heaven or float down to hell as a disembodied ghost.

And I would like one text that shows that the meaning of these words - spirit/soul/ghost/breath/mind means a disembodied /immortal entity.

I am not suggesting that a doctrine cannot be proven by a set of texts, with combined themes from here and there to make the one idea, but I was just wondering if there are any texts that you feel would say it outright - "man has an immortal entity within."

[PaulSacramento]

Uh, well:
Eccl. 12:7, "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."

Or you can go here for a quick view:
http://carm.org/soul-cease-exist-after-death

[RickD]

I just don't see any argument for soul sleep, from scripture.