sleep or judgment

[PaulSacramento]

The body we will have will be like that of the resurrected Christ.

[B. W.]

Most things I here from folks is how bad people in denominational churches messed up the bible with bad doctrines. While that maybe true, it does not mean everything taught is error. Folks treat all doctrines as errors and thus proudly boast their only source is the bible. If church groups can get off target, then what makes a person think he or she cannot when they go at the christian walk alone?

We need the Word and the Holy Spirit together within the body of Christ - a threefold strand - to discern truth from error. While the bible alone is good - that is mostly how bad doctrines creep into the church as it leaves out the holy Spirit's influences. Likewise, the Spirit influence alone is good, however without the word, truth cannot be detected. Also the body of Christ with all its flaws, still is the place we are all called into and a part of. The Holy Spirit test and refines people, using the word to do so. One things to remember that accusing church doctrine of being all bias based does not justify someone acting alone to be biased in rejecting truth of the word and Holy Spirit within the church and thus become in error themselves.

Let me describe how the Word and Holy Spirit interact. There was a little boy who watch an artist set up his canvas and then mix some paint. Taking a roller, the artist spread the paint on the canvass. After completing this task, he sat back to let the pain dry. The little boy inquired, "Sir, aren't you gonging to paint the scene?"

The artist responded, "Yes, but before I paint, I must apply to the proper backdrop, so all the colors of the landscape blend together to make the painting complete. So come back tomorrow and watch me paint each stoke of paint all blending into the backdrop."

In christian circles, you have those who look at God's masterpiece painting with a Jeweler's eye glass and marveling at each drop and speck of paint. The is the Western Tradition. You have others looking at the God's work of art with a magnifying glass and pondering the beauty they see. That is the Eastern view. What both miss is becoming one new man and seeing the whole painting in all its glory. Both sides fail to note the backdrop which is (I'll mention this later).

The west looks at scholastic specks and the eastern goes about connecting the dots to uncover truth. Both need to step back a view the whole, and then marvel how it all blends together. Only the word, the Holy Spirit, and the body of Christ working together to remind us to step back. The Holy Spirit will help connect the dots in ways profound and decipher wisdom of the text against the backdrop. Same goes for this subject. Human bias creeps in and people cannot fathom God justice of the current and future hells and outright reject it. They ignore and justify ignoring on the western approach to doctrine and miss the painting all together. Such are just as guilty of bias as those they blame.

So what is the cure?

With that, you'll have to wait...and see... till I return later today of Friday...
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[Lonewolf]

Martin Luther and the Anabaptists. Their view is that the soul dies, with the body to be recalled to life at the resurrection of the dead, or that the soul is not separate from the body and so there is no "spiritual" self to survive bodily death. In both cases, the deceased does not begin to enjoy a reward or suffer a punishment until Judgment Day.

[Lonewolf]

As early as 1917 Harvey W. Scott wrote "That there is no definite affirmation, in the Old Testament of the doctrine of a future life, or personal immortality, is the general consensus of Biblical scholarship." The modern scholarly consensus is that the canonical teaching of the Old Testament made no reference to an "immortal soul" independent of the body. This view is represented consistently in a wide range of scholarly reference works.

According to Donelley, "Twentieth century biblical scholarship largely agrees that the ancient Jews had little explicit notion of a personal afterlife until very late in the Old Testament period, and only the latest stratum of the Old Testament asserts even the resurrection of the body." Scholars have noted that the notion of the "disembodied existence of a soul in bliss" is not in accordance with a Hebrew world view: "While Hebrew thought world distinguished soul from body (as material basis of life), there was no question of two separate, independent entities."

Gillman argues that..

In contrast to the two enigmatic references to Enoch and Elijah, there are ample references to the fact that death is the ultimate destiny for all human beings, that God has no contact with or power over the dead, and that the dead do not have any relationship with God. If there is a conceivable setting for the introduction of a doctrine of the afterlife, it would be in Job, since Job, although righteous, is harmed by God in the present life. But Job 10:20–22 and 14:1–10 affirm the opposite.

However, N. T. Wright suggests that "the Bible offers a spectrum of belief about life after death."

While Goldingay suggests that Qohelet points out that there is no evidence that "human beings would enjoy a positive afterlife.”

Philip Johnston argues that a few Psalms, such as Psalm 16, Psalm 49 and Psalm 73, "affirm a continued communion with God after death," but "give no elaboration of how, when or where this communion will take place."

Neyrey suggests that, "for a Hebrew, ‘soul’ indicated the unity of a human person," and "this Hebrew field of meaning is breached in the Wisdom of Solomon by explicit introduction of Greek ideas of soul.

Avery-Peck argues that..

Scripture does not present even a rudimentarily developed theology of the soul. The creation narrative is clear that all life originates with God. Yet the Hebrew Scripture offers no specific understanding of the origin of individual souls, of when and how they become attached to specific bodies, or of their potential existence, apart from the body, after death. The reason for this is that, as we noted at the beginning, the Hebrew Bible does not present a theory of the soul developed much beyond the simple concept of a force associated with respiration, hence, a life-force.

Regardless of the character of the soul's existence in the intermediate state, biblical scholarship affirms that a disembodied soul is unnatural and at best transitional.

Bromiley argues that "the soul and the body belong together, so that without either the one or the other there is no true man. Disembodied existence in Sheol is unreal. Paul does not seek a life outside the body, but wants to be clothed with a new and spiritual body (1 Cor. 15; 2 Cor. 5)."

The mortalist disbelief in the existence of a naturally immortal soul, is affirmed as biblical teaching by a range of standard scholarly Jewish and Christian sources.

The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Modern Christian Thought says, "There is no concept of an immortal soul in the Old Testament, nor does the New Testament ever call the human soul immortal."

Harper's Bible Dictionary says that "For a Hebrew, ‘soul’ indicated the unity of a human person; Hebrews were living bodies, they did not have bodies".

Cressey says, "But to the Bible man is not a soul in a body but a body/soul unity".

Avery-Peck says, "Scripture does not present even a rudimentarily developed theology of the soul" and "The notion of the soul as an independent force that animates human life but that can exist apart from the human body—either prior to conception and birth or subsequent to life and death—is the product only of later Judaism".

The New Dictionary of Theology says that the Septuagint translated the Hebrew word nefesh by the Greek word psyche, but the latter does not have the same sense in Greek thought.

The Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible says, "Far from referring simply to one aspect of a person, “soul” refers to the whole person".

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia says, "Possibly Jn. 6:33 also includes an allusion to the general life-giving function. This teaching rules out all ideas of an emanation of the soul." and "The soul and the body belong together, so that without either the one or the other there is no true man".

The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary says, "Indeed, the salvation of the “immortal soul” has sometimes been a commonplace in preaching, but it is fundamentally unbiblical."

The Encyclopedia of Christianity says "The Hebrew Bible does not present the human soul (nepeš) or spirit (rûah) as an immortal substance, and for the most part it envisions the dead as ghosts in Sheol, the dark, sleepy underworld".

The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church says, "there is practically no specific teaching on the subject in the Bible beyond an underlying assumption of some form of afterlife".

The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible says "It is this essential soul-body oneness that provides the uniqueness of the biblical concept of the resurrection of the body as distinguished from the Greek idea of the immortality of the soul".

The mortalist disbelief in the existence of a naturally immortal soul is also affirmed as biblical teaching by various modern theologians, and Hebblethwaite observes the doctrine is "not popular amongst Christian theologians or among Christian philosophers today.”

[B. W.]

Martin Luther and the Anabaptists. Their view is that the soul dies, with the body to be recalled to life at the resurrection of the dead, or that the soul is not separate from the body and so there is no "spiritual" self to survive bodily death. In both cases, the deceased does not begin to enjoy a reward or suffer a punishment until Judgment Day.

Then Isaiah 57:21 is not true...if what you say is true

Isa 57:21 "There is no peace," Says my God, "for the wicked."

The late John Stott passed on July 27, 2011 and now resides with Jesus despite his annihilation and and liberal ecumenism theology. He is not sleeping and now knows the errors of what he taught. John Stott was an liberal ecumenismist and taught annihilationism. See this article for more details...

http://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/ ... terson.pdf

I also find it true what Jesus said in Luke 16:30...

The bible teaches life continuing on immediately after death as well as a bodily Resurrection and when is this: at the end of the age. This proves God is true to his word when he created man, giving him a psychical body. In this psychical body one spiritual being is rejoined to be either with the Lord or in the Lake of fire. Before then, the spiritual being of a person continues on as Jesus told the truth in Luke 16:19-31 that cannot be twisted. Paul mentioned that for a Christian, to be absent from the body means one is present with the Lord. Those that that deny a persons spiritual being existing after death also in subtle effect deny the trinity of being human beings were fashioned like mentioned in Genesis chapter one. Think about it...

People may not like it but the truth is what it is - people will be held to account.

It is the nature of the current Hell that folks do not grasp and apply human ideas of a torture chamber to it. This is due to a medieval mind set and Dante as well as modern day bible thumpers. It is for these reason folks like Stott and others reject all concepts of Hell. Just because one does has a PhD before his or her name does not make them an expert. Jesus himself did not attend a bible college. Now we can agree that how the thumpers and Dante pervert the idea of torment in hell as wrong, however, I contend Hell's torments uncovers the real person's sin nature proving that they love sin more than all else and turn into the most vilest of people - that is their torment. It is just and right. Some may not like it. That is okay as it will not stop the truth from happening.

I wish folks would simply mention that they have a difficult time understanding Dante's concept of hell rather than reject the bible in how and what it teaches on the states of the afterlife.

Jesus made it plain as does the bible, that the torments in current hell uncover the true motives and desires of the heart - revealing the real nature of the person - uncovering one's sin nature in just levels and degrees. This truth is brought out in Luke 16:19-31 and elsewhere in the bible I already mentioned prior as the man's nature was revealed in verses 19 and 21. His only concern was for his own needs to be met above all others and then in verses 27-28 he attempts with pretext to care only about his own - not others. Do you see this? It is true, hell has no covering...
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[Lonewolf]

Mr. B.W. am I understanding from you that when we die we resurrect immediately to either a heaven or hell? That the judgement happens for each right away at the time of death?

[B. W.]

Mr. B.W. am I understanding from you that when we die we resurrect immediately to either a heaven or hell? That the judgement happens for each right away at the time of death?

It is what the bible says...

Such as Hebrews 9:27, 2 Co 5:8, Philippians 1:23 all indicate existence with the Lord in heaven after death for the Christian...

Jewish New Testament Commentary

Philippians 1:21-24

Consider the charge that New Testament faith is otherworldly, selfish, oblivious to this world's pains. On the one hand, death is gain (Php 1:21); and Php 1:23 teaches that when a believer dies he is immediately with the Messiah in some unspecified way (according to Php 3:21 and 1Co 15:35-58 he will later receive a resurrection body). This is better by far for Sha'ul himself than staying alive, precisely because eternal life is the Messiah (Php 1:21; John 1:4, John 11:25, John 14:6). Nevertheless, Sha'ul's choice is to remain alive "because of you" (Php 1:24), because the Philippians need him. Conclusion: precisely because of his Messianic faith Sha'ul does not ignore the needs of this world; though recognizing the benefits to himself of the 'olam haba, he chooses to minister to others here in the 'olam hazeh.


The Pulpit Commentary writes on this verse:

2. Death involves our immediate translation into Christ’s presence. "Having a desire to depart, and be with Christ." There is no ground for the supposition of a long sleep of the soul between death and the resurrection, however difficult it may be to conceive the conscious existence of a disembodied spirit. "Absent from the body, present with the Lord." To be with Christ implies:

(1) That we shall see him as he is.
(2) That we shall enjoy him when we see him in the fullness of joy that is at his right hand.
(3) That we shall never be parted from him. It is the glory of the heavenly state that believers "shall be for ever with the Lord" (1Th 4:17).

Then there is Luke 23:43 as well too...

Then Rev 7:14 mentions those that came out the great tribulation , if they were asleep how could they be in heaven?

Why would Stephen say this in Acts 7:59 - receive my spirit - if there was no spirit to receive or simply sleep in the grave?

Then there are the other verses already mentioned in their respective contexts too...
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[Lonewolf]

thank you for the scripture posted B.W.,

i have read the same passages myself, and i understand them under a diff light (interpretation), all except one, and that is the one written about in Luke 23:43

[B. W.]

thank you for the scripture posted B.W.,

i have read the same passages myself, and i understand them under a diff light (interpretation), all except one, and that is the one written about in Luke 23:43

I know and do not have a problem with that. I know the Lord will reveal things at the right time. So blessing to you!
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[Lonewolf]

Question Mr. B.W.

Can you explain why it took 3 days for the resurrection of our Lord? As opposed to resurrecting right after death?
And since He rose up with His crucified body (although a glorified one), why do the rest of the saints who have died in the faith, why is it that their remains (decaying bodies) are still in their graves?

[B. W.]

Question Mr. B.W.

Can you explain why it took 3 days for the resurrection of our Lord? As opposed to resurrecting right after death?
And since He rose up with His crucified body (although a glorified one), why do the rest of the saints who have died in the faith, why is it that their remains (decaying bodies) are still in their graves?

Again, what does the bible set forth on this topic?

Mat 12:40. "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." NKJV

Eph 4:8-10, "Therefore He says: "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, AND GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." 9 (Now this, "HE ASCENDED"—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)" NKJV

Col 2:15, "Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it." NKJV

Acts 2:31, "...he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY." NASB

The tradition from the Holy Spirit taught to the Church is that Jesus went to a place call Abraham's Bosom and there led captivity captive to heaven as the way was now open to reside with God through the reconciliation brought forth by the cross of Jesus. He also proclaimed victory over the principalities and powers and made a public spectacle of them during this time in hades (Hell - Sheol) to those across the gulf mentioned in Like 16:19-31. After which he gave gifts of the Holy Spirit to men and women as mentioned in Eph 4:8-12 so we too can be transformed in character and conduct and walk as he - see Isa 61:1-4 on his earth...
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[Lonewolf]

Please continue with the second part of the question as to why do the remains of the saints are still here with us till this day?

If the judgement and resurrection occurs at the time of death, then are there two bodies to a soul? One already with the Lord, and one still in the grave?

[B. W.]

Please continue with the second part of the question as to why do the remains of the saints are still here with us till this day?

If the judgement and resurrection occurs at the time of death, then are there two bodies to a soul? One already with the Lord, and one still in the grave?

Simple, God keeps his word. read Genesis 1:26, Genesis 2:7. He gave a body to Adam. That is a gift he will not renege on. Satan came and attempted to entrap God to go counter against this, destroy man and thus unable to keep his word to man (Gen 1:28) and thus not God true to himself and unable to keep his word. However, God designed human beings a tri-nature being. Whose spiritual makeup was fashioned with eternity in it as Eccl 3:11,14 mentions and note God is eternal too and in whose likeness was Adam fashioned?

Now, because of sin, death entered the world, yet, it is the death and decay and ruin of the body, not the spirit (or as Hebrew mentions the Shade) 'essence' of a person as they continue on either condemned or found righteous made by God's hand in a spiritual being state. I'll spare you the points about the prison house / pit mentioned in Isaiah 24:22 for the departed and the Paradise mentioned in Luke 16:16-31 which was emptied out by Jesus so now after his own die they reside with him in heaven as Paul mentioned.

In order for God to be true to his word and gift and callings to man in Genesis 1 and 2 - a Resurrection of the body will be needed at a future date and time mentioned in Rev 21:1 and Dan 12:1,2,3. The condemned go one place with a body and the saved go to another place with a body and there will be no more sin, death, sickness, etc as all things are now perfect. In order to make perfect, perfect, takes time to remove the dross from creation. With that, you can haggle with the Lord about. All very simple as it all comes back to God keeping all his promises, gifts and callings.

In that is where folks get confused as they miss that point about God and fail to connect the dots in a simple manner - 2 Co 11:3 NKJV thus confuse the bodily resurrection by soul sleep doctrine that refuses to see the eternity in the heart God placed in mankind. Such make complexity out of Luke 16:19-31 and in doing so fail to see that they are taking the simple absolute truth out of the text making Jesus a purveyor of secret inside joke Gnostic knowledge to get at the religious leaders to buttress soul sleep on. That takes a lot of words to explain and thus the purity and simplicity of Jesus is lost in their lengthy exposes.

I suggest you mull over what I written, and pray that the Lord enlighten you and explain how to properly connect the dots from scripture.

Blessings!
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[Lonewolf]

Please continue with the second part of the question as to why do the remains of the saints are still here with us till this day?

If the judgement and resurrection occurs at the time of death, then are there two bodies to a soul? One already with the Lord, and one still in the grave?

Simple, God keeps his word. read Genesis 1:26, Genesis 2:7. He gave a body to Adam. That is a gift he will not renege on. Satan came and attempted to entrap God to go counter against this, destroy man and thus unable to keep his word to man (Gen 1:28) and thus not God true to himself and unable to keep his word. However, God designed human beings a tri-nature being. Whose spiritual makeup was fashioned with eternity in it as Eccl 3:11,14 mentions and note God is eternal too and in whose likeness was Adam fashioned?

Now, because of sin, death entered the world, yet, it is the death and decay and ruin of the body, not the spirit (or as Hebrew mentions the Shade) 'essence' of a person as they continue on either condemned or found righteous made by God's hand in a spiritual being state. I'll spare you the points about the prison house / pit mentioned in Isaiah 24:22 for the departed and the Paradise mentioned in Luke 16:16-31 which was emptied out by Jesus so now after his own die they reside with him in heaven as Paul mentioned.

In order for God to be true to his word and gift and callings to man in Genesis 1 and 2 - a Resurrection of the body will be needed at a future date and time mentioned in Rev 21:1 and Dan 12:1,2,3. The condemned go one place with a body and the saved go to another place with a body and there will be no more sin, death, sickness, etc as all things are now perfect. In order to make perfect, perfect, takes time to remove the dross from creation. With that, you can haggle with the Lord about. All very simple as it all comes back to God keeping all his promises, gifts and callings.

In that is where folks get confused as they miss that point about God and fail to connect the dots in a simple manner - 2 Co 11:3 NKJV thus confuse the bodily resurrection by soul sleep doctrine that refuses to see the eternity in the heart God placed in mankind. Such make complexity out of Luke 16:19-31 and in doing so fail to see that they are taking the simple absolute truth out of the text making Jesus a purveyor of secret inside joke Gnostic knowledge to get at the religious leaders to buttress soul sleep on. That takes a lot of words to explain and thus the purity and simplicity of Jesus is lost in their lengthy exposes.

I suggest you mull over what I written, and pray that the Lord enlighten you and explain how to properly connect the dots from scripture.

Blessings!
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Well again, thank you B.W. for taking the time and for your prayers, i can always use them. But plain and simple, sorry but i just don't read the same understanding on scripture that you have concerning the resurrection. Thank you though.

Peace

[B. W.]

...Well again, thank you B.W. for taking the time and for your prayers, i can always use them. But plain and simple, sorry but i just don't read the same understanding on scripture that you have concerning the resurrection. Thank you though.

Peace

I understand...

It is refreshing to be able to dialog with a reasonable person, even if we do not agree so peace with blessings to you
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