sleep or judgment

[PaulSacramento]

I just don't see any argument for soul sleep, from scripture.

Only the parts in which the dead are described as being asleep.

[Starhunter]

Uh, well:
Eccl. 12:7, "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."

Or you can go here for a quick view:
hter-death

Does the Bible say that spirit means "disembodied entity," as in the link provided?

[PaulSacramento]

Uh, well:
Eccl. 12:7, "then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it."

Or you can go here for a quick view:
hter-death

Does the Bible say that spirit means "disembodied entity," as in the link provided?

Hmmm, I don't think you will find those words in the bible, no.
You will also NOT find the words "soul sleep" either by the way.
The bible does state that the spirit is immaterial.
Luke 24:39

[RickD]

I just don't see any argument for soul sleep, from scripture.

Only the parts in which the dead are described as being asleep.

That's still not a valid argument for soul sleep.

Absent from the body, present with The Lord.

Soul sleep is an unbiblical teaching associated with the Jehovah's Witness cult, and the aberrant seventh day Adventists.

[PaulSacramento]

I just don't see any argument for soul sleep, from scripture.

Only the parts in which the dead are described as being asleep.

That's still not a valid argument for soul sleep.

Absent from the body, present with The Lord.

Soul sleep is an unbiblical teaching associated with the Jehovah's Witness cult, and the aberrant seventh day Adventists.

No, it isn't a valid argument BUT that the dead are referred to as sleeping is very clear and consistent.
What needs to be made clear is what does it mean to say the dead are a sleep.

Lets not forget that the Saudacee's did NOT believe in the resurrection of the dead ( or life after death) because of ( in particular) ECC.

[B. W.]

Say for instance Ezekiel 32:31, the next verse says, God speaking, "For I have caused my terror in the land of the living..." not of the dead. Pharaoh sees his great army demolished.

Then Verse 21, during a battle the strongest warriors are usually the last to go down, they are the ones that "speak out from the midst" of the hell zone. Nothing seems to indicate communicating to the dead. They are yelling to the rest of the living.'

You need to look at the context of Ezekiel 32:19-32 (also note Psalms 9:17) and Ezekiel 32:21 it explains where such are hearing and seeing - very much alive...

Also these verse add clues as well: Ezekiel 26:20, Numbers 16:30,33;, Psalms 28:1, Isaiah 14:11-19

Lastly if they are yelling at the living, then would not that show that they are not asleep? -

Yes of course, living people are not dead or asleep, especially if they are running around on the battle field.

These texts mention things like hell, Sheol, the pit, the earth etc. When people die they go down to the earth, death is like a pit that you don't get out of, unless you are raised through a resurrection either to go to heaven with all the other resurrected saints, or to judgement on this earth at the end of the thousand years.

If the wicked awaiting judgement are alive, then God would not have to resurrect them for judgement.
And if they are suffering already, before the judgement, then that is punishment without a fair trial.

Ezekiel 32:21 specifically mentions the location as Sheol and not the battlefield. Historically those mentioned also passed on years and ages before this chapter was written. Next, you mentioned that it would not be necessary to resurrect such for a future judgment for to do so negates a fair trial. In this you have not considered Revelation 20:11,12,13,14,15 and the great white throne judgment. This is the trial and final sentencing. Mat 25:41 speaks of this time as well too.

Isaiah 24:22 sets for a clear principle that after the proud/unredeemed dies they go to a place to await that trial. This is fitting for Hebrews 9:27 as it mentions judgment happens. Let me explain it like this in illustration of the USA justice system built upon the principles of Judaic/Christian justice. A criminal is caught, taken to the county jail, where the charges are arraigned, and there the criminal awaits trial. Now, tell me how is that denying justice to the criminal to wait in holding until their respective trial? This same principle is found within the bible as God leaves no stone unturned according to his absolute standard of justice. Rev 20:11-15 speak of the trial to come after one spends time in the holding center.

Jesus speaks of an objectively truth based account of the holding center mentioned in Isa 24:22 in Luke 16:19-31 which has to be based upon solid objective fact in order for Jesus to remain sinless, To say he was merely taking a secret swipe at the religious leaders denies objective Truth as Jesus would be guilty of leading folks astray with a lie concerning the afterlife. Eccl 3:22 points toward Jesus who would reveal the afterlife, which he did.

This holding center mentioned in Isa 24:24 is also mentioned elsewhere in many of the verses already posted as well as in Job 26:5-6 where the dead tremble.To tremble expresses cognizance in such a holding center awaiting trial and the 6th verse reveals an uncovering as well too.

So why such a holding place? This is what many, fail to consider. They consider such travail as unjust and overkill. However, I will contend such travail instead brings out the worst in a person as that is the nature of this current place. In fact, evidence of incarceration in WW II Japanese Prison of war camps shows clearly how depraved human nature is made manifest as an living example of what this holding center actually does as the following quote below illustrates.

The camp was an excellent place in which to observe the inner secrets of our own human selves—especially when there were no extras to fall back on and when the thin polish of easy morality and of just dealing was worn off… For one of the peculiar conceits of modern optimism, a conceit which I had fully shared, is the belief that in time of crisis the goodness of men comes forward…Nothing indicates so clearly the fixed belief in the innate goodness of humans as does this confidence that when the chips are down, and we are revealed for what we ‘really are,’ we will all be good to each other. Nothing could be so totally in error. -- Langdon Gilkey, Shantung Compound: The Story of Men and Women Under Pressure (New York: HarperOne, 1966), 92.

See also the Stanford Prison experiment and also See the Milgram Experiment

Even looting occurs during natural disaster and when all social order is dissolved - watch out - the so called goodness of humanity is proved untrue. In the holding center, the true nature of those there are made manifest proving to those there how utterly twisted they really are so that the final judgement trial is complete and none can stand on his or her own merit. That is the nature of the current hell/sheol. It is not rehabilitative, and its torments exposes to those there who and what they are really like to self, others, and God. It is an uncovering...of all thoughts, motives, deeds, words, etc.

That Starhunter is the nature of the holding center. The final judgment sentences these to the big house - lake of fire - where they can do no more harm to self, others, and God. Those in the holding center await the trial. Those found in Jesus escape this and have their lives transformed out of darkness (depravity) during this life preparing us, sealing us for the one to come so we never fall into such a state again.

The nature of the judgement is like this, neither God the Father or the Son pronounce judgement, they only give a recollection of the person's life, as well as the story of the conflict between good and evil since the beginning. As the Bible states "thine own mouth shall either condemn or justify thee."

So the judgement brings about a confession of truth and fairness, and it also becomes very clear to them that they are not fit to enter heaven, their characters would not find peace in heaven let alone eternity. Their own thinking would be torture to them. Just imagine being jealous for eternity, after a few years you would not want to live.

Now re-read what I wrote above so you may gain a better insight by the Holy Spirit into how ones mouth condemns or justifies thee and you own conclusions mirrors what was revealed too.

In regards to hell, the grave and all the other terms used for death, if one believes that human beings have an immortal disembodied spirit or ghost or soul that has consciousness and some kind of mobility and interaction with another kind or physicality, then in essence we have another creation or reality besides the one we live in. Like a ghost picture to everything. Then having that idea, we would naturally apply these thoughts to anything that talks about hell etc, and imagine people talking, having food and being tortured or whatever in that place.

But apart from the pagan parable that Jesus used for the pharisees, there is no text in the Bible which says that man has a part of him that can ghost it. I would like to see just one text that says that after you die you are whisked up to heaven or float down to hell as a disembodied ghost.

And I would like one text that shows that the meaning of these words - spirit/soul/ghost/breath/mind means a disembodied /immortal entity.

I am not suggesting that a doctrine cannot be proven by a set of texts, with combined themes from here and there to make the one idea, but I was just wondering if there are any texts that you feel would say it outright - "man has an immortal entity within."

Job 26:5 used the translated word departed spirits in the NASB and - dead - in the other translations is from the Hebrew word rep̱ā’iym which simply means the disembodied element of a person. It describes the respective spiritual essence of human beings that continues on while the body decays in the ground. Next, The root pictograph reveals more on this. This Hebrew root word pictograph is a picture of a man's head with an open mouth which contains a lot of meaning as follows: Of one receiving just recompense for what was said and done in life, the release of the spirit of man to this judgment, and the uncovering of what is really inside a person as well too.

The pictograph also represents the spirit of man either receiving curative medicine from God or receiving the justice of all the ill one made in mortal life. That is just the pictograph of the first letters of this word. It connect so well with God's revelation of the afterlife in so many scriptures too. The rep̱ā’iym are shades of peoples former lives - their spiritual essence - the real eternal them. They interact with what goes on in the netherworld and in the current hell where their real nature is uncovered (Job 26:6) or if with Jesus reside, reconciled back to God living in the true purpose of God has for them forever.

As for text - look at 2 Sam 14:14 and Eccl 3:11,14. Look upon another clue in the tri-nature of man and woman as well too -1 Th 5:23. There are more but bias can blind the heart to the God of the Living... as to his nature that will not murder the rep̱ā’iym of man as he reneges not on any gift, calling, promise made - note Job 33:4.

Hope this gives you plenty of room for thought...
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[Starhunter]

You will also NOT find the words "soul sleep" either by the way.
The bible does state that the spirit is immaterial.
Luke 24:39

Jesus never used the term "soul sleep," as you said, it's not even in the Bible, the only sleep he referred to was the sleep of death.

The disciples and many people at the time of Christ including the religious leaders, had slipped so far down the track from the truth that they believed many of the pagan doctrines, such as ghosts, spirits etc.When the disciples saw Christ, they thought they saw a ghost, and Jesus talking to them about their perceptions, said "a ghost doesn't have a real body does it?"

To which the believers in ghosts say, "Ah, their must be ghosts then."

[Starhunter]

Ezekiel 32:21 specifically mentions the location as Sheol and not the battlefield.

Location? I thought you can go down to Sheol in any location can't you?.

Historically those mentioned also passed on years and ages before this chapter was written. Next, you mentioned that it would not be necessary to resurrect such for a future judgment for to do so negates a fair trial. In this you have not considered Revelation 20:11,12,13,14,15 and the great white throne judgment.

That is the judgement I was referring to, if they were alive they would not have to be resurrected for this judgement. But they are dead that's why you need a resurrection.

Isaiah 24:22 sets for a clear principle that after the proud/unredeemed dies they go to a place to await that trial. This is fitting for Hebrews 9:27 as it mentions judgment happens. Let me explain it like this in illustration of the USA justice system built upon the principles of Judaic/Christian justice. A criminal is caught, taken to the county jail, where the charges are arraigned, and there the criminal awaits trial. Now, tell me how is that denying justice to the criminal to wait in holding until their respective trial? This same principle is found within the bible as God leaves no stone unturned according to his absolute standard of justice. Rev 20:11-15 speak of the trial to come after one spends time in the holding center.

The righteous dead await the resurrection of the just, does not mean they are in a holding cell. They are dead, as the wicked dead await judgement.

Jesus speaks of an objectively truth based account of the holding center mentioned in Isa 24:22 in Luke 16:19-31 which has to be based upon solid objective fact in order for Jesus to remain sinless,

A parable is not a lie, any more than saying that whenever a farmer sows the grain it is distributed to four different types of ground -making Jesus a liar? Not likely, a parable is just an illustration.

Eccl 3:22 points toward Jesus who would reveal the afterlife, which he did.

This text tells us to enjoy life because that's all we have for the time being, until there is a resurrection and a new world or heaven.
Then the teaching of the future Christ would have to agree with the wisdom He gave Solomon in saying that the dead do not know anything, there is no love or hatred or any work whatsoever done in the grave.

This holding center mentioned in Isa 24:24 is also mentioned elsewhere in many of the verses already posted as well as in Job 26:5-6 where the dead tremble.To tremble expresses cognizance in such a holding center awaiting trial and the 6th verse reveals an uncovering as well too.

The original Hebrew and KJV, just say that dead things are formed in deep water. Today we know that oil is formed under sea rocks due to decay and pressure. Nothing there about a holding center.

So why such a holding place? This is what many, fail to consider. They consider such travail as unjust and overkill. However, I will contend such travail instead brings out the worst in a person as that is the nature of this current place. In fact, evidence of incarceration in WW II Japanese Prison of war camps shows clearly how depraved human nature is made manifest as an living example of what this holding center actually does as the following quote below illustrates.

The integrity of a moral philosophy may stand on its own but it does not prove the holding center.

The camp was an excellent place in which to observe the inner secrets of our own human selves—especially when there were no extras to fall back on and when the thin polish of easy morality and of just dealing was worn off… For one of the peculiar conceits of modern optimism, a conceit which I had fully shared, is the belief that in time of crisis the goodness of men comes forward…Nothing indicates so clearly the fixed belief in the innate goodness of humans as does this confidence that when the chips are down, and we are revealed for what we ‘really are,’ we will all be good to each other. Nothing could be so totally in error. -- Langdon Gilkey, Shantung Compound: The Story of Men and Women Under Pressure (New York: HarperOne, 1966), 92. Even looting occurs during natural disaster and when all social order is dissolved - watch out - the so called goodness of humanity is proved untrue. In the holding center, the true nature of those there are made manifest proving to those there how utterly twisted they really are so that the final judgement trial is complete and none can stand on his or her own merit. That is the nature of the current hell/sheol. It is not rehabilitative, and its torments exposes to those there who and what they are really like to self, others, and God. It is an uncovering...of all thoughts, motives, deeds, words, etc That Starhunter is the nature of the holding center. The final judgment sentences these to the big house - lake of fire - where they can do no more harm to self, others, and God. Those in the holding center await the trial. Those found in Jesus escape this and have their lives transformed out of darkness (depravity) during this life preparing us, sealing us for the one to come so we never fall into such a state again. .

These are details of the holding center, which may be true, but it does not indicate that it exists.

Job 26:5 used the translated word departed spirits in the NASB and - dead - in the other translations is from the Hebrew word rep̱ā’iym which simply means the disembodied element of a person. It describes the respective spiritual essence of human beings that continues on while the body decays in the ground. Next, The root pictograph reveals more on this. This Hebrew root word pictograph is a picture of a man's head with an open mouth which contains a lot of meaning as follows: Of one receiving just recompense for what was said and done in life, the release of the spirit of man to this judgment, and the uncovering of what is really inside a person as well too.

The Hebrew text does not even hint at a disembodied entity, and neither does the KJV. The only thing that may leave the body is the breath of life, which if the Hebrew text ever mentions is referring to.

The pictograph also represents the spirit of man either receiving curative medicine from God or receiving the justice of all the ill one made in mortal life. That is just the pictograph of the first letters of this word. It connect so well with God's revelation of the afterlife in so many scriptures too. The rep̱ā’iym are shades of peoples former lives - their spiritual essence - the real eternal them. They interact with what goes on in the netherworld and in the current hell where their real nature is uncovered (Job 26:6) or if with Jesus reside, reconciled back to God living in the true purpose of God has for them forever.

Verse 6 is related to verse 7. The rest of the chapter is talking about what god spoke to Job about in chapter 38.
The deep sea, the earth, etc are real things, and God is talking about how the earth is held in space etc. It is definitely not talking about the hell scenes you imagine. The forces which God uses to hold the earth are deadly, if you were exposed to them you would go into oblivion. This is another study on its own.

As for text - look at 2 Sam 14:14

It says that God devises means by which to gather banished people.

Eccl 3:11,14.

It says that God made things good and set the world in peoples hearts, and that they should enjoy it. Nothing there about hell, holding centers and disembodied entities.

Look upon another clue in the tri-nature of man and woman as well too -1 Th 5:23

Which of those three can God keep blameless until the return of Christ if you are dead?
Your body decays, the breath or spirit returns to God, and the soul dies with the body. Now it says to keep all three blameless, which means that there is no point in their separation and that such a separation would not consist a person.
There for body soul and spirit combined are a person, but separated are not a person. What pagans believe is that any one of those is an entity. Once again the Bible does not teach separated disembodied entities.

There are more but bias can blind the heart to the God of the Living... as to his nature that will not murder the rep̱ā’iym of man as he reneges not on any gift, calling, promise made - note Job 33:4.

This reaffirms the previous - that God's breath forms or gives life.

Hope this gives you plenty of room for thought...

Yes, and thank you for a comprehensive study, much appreciated. God bless.

[Starhunter]

BW,

Let me tell a little about earth and sky.

I grew up when there were hell fire preachers, who were positively insane, but there were also a lot of very classy Christians, even though they walked on the other side of the road if they were Protestant and Catholic.
Then the world was also filling with the atheistic hedonistic debauchery that came from the French revolution, but in the country, this was generally not heard of.

I read the Bible because it happened to be there.
I lived in a real working world, without the fantasies and doctrines of paganism, as well as a Christian style of pantheism, which by the way the majority of Christians did not buy.

To me God was as real as the stars, and I read about the earthly paradise and its final restoration, and heaven, and the Gospel, and the literal return of Christ. Everything was real to me.

Ghosts, and ghost worlds, and spirits leaving the body, and trying to get back into the body, limbo, eternal torments and a devil ruling in hell, and a host of other things never entered my mind while reading the Bible.
Later in the 1950's some people were knocking on doors saying that Christ had already arrived in 1914, ! and that there will be no literal return of Christ, etc. At that time religions were springing up everywhere, by the end of the 1960's we had dozens of eastern style cults and New Age movements, who also spiritualized everything away into ether worlds and auras. The world of spiritualism, the worship of the deceased, and heathen deities, were on the increase.

I ignored all these beliefs from segregated churches and spiritualist sources, because the Bible, its stories, history and future were real, and the many teachings out there in the nominal churches did not come from the Bible, but from their own traditions handed down from the great persecuting church of the dark ages and the addition of modern spiritualist teachings.

I hope that helps you understand why I resist certain ideas.

[B. W.]

BW,

Let me tell a little about earth and sky.

I grew up when there were hell fire preachers, who were positively insane, but there were also a lot of very classy Christians, even though they walked on the other side of the road if they were Protestant and Catholic.
Then the world was also filling with the atheistic hedonistic debauchery that came from the French revolution, but in the country, this was generally not heard of.

I read the Bible because it happened to be there.
I lived in a real working world, without the fantasies and doctrines of paganism, as well as a Christian style of pantheism, which by the way the majority of Christians did not buy.

To me God was as real as the stars, and I read about the earthly paradise and its final restoration, and heaven, and the Gospel, and the literal return of Christ. Everything was real to me.

Ghosts, and ghost worlds, and spirits leaving the body, and trying to get back into the body, limbo, eternal torments and a devil ruling in hell, and a host of other things never entered my mind while reading the Bible.
Later in the 1950's some people were knocking on doors saying that Christ had already arrived in 1914, ! and that there will be no literal return of Christ, etc. At that time religions were springing up everywhere, by the end of the 1960's we had dozens of eastern style cults and New Age movements, who also spiritualized everything away into ether worlds and auras. The world of spiritualism, the worship of the deceased, and heathen deities, were on the increase.

I ignored all these beliefs from segregated churches and spiritualist sources, because the Bible, its stories, history and future were real, and the many teachings out there in the nominal churches did not come from the Bible, but from their own traditions handed down from the great persecuting church of the dark ages and the addition of modern spiritualist teachings.

I hope that helps you understand why I resist certain ideas.

So I was correct that you were indeed influenced by Christians of the bible beating kind as well as others so mentioned. Now we are making progress as I thought that was why you resist what is in the bible that the Holy Spirit is now trying to teach you. I know of a farmer who did not like another farmer so he planted flax in the Farmers wheat field as a joke. Well, what a mess when combine season came! The devil is like that, he will influence folks and plant tares, anything to hinder a person from coming to the truth. He does so by influence such as you experienced. The thing is, by ignoring things, pride sets in and with that comes the chastisement of the Lord till we let it go.

One can deny what they disagree with because of bad influences of the past left a bad taste in the mouth but in denying a person denies what is really being said about eternal recompense due to pride. Have you thought about that?

As for Job 26:5-6, these verses have nothing to do with how oil is made! Please invest in some bible study tools, dictionaries, word studies and grammars. These will help you immensely and open your understanding.

In fact, Job 26:5-6 from the JPS reads: The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering.
JPS -Jewish Publication Society Bible renders it rather well...

The KJV is in error in its translation of the Hebrew text and not the first time I might add.

Also, Jesus parable of the sower is based upon objective truth many farmers experience as well as knowledge and insights God has. Jesus parables are not cute stories, they are far more, all based upon truth. So is Luke 16:19-31.

Anyways Starhunter be blessed !!
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[Starhunter]

So I was correct that you were indeed influenced by Christians of the bible beating kind as well as others so mentioned. Now we are making progress as I thought that was why you resist what is in the bible that the Holy Spirit is now trying to teach you. I know of a farmer who did not like another farmer so he planted flax in the Farmers wheat field as a joke. Well, what a mess when combine season came! The devil is like that, he will influence folks and plant tares, anything to hinder a person from coming to the truth. He does so by influence such as you experienced. The thing is, by ignoring things, pride sets in and with that comes the chastisement of the Lord till we let it go.

One can deny what they disagree with because of bad influences of the past left a bad taste in the mouth but in denying a person denies what is really being said about eternal recompense due to pride. Have you thought about that?

As for Job 26:5-6, these verses have nothing to do with how oil is made! Please invest in some bible study tools, dictionaries, word studies and grammars. These will help you immensely and open your understanding.

In fact, Job 26:5-6 from the JPS reads: The shades tremble beneath the waters and the inhabitants thereof. 6 The nether-world is naked before Him, and Destruction hath no covering.
JPS -Jewish Publication Society Bible renders it rather well...

The KJV is in error in its translation of the Hebrew text and not the first time I might add.

Also, Jesus parable of the sower is based upon objective truth many farmers experience as well as knowledge and insights God has. Jesus parables are not cute stories, they are far more, all based upon truth. So is Luke 16:19-31.

Anyways Starhunter be blessed !!
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The home visits from religious groups came well after I had read the Bible. The churches had no chance at influencing me by traditions and false teachings. Besides I can remember only sitting down once and listening, and decided then and there it was like talking to a brick wall.

Forgetting whether people ghost it after dying, what would be the spiritual bonus of believing in such a doctrine anyway?
What is the need for it, what are its implications, how important is it?

[PaulSacramento]

You will also NOT find the words "soul sleep" either by the way.
The bible does state that the spirit is immaterial.
Luke 24:39

Jesus never used the term "soul sleep," as you said, it's not even in the Bible, the only sleep he referred to was the sleep of death.

The disciples and many people at the time of Christ including the religious leaders, had slipped so far down the track from the truth that they believed many of the pagan doctrines, such as ghosts, spirits etc.When the disciples saw Christ, they thought they saw a ghost, and Jesus talking to them about their perceptions, said "a ghost doesn't have a real body does it?"

To which the believers in ghosts say, "Ah, their must be ghosts then."

The belief in spirits is NOT a pagan notion, it is present in the OT also, very present.

I think you may need to research things a bit more and need to look at these doctrines you seem to be agreeing with ( some of them seem to be inferences by the Jehovah's witnesses from what I can tell).

[Lonewolf]

I read and understand the same way a lot of what starhunter has understood, so he's not alone on this. I think the church(es) have influenced a lot of how people interpret what is written and really do not look at things any other way. How else can there be a resurrection from the dead if you don't really die?

[RickD]

I read and understand the same way a lot of what starhunter has understood, so he's not alone on this. I think the church(es) have influenced a lot of how people interpret what is written and really do not look at things any other way. How else can there be a resurrection from the dead if you don't really die?

The first death is our corruptible bodies that die. Then with the resurrection, we will have an incorruptible body that will not die.



1 Corinthians 15:35-49
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of [k]something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown [l]a perishable body, it is raised [m]an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, [n]earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, [o]we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

[Lonewolf]

I read and understand the same way a lot of what starhunter has understood, so he's not alone on this. I think the church(es) have influenced a lot of how people interpret what is written and really do not look at things any other way. How else can there be a resurrection from the dead if you don't really die?

The first death is our corruptible bodies that die. Then with the resurrection, we will have an incorruptible body that will not die.



1 Corinthians 15:35-49
35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of [k]something else. 38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown [l]a perishable body, it is raised [m]an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, [n]earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, [o]we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

I understand Rick ^ ^ the raised new body will be imperishable and raised in glory, a spiritual body., but it does say that it will be raised, therefore the question becomes raised from what and at what time? There is a raising from the dead, so what does death means? And there is a body to be had, so what kind of body will the person have in a new earth and new heavens? What kind of body is needed to walk in paradise? And is everyone absent in the flesh already having fun up there?