Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

[outlaw]

So the system of rule in heaven is never as on earth where one seeks to dominate the next. The entire universe is governed by this principle, which will dramatically change every relationship, even those of flora and fauna, in the new earth.

So why not just create us there and cut all the crap?

[Starhunter]

Adam and Eve were created with the ability to love. It never had to end. It was possible to do so, and it was also not possible to do so, depending on their decision. Adam and Eve had no propensities, desires or tendencies to sin whatsoever. That same condition will exist in heaven and in the new earth.
They sinned because they could, and for no other reason.
A murderer was asked why he did it and he answered because I can.
It is immature to do something purely because one can.

People get confused with the question of free choice, because their sinful habits are so strong that they cannot see themselves (or Adam and Eve) existing without sinning. And they deem this as having no choice because of the powerful sway sin has over them.

In regards to God wiping out millions in the flood including their offspring, the conditions that prompt God to act in this way, are extreme, and never anything like your everyday scenario, not by a long shot.
When Lot lived in Sodom before they and their off spring were incinerated, the men of the city felt they had the right to pack rape and even kill every man that visited that city. When two angels were threatened with the same treatment, they were blinded, and incinerated later.
The people before the flood were beyond help of any kind, and they were in the process of destroying themselves in a manner far crueler than drowning.
The heathen nations that God wiped out by the armies of Israel, practiced the most unbelievably vile and cruel rituals on themselves and especially their children. The details of those cruel practices are known today.

Their babies were the result of select breeding where the sensitive child with any signs of a good conscience was put through tests designed to kill them. One common practice, was to cause the child to jump through a fire, and if it balked, it would be sacrificed by placing it onto the red hot arms of a bronze statue of a god...

In regards to making a judgement about the character and existence of God, apart from the Bible and religions, life itself can only be of any value if the commandments of God are kept. They are workable and very good laws.
The greatest evidence of God and the Bible are these laws, without which life cannot exist.

[Starhunter]

So the system of rule in heaven is never as on earth where one seeks to dominate the next. The entire universe is governed by this principle, which will dramatically change every relationship, even those of flora and fauna, in the new earth.

So why not just create us there and cut all the crap?

That's exactly what God wishes.
Now when should this happen? While someone is halfway to accepting Him, so that they are cut off, or should we wait until everybody has had a full chance?
He has to let the whole battle between good and evil, which is a real one, to come to a head. It involves Satan and the angels as well. Satan has the support of the majority who share his sentiments about God, but there are many who have not made a conscious decision about it, and that will have to culminate in a global situation that causes a clear division between the loyal and disloyal to God.
In the mean time no one is lost because of that delay, rather victories and strength of character are gained.

The rewards are so great that no trial on earth will be of any significance. up till then God will not permit anything to happen to you or anyone, which they are not able to endure, which can separate them from God and eternal life.

[PaulSacramento]

So the system of rule in heaven is never as on earth where one seeks to dominate the next. The entire universe is governed by this principle, which will dramatically change every relationship, even those of flora and fauna, in the new earth.

So why not just create us there and cut all the crap?

Because anything GIVEN is never valued as much as something earned.
Just ask anyone, Adam and Eve for example.

[RickD]

So the system of rule in heaven is never as on earth where one seeks to dominate the next. The entire universe is governed by this principle, which will dramatically change every relationship, even those of flora and fauna, in the new earth.

So why not just create us there and cut all the crap?

Because anything GIVEN is never valued as much as something earned.
Just ask anyone, Adam and Eve for example.

Eternal life is the most valued thing in my life. And that was given to me, gracefully, by God. I value that gift, given by God, more than anything I have ever earned.

[PaulSacramento]

So the system of rule in heaven is never as on earth where one seeks to dominate the next. The entire universe is governed by this principle, which will dramatically change every relationship, even those of flora and fauna, in the new earth.

So why not just create us there and cut all the crap?

Because anything GIVEN is never valued as much as something earned.
Just ask anyone, Adam and Eve for example.

Eternal life is the most valued thing in my life. And that was given to me, gracefully, by God. I value that gift, given by God, more than anything I have ever earned.

Context Rick.
Why do you value eternal life? Christ's gift of salvation?

Outlaw's view that God should have just created us "perfect" or in a state of salvation ( presumably so that we don't have to go through the turmoils and tribulations of life AND so that neither would Christ) takes away the VALUE of something that, unless we can appreciate what it means to have it, will not have the true value God knows it has.

[1over137]

My question is not WHY does death have to be the penalty, It's WHO made death the penalty? The answer is god, god also said if we only obeyed him we'd live forever, but he also gave us free will to choose, then chose the penalty for not choosing to obey him, then so he didn't have to follow through with that penalty, he comes up with the plan to sacrifice part of himself and that will over ride his initial penalty and somehow allow us to still go on sinning but also still be able to live forever.
If he was going to change his rule anyway, why make the first one to begin with? why go through the unnessesary sacrifice? More importantly why praise this god for doing this?

The penalty is in fact what people wanted. God out of their life. That is the penalty, being without God. Seems that is what you want. God out of your life. You call him idiot, not worthy of praise.

We will not go on sining forever.

Please, have a look here http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/e ... ation.html
It think it suits well to your questions.
Here is the appetizer:
I believe that probably the greatest obstacle to people's being able to acknowledge that God exists, and/or to accept Him for Whom He is, is the presence of evil and all of its multitudinous ramifications in the world. I think many feel that God, at best, is exceptionally incompetent in having permitted evil to exist in the first place and, subsequently, in having been unable to stop it; or else, at worst, He is extremely cruel to have tolerated evil in this world throughout human history.

Also, when God created man, he declared it was very good. Where bible says Adam was perfect?

[Starhunter]

He feels about having to sacrifice His own Son, by giving Abram a taste of the experience. When you share your deepest concern with someone, you are giving your heart.

Outlaw write - I totally understand what your saying here but the thing is it's all unneccesary, because it didn't have to be that way, god wasn't forced to sacrifice jesus it was his choice to, he could of decided any other way to forgive, but for some reason he chose a human sacrifice,
Is god held hostage by his own rules or something, and if thats the case then are you saying an all knowing all loving all powerfull god can't make a rule that didn't require a human sacrifice to begin with or does he just dig self mutilation?

The laws of God is what He abides by, because that is who He is, and there is no reason to change who He is.

Say for e.g; the law that says "thou shalt have no other gods before Me" It means that the relationship between you and Him is exclusive and direct, and not indirect or unavailable. It is like a marriage vow to have the one partner only. Every person, angel and intelligent creature has the right to direct access and connection to God. Systems of religion usually have hierarchies in between you and God, even taking the place of God altogether.

But this first law gives you direct access.
This means that all that you want to know, like the Q's you've been asking, He will honor those inquiries, as if there were no other on earth, according to your sincerity and respect for this first commandment. But If you don't respect Him or His name He has the right by this law to dishonor His relationship with you. Fair is fair.
However, it is His impact on your life that has made you want to know, and even frustrated you with religious beliefs, its a good thing.

The proof you need about the Bible etc will come by reading it, and because it is a targeted book of the enemy, make sure you read a version pre 1930, and not any of the Alexandrian extractions. The old King James Bible is virtually word for word of the oldest texts. There are many today who will argue otherwise, but if you have a good knowledge of scripture, you'll be able to tell who's telling the truth by what you read. The Alexandrian extractions have deleted essential truths about Christ.

Then you may also want proof about your relationship with God and whether it is real or not, you can get that by the experience of answered prayer. If you don't know what to pray for or how to, just ask God.

I still want to talk about why and how it was necessary for the sacrifice, because I don't understand it.

[outlaw]

Adam and Eve were created with the ability to love. It never had to end. It was possible to do so, and it was also not possible to do so, depending on their decision. Adam and Eve had no propensities, desires or tendencies to sin whatsoever. That same condition will exist in heaven and in the new earth.
They sinned because they could, and for no other reason.
A murderer was asked why he did it and he answered because I can.
It is immature to do something purely because one can.

People get confused with the question of free choice, because their sinful habits are so strong that they cannot see themselves (or Adam and Eve) existing without sinning. And they deem this as having no choice because of the powerful sway sin has over them.

In regards to God wiping out millions in the flood including their offspring, the conditions that prompt God to act in this way, are extreme, and never anything like your everyday scenario, not by a long shot.
When Lot lived in Sodom before they and their off spring were incinerated, the men of the city felt they had the right to pack rape and even kill every man that visited that city. When two angels were threatened with the same treatment, they were blinded, and incinerated later.
The people before the flood were beyond help of any kind, and they were in the process of destroying themselves in a manner far crueler than drowning.
The heathen nations that God wiped out by the armies of Israel, practiced the most unbelievably vile and cruel rituals on themselves and especially their children. The details of those cruel practices are known today.

Their babies were the result of select breeding where the sensitive child with any signs of a good conscience was put through tests designed to kill them. One common practice, was to cause the child to jump through a fire, and if it balked, it would be sacrificed by placing it onto the red hot arms of a bronze statue of a god...

In regards to making a judgement about the character and existence of God, apart from the Bible and religions, life itself can only be of any value if the commandments of God are kept. They are workable and very good laws.
The greatest evidence of God and the Bible are these laws, without which life cannot exist.

What happened to these peoples free will? when i ask why does god allow suffering i usually get the response because he won't interfer in our free will. Which by the way is the lamest answer ever, if im suffering and dying im not really concerned about my free will being violated at that point and if god apparently intervenes id like to think my free will isn't holding it back.

This is where christians and myself differ, you think that there's a time and a context in which committing such attrocities are acceptable, where as i don't, theres no situation i can think of that it's ok to keep slaves and ok to beat them as along as you don't kill them.


You would think that Jesus and the New Testament would have a different view of slavery, but slavery is still approved of in the New Testament, as the following passages show.

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)

In the following parable, Jesus clearly approves of beating slaves even if they didn't know they were doing anything wrong.

The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

Can you tell me in what context would it be ok to keep slaves?

Also who decides that gods goodness is good?

[B. W.]

Well if you can suspend disbelief that much to actually believe a glodal flood occured than you'll quite frankly believe anything, did you know i have a 60ft purple and pink polka dot dragon that lives in my garage an it shoots lightning bolts out of its eyes?

Did jesus death actually stop anybody from betraying slandering etc? no we still do, all it apparently did was magically prevent god from having to punish us for it while we still go on doing those things so whats the point of it?

You see, Jesus came to rescue us from our ungrateful hating unloving, selfish ways...

Are you saying theres no other way to become less selfish or more loving or grateful? the only way possible to learn these things is through accepting that jesus was sacrificed? Because i can prove otherwise very very easily some of the most loving caring unselfish people i know and also historical figres aren't christians, or are you so self righteous you believe the only reason they are is because YOUR version of god allowed them to be throught jesus?

Outlaw, can you see your contradiction - you say we all betray, slander, etc in one breath and then the next claim there are those so caring and unselfish people - how can that be when you said - we all do?

I bet all those loving caring folks and all those who do good out there at one time had lustfully impure thoughts, lied, cheated, slandered, during their lifetime - haven't you?

Here is one for you then: You are driving 30 miles over the speed limit in a school zone during school hours. A police officer pulls you over. Try telling him, "...Wait Officer, you can't give me a ticket, I maintain the correct speed limit more than I go over the limit. And - Why just look at all my good, unselfish, caring things I do in the community - how dare you give me a ticket, you can't punish me!"

My how you mock! but you only mock on occasion but not all the time...

Well first off, you would be the first one complaining that this is a violation of human rights and promoting slavery. Wouldn't you?

No i wouldn't i'd be a happy robot with the perception i was freely choosing, i'd have nothing to complain about. I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between me actually making choices and me thinking id made the choice, if i was programmed to think that every choice that was made for me felt like id made it myself.

So you think you are not responsible - so after the Police Officer pulls you over for speeding in that school zone mentioned above you would tell the officer, "No you can't give me a ticket, Officer, God predestined me to speed, so write him the ticket!

Isn't that what you are saying?

So God justly permitted free moral agency for without doing so, he would be unjust. God is not unjust.

I get told all the time "who are you to judge god?" So who are you to judge god as just? On what basis do you decide gods goodness as good?

Its not just to kill man woman and child for sinning when he could of created us incapable of sin or without the desire to sin to begin with?
If he creates everything, then he aslo created the desire eve felt to disobey him. Isaiah 45:7

What basis does the police officer have in giving you a ticket and arresting you for reckless endangerment? After all, you maintain the correct speed limit more than you speed, You do more caring and unselfish acts than others, and anything you do bad, well is God's fault.

Hate to tell you this, God did create us with the ability not to sin. It is we who left God for our own ways. God hasn't left us. How can there be an incapable without there being an capable first?

To refine precious metals to reach a state of purity takes time and a lot of heat to remove all the dross. What happens if we are living in that refinement process right now, in this life -now - and God finds you dross? Ever thought of that? - Isaiah 45:6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13

On to Melanies flood analogy are you saying humans are gods enemy?

...What if she was right about Melanie, after all melanie is human, she betrays she's ungrateful, she's selfish she's is a sinner right?

Hmmm, and you choose to hate God and Christians so much that you seek to murder our faith, our trust, our own selfless and caring ways?

If that woman thought what you said and as I also mentioned on page 4 , would be based upon her own free choice. The selfless caring act of Melanie would mean nothing to the woman other than she can now take all Melanie owns. What kind of person would that woman be if she answered like you said? Would you like her to be your eternal next door neighbor?

Yes as I mentioned before, the selfless caring act of Christ Jesus on that cross does indeed produces a choice when before there was none!
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[outlaw]

So the system of rule in heaven is never as on earth where one seeks to dominate the next. The entire universe is governed by this principle, which will dramatically change every relationship, even those of flora and fauna, in the new earth.

So why not just create us there and cut all the crap?

That's exactly what God wishes.
Now when should this happen? While someone is halfway to accepting Him, so that they are cut off, or should we wait until everybody has had a full chance?

He has to let the whole battle between good and evil, which is a real one, to come to a head. It involves Satan and the angels as well. Satan has the support of the majority who share his sentiments about God, but there are many who have not made a conscious decision about it, and that will have to culminate in a global situation that causes a clear division between the loyal and disloyal to God.
In the mean time no one is lost because of that delay, rather victories and strength of character are gained.

The rewards are so great that no trial on earth will be of any significance. up till then God will not permit anything to happen to you or anyone, which they are not able to endure, which can separate them from God and eternal life.

Thats my whole point if there's a god that saves and is capable of intervening but chooses to stand by and watch, then thats a god i choose to not want a bar of, it's a god not worthy of my praise, it's an evil god. I choose what i put my faith in and i cannot possibly put it in this type of god i would be crazy to do so.
Why didn't god stand by and watch good and evil play out when he flooded the earth?
Why do believers claim that god saves people if it's so important for him to let the battle of good and evil run?

I won't, like you do, make excuses for this god and perform mental gymnastics in order to hold onto my precious belief that god is just, because when i read where god isn't just then im honest with myself about it i don't use 'cognitive dissonance' (if you don't know what it is look it up)

[Starhunter]

Thats my whole point if there's a god that saves and is capable of intervening but chooses to stand by and watch, then thats a god i choose to not want a bar of, it's a god not worthy of my praise, it's an evil god. I choose what i put my faith in and i cannot possibly put it in this type of god i would be crazy to do so.
Why didn't god stand by and watch good and evil play out when he flooded the earth?
Why do believers claim that god saves people if it's so important for him to let the battle of good and evil run?
I won't, like you do, make excuses for this god and perform mental gymnastics in order to hold onto my precious belief that god is just, because when i read where god isn't just then im honest with myself about it i don't use 'cognitive dissonance' (if you don't know what it is look it up)

If you were God, what would you do right now?

[PaulSacramento]

Thats my whole point if there's a god that saves and is capable of intervening but chooses to stand by and watch, then thats a god i choose to not want a bar of, it's a god not worthy of my praise, it's an evil god. I choose what i put my faith in and i cannot possibly put it in this type of god i would be crazy to do so.
Why didn't god stand by and watch good and evil play out when he flooded the earth?
Why do believers claim that god saves people if it's so important for him to let the battle of good and evil run?

I won't, like you do, make excuses for this god and perform mental gymnastics in order to hold onto my precious belief that god is just, because when i read where god isn't just then im honest with myself about it i don't use 'cognitive dissonance' (if you don't know what it is look it up)

And if that is how YOU view God then I agree that your god is NOT worthy of praise and worship, so don't.
Just realize that this god you have made up is just that, YOUR god.
It isn't mine.
If you do not want a personal relationship with God, which is what it means to be a Christian, then you don't have to have it.
It is really quite simple:
Either We say to GOD, "Thy will be done".
OR
God says to Us, "Thy will be done".

It seems to me that you have already made up your mind and have said to God, "No interested" and God, being God has accepted your rejection and has said to you, " Thy will be done".

Now, being the God that I KNOW He is, I know that He is still there for you if you ever decide to come around BUT if you don't then He will NOT come into your life like a "gang buster".
That is not His way.

You are free to accept or reject Him, the choice is and always has been and always will be yours.

Just make sure you realize WHO and WHAT you are rejecting and WHY, that's all.

[outlaw]

I bet all those loving caring folks and all those who do good out there at one time had lustfully impure thoughts, lied, cheated, slandered, during their lifetime - haven't you?

Yep so what i said 'less' im not claiming these people never do these things. Jesus sacrifice hasn't done a thing and will never do anything to change the fact that people have impure thoughts or lie etc. If it offends god so much then don't create humans capable of having impure thoughts.

So you think you are not responsible - so after the Police Officer pulls you over for speeding in that school zone mentioned above you would tell the officer, "No you can't give me a ticket, Officer, God predestined me to speed, so write him the ticket!

Isn't that what you are saying?

No if that wasthe case it would mean that i knew i wasn't making my own choices, im saying you wouldn't be able to tell the difference because to you it seemed as though youwere making the decissions yourself, so you would accept the fine just like you would if you'd chosen to speed yourself.

Hate to tell you this, God did create us with the ability not to sin. It is we who left God for our own ways. God hasn't left us. How can there be an incapable without there being an capable first?

Im saying why not create us incapable of sin, then he'd never have to sacrifice part of himself? Does he enjoy self mutilation?

To refine precious metals to reach a state of purity takes time and a lot of heat to remove all the dross. What happens if we are living in that refinement process right now, in this life -now - and God finds you dross? Ever thought of that?

Any reason why god couldn't create us in a state of purity from the start? Ever thought of that?

Hmmm, and you choose to hate God and Christians so much that you seek to murder our faith, our trust, our own selfless and caring ways?

Um are you serious !!! Where have i said i hate god or christians? My wife, mother, mother in law and father in law (retired pastor) brother and sister inlaws are christians how dare you tell me who i hate!!
I find it very hard to like people like you, and it has nothing to do with what god you believe in, it's just you as a person. No wonder why people are distancing themselves from religion with christians like you who would want to label themselves as one.
I hate to tell you but faith is not a virtue, believing in things in which theres no evidence for doesn't earn a person respect. We should respect people but not their beliefs, if i believe i have a 60ft dragon in my garage i don't expect you to respect that belief and you shouldn't.
Is the faith in islam a virtue?

Im simply trying to figre out why this god gets praised for sacrificing itself to itself to get around a rule it made itself.

[outlaw]

Thats my whole point if there's a god that saves and is capable of intervening but chooses to stand by and watch, then thats a god i choose to not want a bar of, it's a god not worthy of my praise, it's an evil god. I choose what i put my faith in and i cannot possibly put it in this type of god i would be crazy to do so.
Why didn't god stand by and watch good and evil play out when he flooded the earth?
Why do believers claim that god saves people if it's so important for him to let the battle of good and evil run?
I won't, like you do, make excuses for this god and perform mental gymnastics in order to hold onto my precious belief that god is just, because when i read where god isn't just then im honest with myself about it i don't use 'cognitive dissonance' (if you don't know what it is look it up)

If you were God, what would you do right now?

Create humans that would break my rules then sacrifice my son/self to pay for it but let them go on breaking them, then sit back and watch as people try to figre out what my sacrifice actually achieved.
Become an author and explain in my book that one day ill take the people that say thanks for sacrificing my son/self back to my special place that i could of just put them in from the beginning.
Hey i wouldn't just give it to them for free though they have to first acknowledge i did this and make it clear that they are not worthy of it and thank me for it and worship me. I don't come across as a slight egomaniac do i?