What would have happened had Adam never sinned?

[outlaw]

To answer the original question, there would be no such thing as Christianity. There would be no need for jesus. Is anyone picking up the pattern here? We have a god that could of created things anyway it wanted a god that can't tolerate sin but yet it creates a system where sin is inevitable, it's a requirement for christianity to work. Can't you see that sin isn't actually real? it's just an idea, an imaginary disease created to sell you an imaginary cure. Classic case of not being able to see the forest for the trees, I mean does your belief make you totally oblivious to this? Its a self fulfilling system can't you see that?

This is exactly what I was talking about. Outlaw is NOT here to merely ask questions. He is here to try and plant doubt and 'educate' us. The arrogance involved on his part is mind boggling and clearly shows a complete seperation from God, as we who have the Holy Spirit and Christ in us would never allow the words from a foolish man rock our foundation even in the slightest. But I do not see how his continual input will benefit anybody least of all outlaw, he is on his own little crusade to enlighten christians to the folly of our ways. Every single thing that is said to him will be twisted and turned to suit his agenda. Whilst this has zero effect on me besides mild irritation, my concern is that instead of just reconciling with himself that he personally does not believe in God and just leave it at that, he is driven by this need to tear apart our faith. I'm sure Gods greatest adversary is fueling that 'need'. The fact he has targeted those on here weakest in their faith is my greatest concern. He is here for one purpose and one purpose only.

Why can't you just join in a discussion instead of just whining about everything i write?
Yes im asking questions and making comments that might challenge your fragile little faith, is that too much for your psyche to handle?
It's a religious forum in case you didn't realise, if you don't like what i write don't read it! no ones forcing you to even be on this forum.
These are the types of questions your gonna get when you want to label something as omniscient omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

[melanie]

To answer the original question, there would be no such thing as Christianity. There would be no need for jesus. Is anyone picking up the pattern here? We have a god that could of created things anyway it wanted a god that can't tolerate sin but yet it creates a system where sin is inevitable, it's a requirement for christianity to work. Can't you see that sin isn't actually real? it's just an idea, an imaginary disease created to sell you an imaginary cure. Classic case of not being able to see the forest for the trees, I mean does your belief make you totally oblivious to this? Its a self fulfilling system can't you see that?

This is exactly what I was talking about. Outlaw is NOT here to merely ask questions. He is here to try and plant doubt and 'educate' us. The arrogance involved on his part is mind boggling and clearly shows a complete seperation from God, as we who have the Holy Spirit and Christ in us would never allow the words from a foolish man rock our foundation even in the slightest. But I do not see how his continual input will benefit anybody least of all outlaw, he is on his own little crusade to enlighten christians to the folly of our ways. Every single thing that is said to him will be twisted and turned to suit his agenda. Whilst this has zero effect on me besides mild irritation, my concern is that instead of just reconciling with himself that he personally does not believe in God and just leave it at that, he is driven by this need to tear apart our faith. I'm sure Gods greatest adversary is fueling that 'need'. The fact he has targeted those on here weakest in their faith is my greatest concern. He is here for one purpose and one purpose only.

Why can't you just join in a discussion instead of just whining about everything i write?
Yes im asking questions and making comments that might challenge your fragile little faith, is that too much for your psyche to handle?
It's a religious forum in case you didn't realise, if you don't like what i write don't read it! no ones forcing you to even be on this forum.
These are the types of questions your gonna get when you want to label something as omniscient omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

It is Christian forum, not a religious forum.
In the words of BW;
Have a nice day......

[outlaw]

To answer the original question, there would be no such thing as Christianity. There would be no need for jesus. Is anyone picking up the pattern here? We have a god that could of created things anyway it wanted a god that can't tolerate sin but yet it creates a system where sin is inevitable, it's a requirement for christianity to work. Can't you see that sin isn't actually real? it's just an idea, an imaginary disease created to sell you an imaginary cure. Classic case of not being able to see the forest for the trees, I mean does your belief make you totally oblivious to this? Its a self fulfilling system can't you see that?

This is exactly what I was talking about. Outlaw is NOT here to merely ask questions. He is here to try and plant doubt and 'educate' us. The arrogance involved on his part is mind boggling and clearly shows a complete seperation from God, as we who have the Holy Spirit and Christ in us would never allow the words from a foolish man rock our foundation even in the slightest. But I do not see how his continual input will benefit anybody least of all outlaw, he is on his own little crusade to enlighten christians to the folly of our ways. Every single thing that is said to him will be twisted and turned to suit his agenda. Whilst this has zero effect on me besides mild irritation, my concern is that instead of just reconciling with himself that he personally does not believe in God and just leave it at that, he is driven by this need to tear apart our faith. I'm sure Gods greatest adversary is fueling that 'need'. The fact he has targeted those on here weakest in their faith is my greatest concern. He is here for one purpose and one purpose only.

Why can't you just join in a discussion instead of just whining about everything i write?
Yes im asking questions and making comments that might challenge your fragile little faith, is that too much for your psyche to handle?
It's a religious forum in case you didn't realise, if you don't like what i write don't read it! no ones forcing you to even be on this forum.
These are the types of questions your gonna get when you want to label something as omniscient omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

It is Christian forum, not a religious forum.
In the words of BW;
Have a nice day......

Last time I checked Christianity is a religion

[outlaw]

Here's the question: COULD Adam and Eve, given the choices they had and free will they were given, have REMAINED sinless? I say NO! Unless God had created them INCAPABLE of sinning, as basically robots programmed to never do - or be ABLE to do - anything more than He programmed them for. Because unless transformed by God, I would think all created beings would eventually sin, that only God has always remained sinless.

And here's a few questions concerning the angels that were :NOT part of the rebellion led by Lucifer: Do the angels currently with the Lord in Heaven EVER sin? And even though it's Heaven, we know, due to the Luciferian Rebellion, that there WAS once sin there. And so, how can ANY of Heaven's present Angels - whom apparently have free will - in their own power, NEVER sin?

Thoughts?

God did not want Adam to sin, he even warned him against it...telling him he would die. It was Adam who told Eve. I'm sure she did not like the fact that everything had to go through Adam. You, and me are warned not to sin...so are the angels.
Note: Adam, and Eve did not die from what they did, they died from a judgment from god.
Adam shared his wife with Satan...a three some. This was an act of adultery on the part of all three of them. The reason God called Satan a murderer, is the results of that act caused the whole unborn human race to die. God give all his creatures free will. 1/3rd the angels joined Satan in his rebellion. The rest did not. Those who did wanted to live like man, and not serve man.

See here is where your stories and understanding is inconsistent. On one hand you say god didn't want us to sin, while at the same time say that jesus was Part of gods plan all along and claiming god is omniscient which would mean he knew we were going to sin hence jesus. Why would he plan for jesus if he didn't want us to sin?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Last time I checked Christianity is a religion

Define for us religion and faith. And, are you able to tell us the difference between a religion and a faith?

FL

[outlaw]

Last time I checked Christianity is a religion

Define for us religion and faith. And, are you able to tell us the difference between a religion and a faith?

FL

Yes but what would that prove lets stick to the topic.

[Philip]

On one hand you say god didn't want us to sin, while at the same time say that jesus was Part of gods plan all along and claiming god is omniscient which would mean he knew we were going to sin hence jesus. Why would he plan for jesus if he didn't want us to sin?

First, Jesus IS God - or do you not know that this is what the Bible teaches about Him? Yes, God knew all along that mankind would eventually sin. He did not create us as programmed robots, but created us with free will to decide whether to sin or not. As only God can be perfect, and by giving us free will, He also ALWAYS knew that it would only be a matter of time before Adam and Eve sinned. And as He always knew this, He also ALWAYS knew that He would one day provide and apply the remedy for forgiveness - that God would become a man (Jesus) and thus be a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world - applied to those who truly believe and want forgiveness from their sins. It's that simple. God did for us what we cannot do for ourselves. And so He also gave us the ability to choose - to either embrace Him or reject Him, each choice having eternal consequences. Only God is Holy, and so all that come into His realm must be made perfect and sinless. Only through faith in Jesus is this possible.

Outlaw, by the way, from your profile I already see you believe in miracles. As you don't believe in creation, you apparently believe a universe created itself, from nothing, and that the extraordinary, complex laws of order and precision that guided our unverse, from it's very beginning moments,also supposedly created themselves. Man, Outlaw, I think you actually have more faith than I do, if you can believe in UNCAUSED, UNGUIDED, unfathomably complex miracles.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Yes but what would that prove lets stick to the topic.

It would show us and you whether or not you know what you are talking about. So why not answer the question? Look it up in a dictionary, then put the answer in your own words. You'll learn something...

Define for us religion and faith. And, are you able to tell us the difference between a religion and a faith?

FL

[outlaw]

On one hand you say god didn't want us to sin, while at the same time say that jesus was Part of gods plan all along and claiming god is omniscient which would mean he knew we were going to sin hence jesus. Why would he plan for jesus if he didn't want us to sin?

First, Jesus IS God - or do you not know that this is what the Bible teaches about Him? Yes, God knew all along that mankind would eventually sin. He did not create us as programmed robots, but created us with free will to decide whether to sin or not. As only God can be perfect, and by giving us free will, He also ALWAYS knew that it would only be a matter of time before Adam and Eve sinned. And as He always knew this, He also ALWAYS knew that He would one day provide and apply the remedy for forgiveness - that God would become a man (Jesus) and thus be a perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world - applied to those who truly believe and want forgiveness from their sins. It's that simple. God did for us what we cannot do for ourselves. And so He also gave us the ability to choose - to either embrace Him or reject Him, each choice having eternal consequences. Only God is Holy, and so all that come into His realm must be made perfect and sinless. Only through faith in Jesus is this possible.

Outlaw, by the way, from your profile I already see you believe in miracles. As you don't believe in creation, you apparently believe a universe created itself, from nothing, and that the extraordinary, complex laws of order and precision that guided our unverse, from it's very beginning moments,also supposedly created themselves. Man, Outlaw, I think you actually have more faith than I do, if you can believe in UNCAUSED, UNGUIDED, unfathomably complex miracles.

Are you blind to the fact that the story of god/Jesus is a self fulfilling prophecy?
Sin is an imaginary idea of a disease in order to sell you a cure (Jesus)
Ever noticed how the church who invented the doctrine of original sin tell you no one can escape this sin, but it's OK we have a solution?
You weren't born sick, this unhealthy idea you have that humans are damaged fruit that need fixing is nonsense. Yeah were not perfect were just human, behaving as humans acting out our natural instincts, get rid of this baggage you'll feel a lot more free.

I make no claims about the origins of the universe I simply lack a belief in gods due to a lack of evidence. If you had evidence for your god you wouldn't require faith. The evidence could be tested and verified and measured.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

You are remarkably ignorant for an atheist. I suggest you buy The Atheist Debater's Handbook by B.C. Johnson. You need to read it badly. But before you read that, you should buy Goerge H. Smith's Atheism - The Case Against God.

And since you are also remarkably ignorant about the Bible, you need to read that as well. I would suggest The Message which is a modern paraphrase of the Bible.

Stop making a fool of yourself. You must be an embarrassment to other atheists. Read and learn.

FL

[outlaw]

You are remarkably ignorant for an atheist. I suggest you buy The Atheist Debater's Handbook by B.C. Johnson. You need to read it badly. But before you read that, you should buy Goerge H. Smith's Atheism - The Case Against God.

And since you are also remarkably ignorant about the Bible, you need to read that as well. I would suggest The Message which is a modern paraphrase of the Bible.

Stop making a fool of yourself. You must be an embarrassment to other atheists. Read and learn.

FL

If I called you ignorant and said you were an embarrassment to other Christians I'd probably be banned.
Why is it OK for you to do it?
Why the double standards on this forum moderators?

[outlaw]

[quote="Furstentum Liechtenstein"]You are remarkably ignorant for an atheist. I suggest you buy The Atheist Debater's Handbook by B.C. Johnson. You need to read it badly. But before you read that, you should buy Goerge H. Smith's Atheism - The Case Against God.

And since you are also remarkably ignorant about the Bible, you need to read that as well. I would suggest The Message which is a modern paraphrase of the Bible.

Stop making a fool of yourself. You must be an embarrassment to other atheists. Read and learn.

FL [/quote


I suggest you read some Sam Harris or Hitchens you might learn something.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

If I called you ignorant and said you were an embarrassment to other Christians I'd probably be banned.

No, you wouldn't. Others have called me a bad Christian but I don't get all babyish about it.

As for you, sorry, but you are ignorant. I was an atheist all my life until my mid 40s. I was in atheist organizations before there was internet. If I had an atheist like you in my group in the 1980s and 90s, you'd be kicked out as a loose canon. You show a remarkable lack of knowledge about the Bible, and you don't listen to what people tell you. All you want to do is preach your spite. If you were a Christian, you'd be a yelling Bible-thumper of the worse kind.

Get a life!

FL

[outlaw]

If I called you ignorant and said you were an embarrassment to other Christians I'd probably be banned.

No, you wouldn't. Others have called me a bad Christian but I don't get all babyish about it.

As for you, sorry, but you are ignorant. I was an atheist all my life until my mid 40s. I was in atheist organizations before there was internet. If I had an atheist like you in my group in the 1980s and 90s, you'd be kicked out as a loose canon. You show a remarkable lack of knowledge about the Bible, and you don't listen to what people tell you. All you want to do is preach your spite. If you were a Christian, you'd be a yelling Bible-thumper of the worse kind.

Get a life!

FL

I feel sorry for you.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I feel sorry for you.

Ask me if I care.

Your ignorance makes you look the fool. You have a spirit of confusion which prevents you from understanding the answers we write plainly. I really don't know how you can overcome these handicaps with your perverse spirit. In human terms, you are hopeless. Only God can help you because only He can work a miracle in your life.

FL