Slavery in the Bible

[outlaw]

My point is the god that gave these instructions is the same god of today just because times change god doesn't yet you want call it loving.
Its also the same god that commits genocide.
My point is, how christians describe god and what I read myself and what others point out by others I mean (people without the pre existing idea that god is loving) don't match. Now im sure I could dig up passages that demonstrate god is loving but you can't ignore others so how do you reconcile this?

Here's the link to what G&S has to share on the subject of slavery..


http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... bible.html

The only bible passage used in that whole piece is (exodus 21:16) which refers to kidnapping, nothing to do with slavery. All it condems is if your caught in possesion of someone you've kidnapped or if you've already sold them you shall be put to death. It doesn't condem buying another person because thats fine by god.

[outlaw]

Outlaw,

I'm offering to send you a book for free. To wherever in aussie land you live. If you are willing to read it and be open to learning something new.

When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property. (Exod. 21:20-21) Please explain.

Im quite capable of comprehending the english language I don't need someone else to give me their biased spin on it.
There are no amount of apologetics to make the above quote say anything different without plainly lying.

In what possible way do you agree the above passage is an acceptable instruction to give people?

[UsagiTsukino]

Slavery in the modern slavery was much different than in the bible
. They were not forced into it

OT:: In the OT, this relationship was overwhelmingly voluntary, and forced, non-negotiated (as in pledge of work, in case of default of debt, cf. the case in 2 Kings 4.1 where the creditor is probably coming to claim the children for non-payment, [BKC, in loc]) enslavement was a capital offense (unless it was a community punishment--you were an theft/fraud offender yourself, of course). This is generally in keeping with what we have noted earlier:

"A person would either enter into slavery or be sold by a parent or relative. Persons sold their wives, grandchildren, brother (with his wife and child), sister, sister-in-law, daughter-in-law, nephews and niece…Many of the documents emphasize that the transaction is voluntary. This applies not only to self-sale but also to those who are the object of sale, although their consent must sometimes have been fictional, as in the case of a nursing infant." [HI:HANEL:1.665]


§ Forced enslavement of Hebrews was punishable by death.

"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death. " (Ex 21.16)
If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you. (Deut 24.7; cf. I Tim 1.10).
§ The vast majority of cases would have been voluntary, with the person himself initiating the transaction--it is ALWAYS couched in the terms of 'selling oneself':

[UsagiTsukino]

Here are the two passages, both in Exodus 21 (translation from the Jewish Publication Society version):
"When you acquire a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years; in the seventh year he shall go free, without payment. If he came single, he shall leave single; if he had a wife, his wife shall leave with him. If his master gave him a wife, and she has borne him children, the wife and her children shall belong to the master, and he shall leave alone." (21.2-4)
"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not be freed as male slaves are. If she proves to be displeasing to her master, who designated her for himself, he must let her be redeemed; he shall not have the right to sell her to outsiders, since he broke faith with her. And if he designated her for his son, he shall deal with her as is the practice with free maidens. If he marries another, he must not withhold from this one her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. If he fails her in these three ways, she shall go free, without payment." (21.7-11)


They the slaves were not forced in to it.

[outlaw]

Slavery in the modern slavery was much different than in the bible
. They were not forced into it

OT:: In the OT, this relationship was overwhelmingly voluntary, and forced, non-negotiated (as in pledge of work, in case of default of debt, cf. the case in 2 Kings 4.1 where the creditor is probably coming to claim the children for non-payment, [BKC, in loc]) enslavement was a capital offense (unless it was a community punishment--you were an theft/fraud offender yourself, of course). This is generally in keeping with what we have noted earlier:

"A person would either enter into slavery or be sold by a parent or relative. Persons sold their wives, grandchildren, brother (with his wife and child), sister, sister-in-law, daughter-in-law, nephews and niece…Many of the documents emphasize that the transaction is voluntary. This applies not only to self-sale but also to those who are the object of sale, although their consent must sometimes have been fictional, as in the case of a nursing infant." [HI:HANEL:1.665]


§ Forced enslavement of Hebrews was punishable by death.

"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death. " (Ex 21.16)
If a man is caught kidnapping one of his brother Israelites and treats him as a slave or sells him, the kidnapper must die. You must purge the evil from among you. (Deut 24.7; cf. I Tim 1.10).
§ The vast majority of cases would have been voluntary, with the person himself initiating the transaction--it is ALWAYS couched in the terms of 'selling oneself':

OK let's for a second go with the idea that they weren't forced into it. Big deal!!! god still gave instructions on how you can and can't keep someone as property.
Were they free to leave anytime they wanted?
God gave instruction on how you can and can't beat your slave. When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property. (Exod. 21:20-21)


"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death. " (Ex 21.16)

This says nothing about slavery all it says is you can't kidnap someone, says nothing about buying someone. If you exchanged goods or money for the person god is perfectly fine with it.

In what situation is it OK to own another person as property whether they are forced or not?

In what situation is it acceptable to beat the person who is your property with a rod as long as long as they don't die within a few days?

Now you know this isn't acceptable ever!! anywhere, not now not then not ever, but your god does, so you have a problem here, so how do you deal with it?

[RickD]

Outlaw,

I'm offering to send you a book for free. To wherever in aussie land you live. If you are willing to read it and be open to learning something new.

When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property. (Exod. 21:20-21) Please explain.

Im quite capable of comprehending the english language I don't need someone else to give me their biased spin on it.
There are no amount of apologetics to make the above quote say anything different without plainly lying.

In what possible way do you agree the above passage is an acceptable instruction to give people?

I gave your answer here.

I wrote:

Did you bother to read the chapter in exodus that you cherry picked these verses from?
These verses speak about the punishment when a slave dies.

You can no more say God condones slavery, than the US condones rape, because the US has laws against rape. Like it or not, slavery was a big part of the ANE at that time. Just like rape is an unfortunate part of society today. That's why we have laws against rape. For the love of intellectual honesty, do yourself a favor, and stop getting cherry picked verses off atheist sites to try to discredit God and the bible. Read the bible for yourself, just like you'd read any other book. Then you can see proper context.

These are very difficult verses that many people besides yourself, have a difficult time with. Many people here have recommended the book to you to help explain these difficult passages. Are you open to learn, or are you going to continue in your stubbornness and defiance towards God?

You are not the first person to struggle with these verses. Act like an adult, and be open to learn.

It's kinda ironic. Atheists accuse Christians of being closed minded. Seems like it's the other way around.

[outlaw]

Here are the two passages, both in Exodus 21 (translation from the Jewish Publication Society version):
"When you acquire a Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years; in the seventh year he shall go free, without payment. If he came single, he shall leave single; if he had a wife, his wife shall leave with him. If his master gave him a wife, and she has borne him children, the wife and her children shall belong to the master, and he shall leave alone." (21.2-4)
"When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she shall not be freed as male slaves are. If she proves to be displeasing to her master, who designated her for himself, he must let her be redeemed; he shall not have the right to sell her to outsiders, since he broke faith with her. And if he designated her for his son, he shall deal with her as is the practice with free maidens. If he marries another, he must not withhold from this one her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights. If he fails her in these three ways, she shall go free, without payment." (21.7-11)


They the slaves were not forced in to it.

So if the master gave him a wife and she has children the master keeps the wife and children and let's the slave go single as he came after 6 years. How nice, the master seperates the man from his children and wife and keep them (probably as slaves) for himself.
Lovely instructions to give people.


So if you sell your daughter as a slave and she's no good the master can't sell her but can pass her down to his son where she is to be treated as a free maiden (because she's useless as a slave) if he doesn't marry her he has to feed her and clothe her otherwise let her go.
Once again how loving to be treated that way.


Are you seriously peddling this as good?

[outlaw]

Outlaw,

I'm offering to send you a book for free. To wherever in aussie land you live. If you are willing to read it and be open to learning something new.

When a slave owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. But if the slave survives a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner's property. (Exod. 21:20-21) Please explain.

Im quite capable of comprehending the english language I don't need someone else to give me their biased spin on it.
There are no amount of apologetics to make the above quote say anything different without plainly lying.

In what possible way do you agree the above passage is an acceptable instruction to give people?

I gave your answer here.

I wrote:

Did you bother to read the chapter in exodus that you cherry picked these verses from?
These verses speak about the punishment when a slave dies.

You can no more say God condones slavery, than the US condones rape, because the US has laws against rape. Like it or not, slavery was a big part of the ANE at that time. Just like rape is an unfortunate part of society today. That's why we have laws against rape. For the love of intellectual honesty, do yourself a favor, and stop getting cherry picked verses off atheist sites to try to discredit God and the bible. Read the bible for yourself, just like you'd read any other book. Then you can see proper context.

These are very difficult verses that many people besides yourself, have a difficult time with. Many people here have recommended the book to you to help explain these difficult passages. Are you open to learn, or are you going to continue in your stubbornness and defiance towards God?

You are not the first person to struggle with these verses. Act like an adult, and be open to learn.

It's kinda ironic. Atheists accuse Christians of being closed minded. Seems like it's the other way around.

Correct, as long as they don't die immediately so long as god is concerened your off the hook.

In what time or place is this an acceptable way to treat people?

[RickD]

outlaw wrote:
Correct, as long as they don't die immediately so long as god is concerened your off the hook.

In what time or place is this an acceptable way to treat people?

Outlaw,

You are looking at the ANE through 21st century glasses. We need to be careful comparing the way it was in the ANE, to how it is today.

In the verse in question, it describes the punishment if a slave dies. Slaves were property, usually to pay a debt, or were sold into slavery to pay for food for families. You need to understand there was no middle class as we understand it in westernized nations today. Slavery was a part of life back then, whether we like it or not.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Slavery was a part of life back then, whether we like it or not.

Outlaw isn't concerned about slavery. All he wants to do is criticize the Bible and he's found what he thinks is a motherload vein in the topic of slavery. Notice how he continually rejects the explanations given. When he runs out of vitriol on slavery, he'll find something else...perhaps polygamy in the Bible. Whatever the topic, his spite will prevent him from learning anything.


Remember: Debating with an atheist is like playing chess with a monkey... Can you finish the sentence?

FL

[RickD]

Slavery was a part of life back then, whether we like it or not.

Outlaw isn't concerned about slavery. All he wants to do is criticize the Bible and he's found what he thinks is a motherload vein in the topic of slavery. Notice how he continually rejects the explanations given. When he runs out of vitriol on slavery, he'll find something else...perhaps polygamy in the Bible. Whatever the topic, his spite will prevent him from learning anything.


Remember: Debating with an atheist is like playing chess with a monkey... Can you finish the sentence?

FL

Something about feces.

[outlaw]

outlaw wrote:
Correct, as long as they don't die immediately so long as god is concerened your off the hook.

In what time or place is this an acceptable way to treat people?

Outlaw,

You are looking at the ANE through 21st century glasses. We need to be careful comparing the way it was in the ANE, to how it is today.

In the verse in question, it describes the punishment if a slave dies. Slaves were property, usually to pay a debt, or were sold into slavery to pay for food for families. You need to understand there was no middle class as we understand it in westernized nations today. Slavery was a part of life back then, whether we like it or not.

Does god change? No. So if god is OK with people beating slaves as long as you don't kill them then, he's still OK with it now. Or does god change his rules due to social conditions and time periods?

[RickD]

outlaw wrote:
Correct, as long as they don't die immediately so long as god is concerened your off the hook.

In what time or place is this an acceptable way to treat people?

Outlaw,

You are looking at the ANE through 21st century glasses. We need to be careful comparing the way it was in the ANE, to how it is today.

In the verse in question, it describes the punishment if a slave dies. Slaves were property, usually to pay a debt, or were sold into slavery to pay for food for families. You need to understand there was no middle class as we understand it in westernized nations today. Slavery was a part of life back then, whether we like it or not.

Does god change? No. So if god is OK with people beating slaves as long as you don't kill them then, he's still OK with it now. Or does god change his rules due to social conditions and time periods?

Outlaw,

Ancient Israel was a Theocracy. There are no theocracies today. Therefore God has given no laws to any specific nations today. The laws in Exodus were given only to Israel.

[outlaw]

Slavery was a part of life back then, whether we like it or not.

Outlaw isn't concerned about slavery. All he wants to do is criticize the Bible and he's found what he thinks is a motherload vein in the topic of slavery. Notice how he continually rejects the explanations given. When he runs out of vitriol on slavery, he'll find something else...perhaps polygamy in the Bible. Whatever the topic, his spite will prevent him from learning anything.


Remember: Debating with an atheist is like playing chess with a monkey... Can you finish the sentence?

FL

I'm yet to hear an explanation of in what circumstance is it OK to keep people as property and beat them as long as you don't kill them.
Are you OK with the fact that your god gave these instructions to people back then?

No one wants to answer a direct question all you want to peddle is this idea of' its not the same as slavery as you know it' and even when I give you that grace and say OK let's go by your understanding and say they weren't forced into slavery. But you still have to answer the questions of
1. Were they allowed to leave when they pleased?
2. In what way is it OK to you to own someone as property and beat them as long as they don't immediately die?

These are gods instructions for treatment of slaves, these aren't my words, do you agree with god that this is the correct way to treat people whether or not they are forced into slavery? Why do you continue to avoid answering this question?

You want to start this ad hominem and try to divert the atteñtion onto me, it happens over and over again, Melanie is pretty good at it.
let me just say one more time this isn't about me!! I have issues that I see in the bible and I'm trying to understand how others deal with these problems I have no agenda and attempting to derail a problem by trying to turn your attention to me just gets us arguing and strays from the issue.

Im not attacking anybody personally im challenging ideas, we should acknowledge ideas but we don't have to agree or respect thèm.
From now on I won't be responding to any personal comment about me.

[outlaw]

outlaw wrote:
Correct, as long as they don't die immediately so long as god is concerened your off the hook.

In what time or place is this an acceptable way to treat people?

Outlaw,

You are looking at the ANE through 21st century glasses. We need to be careful comparing the way it was in the ANE, to how it is today.

In the verse in question, it describes the punishment if a slave dies. Slaves were property, usually to pay a debt, or were sold into slavery to pay for food for families. You need to understand there was no middle class as we understand it in westernized nations today. Slavery was a part of life back then, whether we like it or not.

Does god change? No. So if god is OK with people beating slaves as long as you don't kill them then, he's still OK with it now. Or does god change his rules due to social conditions and time periods?

Outlaw,

Ancient Israel was a Theocracy. There are no theocracies today. Therefore God has given no laws to any specific nations today. The laws in Exodus were given only to Israel.

Just answer the question, are you ok with the fact that god gave these instructions to Israel for people to own people as property and beat them as long as they don't die? Yes or no, you either agree that this is an acceptable way to treat people or not, regardless of time period, social differences etc Yes or no