What would have happened had Adam never sinned?

[Starhunter]

Here's the question: COULD Adam and Eve, given the choices they had and free will they were given, have REMAINED sinless? I say NO! Unless God had created them INCAPABLE of sinning, as basically robots programmed to never do - or be ABLE to do - anything more than He programmed them for. Because unless transformed by God, I would think all created beings would eventually sin, that only God has always remained sinless.

And here's a few questions concerning the angels that were NOT part of the rebellion led by Lucifer: Do the angels currently with the Lord in Heaven EVER sin? And even though it's Heaven, we know, due to the Luciferian Rebellion, that there WAS once sin there. And so, how can ANY of Heaven's present Angels - whom apparently have free will - in their own power, NEVER sin?

Thoughts?

Is sin inevitable because of free choice?

[Philip]

Domenic: I won't be saved until I pass the final test at the end of the 1,000 year rule of Jesus. I will be perfect, but yes, a perfect person can sin...thus I won't be saved until I pass that final test...which means, none of us are yet saved.

Philip: This is unScriptural!

Domen: How do you find this Unscriptual?

One's salvation begins at the very moment of repentence, faith and belief and was secured at the Cross - NOT at some future point. A VALIDATION as to whether one is truly saved happens later.

[Philip]

Starhunter: Is sin inevitable because of free choice?

No. Jesus had free choice and yet He remained sinless. While the Bible is silent about whether angels residing in Heaven can sin, we do know that a third of the angels in Heaven rebelled with Lucifer. What other beings (in Heaven and other spiritual or physical dimensions did perhaps God create, and are THEY sinless? These are unknown. But UNLESS God CREATED beings INCAPABLE of sin - or they have never been presented with sinful choices - then no created being can remain sinless. Why? Because ONLY God is truly Holy and sinless - we have no information to the contrary. And all other beings are created, and thus are FROM God but are not themselves God and Holy as He is.

[Starhunter]

I think the angels were presented with sinful choices and that there was a struggle in heaven over these issues.

Adam and Eve, had a choice to sin with the forbidden fruit. There is a reason for this available choice, which has nothing to do with sin and everything to do with love.

God talked to them about it.

Adam and Eve recognized their Father when they were created, they loved Him as their parent and maker, but as they were not fully aware of their independence, the realization of which would have matured their love, their love could only be complete with an acknowledgement of freedom and independence as separate beings.

A child born to earthly parents grows up, and eventually away from them, and then when it has its own mind and responsibilities, as an adult, it will no longer love as a child but as an adult. Some men never leave their Mummy and Daddy, and so fail at marriage.

Separation does not include murdering the parents, it is a continuation of love. So sin has no place, necessity, inevitability or notion in regards to freedom, independence and mature love.

[Philip]

I think the angels were presented with sinful choices and that there was a struggle in heaven over these issues.

Clearly so. But the question is do the angels NOW in Heaven sin. Or did God perhaps justify those that did NOT take part in the rebellion? Because, for those angels, it wasn't a question of GAINING Heaven or trusting in God's reality, His power, love or ability - they had powerfully seen those attributes gloriously displayed. They had lived in His very presence. As the angels that rebelled COULD sin, what possible sinful choices did they have before them, living in Heaven with God? Wanting to be their own gods, to individually or collectively take God's place? Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

But as all Christians will one day be transformed to no longer sin, is it possible that the angels that remain in God's presence have been similarly transformed? Really, there's a lot about angels we don't know. Are they ALL male? Were they created in mature ("adult") in form? Sorry for the bunny trail.

[Starhunter]

Angels are neither male or female, and they can sin if they choose. There is never a time when free creatures cannot sin.

The idea that sin cannot be helped comes from the experience of sinners and their definition of what sin is.
Sin is not compulsory to those in Christ, but it is not their business to measure and manage their own spiritual status, which is often the cause of sin. I John 3:9.

The only duty a Christian has in the line of salvation is to examine whether they are living by the Life of Christ or the sparks of their own kindling.

To dismiss the law of God - the ten commandments given to Moses, is to underestimate the ability of Christ to prevent sin in the sinner. Matt 5:19 says that whoever teaches that the commandments are invalid will invalidate his place in heaven.

To worship a Christ that cannot save from sin is to worship the anti Christ. I John 3:8 2:5, It's not complex, because love is the fulfillment of the law. That love comes when Christ is trusted, and when the clamoring of spiritual self establishment is silenced. I'm probably way off topic by now. Sorry.

[Philip]

Angels are neither male or female, and they can sin if they choose. There is never a time when free creatures cannot sin.

Well, ALL angels in Scripture are assigned a masculine reference. And in every incidence that they appear on earth is in a male form. As for free creatures never sinning - in Heaven we will also be free creatures that do not sin - because we will have been transformed. So, have the angels not part of the rebellion also been transformed? As how could they remain without sin unless God has transformed those loyal since the rebellion? Because as they at least WERE capable of sin, are we to believe that any UNTRANSFORMED created being - spiritual or not, even angels - can totally resist sinning - in THEIR OWN power? How could they not sin? But this brings up a question of whether a sinful being could stand in the presence of God. Of course, the rebels were thrown out of Heaven, but they sinned while still in God's presence.

Satan - the Father of Lies, the author of evil - post rebellion - HAS stood in God's presence: (Job 1): "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them." And after conversing about Job, "Satan went out from the presence of the Lord." So, a sinful creature has stood in God's presence.

[Starhunter]

Good point about standing in God's presence as sinners.

The angels lived in the presence of God, totally exposed to His full love, some have never ceased being there, others chose not to be in it, shutting love out, but the fullness of love, not a shadow of love that we experience.

They became desensitized to Love, and stand in HIs presence numbed out,
but creatures like us who have never seen the light, would be killed by love so great, because we need it so much and still have the capacity to take it in. It's not that love is deadly, it's just too much to bear in one hit. Like coming out of a dark room into full sunlight.
Our need for love is the cause of immediate panic when our sinfulness is realized in contrast. A panic which kills us.

But the whole point is to have all sin and guilt removed from our conscience now, so that when we see Him we won't be shocked. Hebrews 4:15,16
Hebrews 10:2, 9:14.
When the unrepentant and faithless see Christ in the sky they panic and flee long before He reaches earth.

[Starhunter]

Starhunter: Is sin inevitable because of free choice?

No. Jesus had free choice and yet He remained sinless. While the Bible is silent about whether angels residing in Heaven can sin, we do know that a third of the angels in Heaven rebelled with Lucifer. What other beings (in Heaven and other spiritual or physical dimensions did perhaps God create, and are THEY sinless? These are unknown. But UNLESS God CREATED beings INCAPABLE of sin - or they have never been presented with sinful choices - then no created being can remain sinless. Why? Because ONLY God is truly Holy and sinless - we have no information to the contrary. And all other beings are created, and thus are FROM God but are not themselves God and Holy as He is.

I'm not sure how a creature could be made incapable of sin and still be free, but are you talking about the propensities to sin because of our inherited fallen natures?

If so, then yes, those pressures to be lazy and sin, those tendencies and weaknesses will be removed when Christ returns, when the "corruptible puts on the incorruptible, and the mortal puts on immortality." I Corinthians 15:53.

But while we live in a poor spiritual state, Christ's victory is ours to claim by faith, and we walk in newness of life, no longer victims of sin, but overcoming sin, by remaining in touch with God. Matthew 5:3.

There is a text which says that "His mercies are renewed every morning" we can claim that, and have victory on a daily basis.
And if we sin, as we do, we talk to Him about them and leave them behind.

Some victories are not gained overnight, but months and even years, but there is never any condemnation to those who walk after the spirit and not after the world.

You already know this, but I want any reader to be fully convinced of this as it is a matter of life and death.

[Lonewolf]

"I won't be saved until I pass the final test at the end of the 1,000 year rule of Jesus. I will be perfect, but yes, a perfect person can sin...thus I won't be saved until I pass that final test...which means, none of us are yet saved.

This is unScriptural!

How do you find this Unscriptual? We will have a final test on a perfect earth, in a perfect body...Satan will be let lose for a short time. What do you think will happen if we fail that test?.

So in essence, for a thousand years we will live under the direct government of our Lord, but yet, even after that period of time in paradise, we will still be subject to sinning again?

And who sinned first, mankind or Lucifer?

[RickD]

And who sinned first, mankind or Lucifer?

Lucifer. Otherwise he wouldn't have tempted Eve.

[Philip]

And who sinned first, mankind or Lucifer?



Lucifer. Otherwise he wouldn't have tempted Eve.

And he wouldn't have been slumming and prowling earth up to nefarious schemes.

[outlaw]

To answer the original question, there would be no such thing as Christianity. There would be no need for jesus. Is anyone picking up the pattern here? We have a god that could of created things anyway it wanted a god that can't tolerate sin but yet it creates a system where sin is inevitable, it's a requirement for christianity to work. Can't you see that sin isn't actually real? it's just an idea, an imaginary disease created to sell you an imaginary cure. Classic case of not being able to see the forest for the trees, I mean does your belief make you totally oblivious to this? Its a self fulfilling system can't you see that?

[Lonewolf]

And who sinned first, mankind or Lucifer?

Lucifer. Otherwise he wouldn't have tempted Eve.

ok, so if sin had already been committed by Lucifer in heaven, how is that Lucifer still had access to heaven's court, but man upon sinning was cast out of paradise?

[melanie]

To answer the original question, there would be no such thing as Christianity. There would be no need for jesus. Is anyone picking up the pattern here? We have a god that could of created things anyway it wanted a god that can't tolerate sin but yet it creates a system where sin is inevitable, it's a requirement for christianity to work. Can't you see that sin isn't actually real? it's just an idea, an imaginary disease created to sell you an imaginary cure. Classic case of not being able to see the forest for the trees, I mean does your belief make you totally oblivious to this? Its a self fulfilling system can't you see that?

This is exactly what I was talking about. Outlaw is NOT here to merely ask questions. He is here to try and plant doubt and 'educate' us. The arrogance involved on his part is mind boggling and clearly shows a complete seperation from God, as we who have the Holy Spirit and Christ in us would never allow the words from a foolish man rock our foundation even in the slightest. But I do not see how his continual input will benefit anybody least of all outlaw, he is on his own little crusade to enlighten christians to the folly of our ways. Every single thing that is said to him will be twisted and turned to suit his agenda. Whilst this has zero effect on me besides mild irritation, my concern is that instead of just reconciling with himself that he personally does not believe in God and just leave it at that, he is driven by this need to tear apart our faith. I'm sure Gods greatest adversary is fueling that 'need'. The fact he has targeted those on here weakest in their faith is my greatest concern. He is here for one purpose and one purpose only.