Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

[1over137]

The only happiness the crucifixion provides is the happiness that comes with knowing you can still sin and not be punished for it because Jesus took gods beating instead, when someone else gets punished for something I did, that doesn't make me happy. It might make you happy but I that's why I find the redemption sacrifice thing a little disturbing. Celebrating a human blood sacrifice isn't my idea of a good time, ya know what I mean.

This you think about Christians?



You also mentioned Old Testament, commandments, and God's 'jealousy'.
If you are interested in getting the answers the book by Paul Copan: Is God a Moral Monster is a great one. I am in the middle of reading the kindle edition.

Why does the sacrifice of jesus fill you with joy then?

I will say little bit more to this.

I am not happy that Jesus had to suffer. I am not happy that we-people have crucified him, beaten him and what not.
I am not happy that humanity moved away from God and that God had to come down to earth. I rather this never had to happen. But what can I do? He came here, he did for us what he did for us. Am I to reject it? Am I to say: "No thank you, I would be coward."

Instead I say: "Well, thank you, for doing this for me. Thank you for coming down and rescuing me."

The joy is that now I walk with him in my life. I can compare my life 3 years and more ago with my life now. That is the real joy: to be with him.

[outlaw]

At the end, I am making my own mind. I am able to reason. Even God encourages that. "Come now, let us reason together."

Well, I need other books. I need them because I do not live in era thousand years ago. I am curious about it so that I could better understand those times.

Seems as though your looking for some conformation so you can feel better about what you already want to think is true.
Did Paul Copan live in the Era?
The thing is, understanding those times doesn't really matter, if it's wrong today it was wrong then.
There is no context in which to excuse god and say he was justified in allowing people to keep people as property back then.
These were gods instructions, instructions for keeping slaves, instructions for slaves themselves, If this god is unchanging, if this god is the same one as the new testament god then how do you reconcile this?

If you read this about an opposing god in their holy book you'd turn on it in a second, you wouldn't want anything to do with it, why give this one any special treatment? if you weren't already emotionally invested in it you wouldn't, you'd call it what it is, you wouldn't need someone else to apologise for it, you'd make up your own mind on your own.

The god of the old testament was a jealous petty unjust egotistical maniac, so if god was a bloodthirsty maniac back then, he still is its same god or does he change his attitude due to social conditions?
It seems like Jesus just had a better PR team.

[outlaw]

I am not happy that Jesus had to suffer. I am not happy that we-people have crucified him, beaten him and what not.
I am not happy that humanity moved away from God and that God had to come down to earth. I rather this never had to happen. But what can I do?

Well you could ask yourself or god why if it had the ability to create the universe and humans any way it liked, did it choose to create it in a way that it would require it to send its only child to earth as a sacrifice in order for it to forgive the humans it created.
So i assume you think that jesus was an afterthought he wasn't part of gods original plan correct?

Hypothetically if you could go back and bribe pontius pilate to stop the crucifixion would you do it?

[1over137]

At the end, I am making my own mind. I am able to reason. Even God encourages that. "Come now, let us reason together."

Well, I need other books. I need them because I do not live in era thousand years ago. I am curious about it so that I could better understand those times.

Seems as though your looking for some conformation so you can feel better about what you already want to think is true.
Did Paul Copan live in the Era?
The thing is, understanding those times doesn't really matter, if it's wrong today it was wrong then.
There is no context in which to excuse god and say he was justified in allowing people to keep people as property back then.
These were gods instructions, instructions for keeping slaves, instructions for slaves themselves, If this god is unchanging, if this god is the same one as the new testament god then how do you reconcile this?

If you read this about an opposing god in their holy book you'd turn on it in a second, you wouldn't want anything to do with it, why give this one any special treatment? if you weren't already emotionally invested in it you wouldn't, you'd call it what it is, you wouldn't need someone else to apologise for it, you'd make up your own mind on your own.

The god of the old testament was a jealous petty unjust egotistical maniac, so if god was a bloodthirsty maniac back then, he still is its same god or does he change his attitude due to social conditions?
It seems like Jesus just had a better PR team.

- it may seem to you, but my interest is mostly searching the truth. About feeling better: well, I try to not be affected by my feelings, desires, wantings in searching the truth. On the other hand, it seems that you need to persuade us about your views so that you could feel better about rejecting God.

- I prefer having historical context. To your other questions: I rather finish the book and have some thought.

- and to your emotional blames of God: it reminds me the book. You sound like new atheists there.

[Starhunter]

There is one bit of research you may not have done, you have not tested what would happen if you submitted to Vishnu and what lies on the other side.
Do you see how silly it is?

Ten commandments, Which ones?
if were talking about exodus 20 then the first 4 are just commandments of a jealous vain and vindictive god who threatens to punish unto the third and forth generations,...
The other 6, well the fact that some people need these to be written down is quite scary, i mean if the only thing stopping you from doing these things is that god doesn't like you doing them then that says more about you than anything, (i'm not saying this is the case with you im just saying)
Do one to others, pretty much covers the last 6...
There is nothing inspiring about these commandments in fact there are 613 do's and dont's in the bible why just pick 10?
Maybe because the most of the other 603 are utterly absurd and embarrassing to admit that your god would even mention them.

Ill pay for my sins however god chooses.
But how are you going to pay for yours since Jesus already has for you?

The trouble with the other gods is that they are dead, statues, or a name, or just Satan.

The only commandments God wrote were the ten in Exodus 20. They are the pinnacle of moral law, and basically say Love God and other human beings as yourself. The other laws were written by Moses, as instructed by God for civil and religious order, in a theocracy.
If love is not the motive for keeping those laws then it is not keeping them. Faith that works by love, or trust in Christ is fulfilling that law.
It is very different than spilling some milk on a smiling metal.

Now about 3rd and 4th generation, careful reading shows that it does not say "Visiting the sinners and punishing them for their father's sins" It says "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children" He visits the problem and not the victims.
So if you had your father's iniquity passed on by a bad trait in you, God will in fairness to you, visit your father's iniquity that is upon you, so that you can get rid of it, and not be stuck with it. And God will visit the iniquity until it is gone - usually more than one generation. The next verse says "and showing mercy..." does not say "but showing mercy..." because the reward is built into the success of His visitation of iniquity.

You see how a hurried biased opinion, misses a wonderful promise?

In regards to paying for my sins, God has already paid for mine before I was born, so I don't have much of an option there.

And He already paid for yours too, so you cannot pay for your sins either in this life, but if you persist, of course you can on the judgement day.
At the moment God has not chosen for you to pay for your sins, but in the very end, if you wish to die for your sins...God will have no pleasure in your death at all, but rather sorrow of an intensity no one can know.

[1over137]

I am not happy that Jesus had to suffer. I am not happy that we-people have crucified him, beaten him and what not.
I am not happy that humanity moved away from God and that God had to come down to earth. I rather this never had to happen. But what can I do?

Well you could ask yourself or god why if it had the ability to create the universe and humans any way it liked, did it choose to create it in a way that it would require it to send its only child to earth as a sacrifice in order for it to forgive the humans it created.

I will not repeat myself over and over. I said something to this some pages back.

So i assume you think that jesus was an afterthought he wasn't part of gods original plan correct?

That's not what I think.

Hypothetically if you could go back and bribe pontius pilate to stop the crucifixion would you do it?

Simon Peter having a sword wanted to defend Jesus when soldiers came for him. Jesus told him to put his sword into its sheath. So, I would not bribe pontius pilate.

[outlaw]

I am not happy that Jesus had to suffer. I am not happy that we-people have crucified him, beaten him and what not.
I am not happy that humanity moved away from God and that God had to come down to earth. I rather this never had to happen. But what can I do?

Well you could ask yourself or god why if it had the ability to create the universe and humans any way it liked, did it choose to create it in a way that it would require it to send its only child to earth as a sacrifice in order for it to forgive the humans it created.

I will not repeat myself over and over. I said something to this some pages back.

So i assume you think that jesus was an afterthought he wasn't part of gods original plan correct?

That's not what I think.

Hypothetically if you could go back and bribe pontius pilate to stop the crucifixion would you do it?

Simon Peter having a sword wanted to defend Jesus when soldiers came for him. Jesus told him to put his sword into its sheath. So, I would not bribe pontius pilate.

Well if jesus sacrifice was part of gods plan all along why are you pissed at people and saying your not happy that jesus had to suffer and not happy god had to come down to earth? It's GODS PLAN isn't it are you unhappy at god for his plan?
It's not humans fault god planned all this for jesus.
You yourself if you could wouldn't of stopped the crucifixion you would of stood by and watched it's the same thing with sin, sin had to come into the world or there would be no story of jesus, there would be no need for a sacrifice. It was never intended for adam and eve to not fall because then we'd have no christianity, it's a self fulfilling story. Sin and sacrifice are required for christianity your god planned it this way, if jesus was planned then sin was too. So why are you mad at humans?

The bible would read like this otherwise. In the beginning there was nothing and god made the universe and it was perfect then god made adam and eve and they were perfect god told them not to eat from the tree and they didn't so they went on living perfectly forever the end.

[outlaw]

There is one bit of research you may not have done, you have not tested what would happen if you submitted to Vishnu and what lies on the other side.
Do you see how silly it is?

Ten commandments, Which ones?
if were talking about exodus 20 then the first 4 are just commandments of a jealous vain and vindictive god who threatens to punish unto the third and forth generations,...
The other 6, well the fact that some people need these to be written down is quite scary, i mean if the only thing stopping you from doing these things is that god doesn't like you doing them then that says more about you than anything, (i'm not saying this is the case with you im just saying)
Do one to others, pretty much covers the last 6...
There is nothing inspiring about these commandments in fact there are 613 do's and dont's in the bible why just pick 10?
Maybe because the most of the other 603 are utterly absurd and embarrassing to admit that your god would even mention them.

Ill pay for my sins however god chooses.
But how are you going to pay for yours since Jesus already has for you?

The trouble with the other gods is that they are dead, statues, or a name, or just Satan.

The only commandments God wrote were the ten in Exodus 20. They are the pinnacle of moral law, and basically say Love God and other human beings as yourself. The other laws were written by Moses, as instructed by God for civil and religious order, in a theocracy.
If love is not the motive for keeping those laws then it is not keeping them. Faith that works by love, or trust in Christ is fulfilling that law.
It is very different than spilling some milk on a smiling metal.

Now about 3rd and 4th generation, careful reading shows that it does not say "Visiting the sinners and punishing them for their father's sins" It says "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children" He visits the problem and not the victims.
So if you had your father's iniquity passed on by a bad trait in you, God will in fairness to you, visit your father's iniquity that is upon you, so that you can get rid of it, and not be stuck with it. And God will visit the iniquity until it is gone - usually more than one generation. The next verse says "and showing mercy..." does not say "but showing mercy..." because the reward is built into the success of His visitation of iniquity.

You see how a hurried biased opinion, misses a wonderful promise?

In regards to paying for my sins, God has already paid for mine before I was born, so I don't have much of an option there.

And He already paid for yours too, so you cannot pay for your sins either in this life, but if you persist, of course you can on the judgement day.
At the moment God has not chosen for you to pay for your sins, but in the very end, if you wish to die for your sins...God will have no pleasure in your death at all, but rather sorrow of an intensity no one can know.

I think it threatens you to love god, why is he so insecure about people not loving him?

The last time i checked i didn't see jesus walking around, and how do gods die lets think about it, the only way an immaterial god can die is if people stop believing in it, because gods only exists in peoples minds. Once you stop believing it exists and stop talking about it as if its real it vanishes because gods are just labels that people put on things when they have no better explanation or can't think of an alternative. We don't know how the universe got here therefore god did it, my cancer disappeared don't know how else it would happen therefore it must of been god.

[1over137]

It's GODS PLAN isn't it are you unhappy at god for his plan?
It's not humans fault god planned all this for jesus.

God foreknew the fall of humans.

You yourself if you could wouldn't of stopped the crucifixion you would of stood by and watched it's the same thing with sin if sin had to come into the world or there would be no story of jesus there would be no need for a sacrifice. It was never intended for adam and eve to not fall because then we'd have no christianity, it's a self fulfilling story. Sin and sacrifice are required for christianity your god planned it this way, if jesus was planned then sin was too. So why are you mad at humans?

These are only your claims:
- that it was never intended for adam and eve to not fall
- that sin was planned

The bible would read like this otherwise. In the beginning there was nothing and god made the universe and it was perfect then god made adam and eve and they were perfect god told them not to eat from the tree and they didn't so they went on living perfectly forever the end.

Well, I need to go now. I have other duties.
If I have something I could tell you that would be helping for you, I will get back.

But I am sorry, I am only at the beginning of my Christian journey. I may not have answers others may have.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Wow, you Christians are a pretty dense bunch! Did you not read what this former atheist said:

As I read these post, I want to say to all responding to outlaw - a hearty well done! You answered many of the things Outlaw mentioned very spot on. However, please understand that folks that hold Outlaw's views think God is petty, mean, cruel, and in this are absolved of their own pettiness. I used to think this way as a young atheist long ago and even used the same form of argument against Christians.

I am also a former atheist and I can assure you that outlaw will not consider any of your arguments in favor of God. Debating with an atheist is like playing chess with a monkey: no matter how good you are, the monkey will knock over all the pieces, defecate on the board and claim victory.

FL

[RickD]

Guys and gals,

FL is right. As well-intentioned as your posts are, they're falling on ears with fingers stuck in them. Outlaw has shown no indication that he is actually here to learn anything. Every response given to him, is met with either an attack on God, or an attack on a straw man god. He takes scripture out of context so he can attack something that isn't true. Outlaw is set in his thinking, and is here only to argue, not to listen with an open mind. My advice to you all is to join me in praying for outlaw. Only God can change his heart.

Or continue wasting your time talking to someone who is doing this:

[1over137]

Wow, you Christians are a pretty dense bunch! Did you not read what this former atheist said:

As I read these post, I want to say to all responding to outlaw - a hearty well done! You answered many of the things Outlaw mentioned very spot on. However, please understand that folks that hold Outlaw's views think God is petty, mean, cruel, and in this are absolved of their own pettiness. I used to think this way as a young atheist long ago and even used the same form of argument against Christians.

I am also a former atheist and I can assure you that outlaw will not consider any of your arguments in favor of God. Debating with an atheist is like playing chess with a monkey: no matter how good you are, the monkey will knock over all the pieces, defecate on the board and claim victory.

FL

Roger, thank you for reminding.

I also think of other Christians. I do not only respond because of outlaw. I enjoyed reading Starhunter's posts and he probably enjoyed mine.

Maybe I have my crossing lines further than is wise. I do not know. I just wanted to give it a try. But to be honest, my patience was coming to an end.

[outlaw]

Wow, you Christians are a pretty dense bunch! Did you not read what this former atheist said:

As I read these post, I want to say to all responding to outlaw - a hearty well done! You answered many of the things Outlaw mentioned very spot on. However, please understand that folks that hold Outlaw's views think God is petty, mean, cruel, and in this are absolved of their own pettiness. I used to think this way as a young atheist long ago and even used the same form of argument against Christians.

I am also a former atheist and I can assure you that outlaw will not consider any of your arguments in favor of God. Debating with an atheist is like playing chess with a monkey: no matter how good you are, the monkey will knock over all the pieces, defecate on the board and claim victory.

FL

This isn't a debate I'm trying to understand why Christians even after they admit that god is only saving them from god, still choose to call this loving. Im interested to hear the answers, I don't have to agree with them, and most of the time they prompt further questions, in the mean time I hope I can help Christians think about why they believe, why do they have faith in this particular god and not another, what makes this one different and what is it thats telling me it is?. Do I treat this one with the same level of skepticism as I do the others and why not? why do I accept what it says in one holy book but reject it in another?
I think it's healthy sometimes to challenge yourself, to not be complacent even with the things you think your certain of.
The minute you start to believe you've found the truth is the minute you lose because that's when you think you can stop, stop looking, stop asking questions, that's when you start blocking out other possible truths other information that's when you start to pretend to be certain about things your uncertain of.

[outlaw]

Guys and gals,

FL is right. As well-intentioned as your posts are, they're falling on ears with fingers stuck in them. Outlaw has shown no indication that he is actually here to learn anything. Every response given to him, is met with either an attack on God, or an attack on a straw man god. He takes scripture out of context so he can attack something that isn't true. Outlaw is set in his thinking, and is here only to argue, not to listen with an open mind. My advice to you all is to join me in praying for outlaw. Only God can change his heart.

Or continue wasting your time talking to someone who is doing this:

Well that's why I'm asking questions that's why I'm here, if you think I take things out of context then set me straight because I want to know, having an open mind doesn't mean you have to agree with every explanation you hear. I'm still yet to hear a logical explanation whats so great about god saving you from god. There's only been one person honest enough to admit that its the case so far.
I get told that suffering brings patience and strength, then when i ask how does a child that suffers for its whole life and dies at the age of 3 learn patience and gain strength? I get no answer.
You can't claim your god is loving or god hears prayers and intervenes then when someone points out where god isn't so loving where god isn't acting morally or where god doesn't intervene you want to end the conversation and attack the person that's raising these problems by saying I've taken things out of context i hate god and say I'm sticking my fingers in my ears.
Why do you now want to run away from this? let's actually sort this out and find out if I am taking things out of context, are you afraid I might be right?

[1over137]

Find your some answers here http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-problem-of-evil