Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

[outlaw]

Checkmate

[B. W.]

I wouldn't call someone who makes those types of rules loving, these are not rules that a loving god would make in my opinion. They're also not what I would call just, because if these rules were just back then they should also be just now.

Love is of little relevence here, if any. Rules exist to guide behavior. In France, the speed limit is 130km/h; my wife pointed to the center-mounted speedometer and said that I was going over 200. Shortly after, a policeman stopped me and said I was going 184km/h. Upon hearing my Canadian French accent, he softened up and gave me a stern warning but no speeding ticket. He didn't love me, and the law wasn't there to show its love to me. He stopped me because I was breaking the law and then he offered me his grace by not issuing a ticket. Had he decided to fine me, that would not have been from a lack of love either.

As for the rules for slave owners not being those that a ''loving god would make'' the problem you have is that they were made by a loving and just God. God's justice is what is being expressed by the rules (and penalties) in Exodus & Leviticus. Perfect love is also just and requires accountability from the lawbreaker. In other words, you break the rule, you pay the fine. What kind of pinhead god would make a rule then say to slave rule breakers, ''Well, OK, since I love you, I'll let you off the hook'' or what kind of man-made god would say to slave owners, ''OK, you killed your slave but I know you just flew off the handle and didn't mean to strangle him''...

The punishments were there to correct wayward slaves, and they are just. They set limits on the slave owner's fury and provide consequences should he abuse his charges.

FL

What kind of pinhead god would make a rule then say to slave rule breakers, ''Well, OK, since I love you, I'll let you off the hook''

Probably the same type of pinhead god that makes the rule that says death is the punishment for sin, then say to rule breakers, "Well, OK. since i love you, i'll let you off the hook"

So you desire no rules?

Anarchy is the rule then and chaos the norm is what you espouse and desire above all else, is it not?

No Checkmate mate...

You mentioned that you don't hate god and call him a pinhead.

Are you a pinhead for making rules for your own children?

Funny thing about kids, they are free minded beings and you have no problem with allowing them explore their own way and call this just or at least good parenting then turn around a say that God is criminal for doing the same with humanity and going above all good parenting by providing a cure to end chaos and anarchy...

How do you purify gold / precious metals?

Curious, how much are you being paid to write on this forum or are you just here for promoting chaos for free?
-
-
-

[outlaw]

I wouldn't call someone who makes those types of rules loving, these are not rules that a loving god would make in my opinion. They're also not what I would call just, because if these rules were just back then they should also be just now.

Love is of little relevence here, if any. Rules exist to guide behavior. In France, the speed limit is 130km/h; my wife pointed to the center-mounted speedometer and said that I was going over 200. Shortly after, a policeman stopped me and said I was going 184km/h. Upon hearing my Canadian French accent, he softened up and gave me a stern warning but no speeding ticket. He didn't love me, and the law wasn't there to show its love to me. He stopped me because I was breaking the law and then he offered me his grace by not issuing a ticket. Had he decided to fine me, that would not have been from a lack of love either.

As for the rules for slave owners not being those that a ''loving god would make'' the problem you have is that they were made by a loving and just God. God's justice is what is being expressed by the rules (and penalties) in Exodus & Leviticus. Perfect love is also just and requires accountability from the lawbreaker. In other words, you break the rule, you pay the fine. What kind of pinhead god would make a rule then say to slave rule breakers, ''Well, OK, since I love you, I'll let you off the hook'' or what kind of man-made god would say to slave owners, ''OK, you killed your slave but I know you just flew off the handle and didn't mean to strangle him''...

The punishments were there to correct wayward slaves, and they are just. They set limits on the slave owner's fury and provide consequences should he abuse his charges.

FL

What kind of pinhead god would make a rule then say to slave rule breakers, ''Well, OK, since I love you, I'll let you off the hook''

Probably the same type of pinhead god that makes the rule that says death is the punishment for sin, then say to rule breakers, "Well, OK. since i love you, i'll let you off the hook"

So you desire no rules?

Anarchy is the rule then and chaos the norm is what you espouse and desire above all else, is it not?

No Checkmate mate...

You mentioned that you don't hate god and call him a pinhead.

Are you a pinhead for making rules for your own children?

Funny thing about kids, they are free minded beings and you have no problem with allowing them explore their own way and call this just or at least good parenting then turn around a say that God is criminal for doing the same with humanity and going above all good parenting by providing a cure to end chaos and anarchy...

How do you purify gold / precious metals?

Curious, how much are you being paid to write on this forum or are you just here for promoting chaos for free?
-
-
-

Yes checkmate

You can actually see how stupid it is for god to make a rule and then say 'Well, ok, since i love you, ill let you off the hook" i agree its ridiculous.

But then fail to see it when the same god does it with vicarious redemption, it's the same thing!!! god makes the rule about how sinners should be dealt with then god steps in and says "Well, ok, since i love you, ill let you off the hook" CHECKMATE ALL DAY LONG.

You just proved to yourself how stupid gods plan for redemption is in your own words.

Might as well close this thread my point has been made.

[B. W.]

Yes checkmate

You can actually see how stupid it is for Outlaw to make a rule TO HIS KIDS and then say 'Well, ok, since i love you, ill let you off the hook" i agree its ridiculous.

But then fail to see it when OUTLAW does it with vicarious redemption, it's the same thing!!! OUTLAW makes the rule about how sinners should be dealt with OUTLAW steps in and says "Well, ok, since i love you, ill let you off the hook" CHECKMATE ALL DAY LONG.

You just proved to yourself how stupid OUTLAW'S plan for redemption is FOR HIS OWN KIDS in your own words.

Might as well close this thread my point has been made.
-
-
-

[B. W.]

Sadly, many folks have no clue what atonement means. The below Wikipedia link gives a decent overview on atonement...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_in_Christianity

Why is this important to the reader?

It shows that atonement is not limited to only a one size fits all legal transaction but rather more involved than that. The article, though, not the best, does give enough information for any reader to investigate on his or her own and compare with what the bible teaches on this matter. The early 1st century church taught a Christ Victor atonement balanced with a substitutionary atonement model.

Sadly, many anti-christian folks that come to this forum to argue, wrongly assume that the Penal Substitutionary Atonement model of Anselm and Calvin is the only way there is and base their objections solely on this. Poster here on this thread is doing so now. Most likely, learned this from some chat room, or a paid forum idea spammer who knows nothing of Christianity and what we believe as Christians.

Instead of having a decent conversation on this subject where there is respect of each other, this poster, shows disdain. This is forum guideline violation as this forum is not for those here with a personal ax to grind. Those that do, should seek another forum to spout off on and leaving of their own free volition. Several of these post of his were deleted due to the inflammatory nature of these post. We here as moderators and members do try to help such folks find out who Christ is and allow these kind of posters for a time so the seed of the gospel can be planted. It is our hope and prayers that these seeds take root in good ground at a later date. Several of us here on this forum had such seeds sown in us during our time as militant atheists and later, what was shared with us made us rethink our positions and find Jesus Christ.

This forum is not for those whose mind is made up to fit a hostile anti-christian point of view and we suggest that such folks leave the forum in peace as it is not for you. I personally suggest that such folks go to a Islamic thread and start a thread there demeaning Mohammed, and if they survive the death threats, compare that response to ours, simply presenting a question concerning where they like to spend eternity, which they can freely reject and go their own way or accept the gospel message of Christ who transforms us out of darkness into wondrous light of life...
-
-
-

[outlaw]

Yes checkmate

You can actually see how stupid it is for Outlaw to make a rule TO HIS KIDS and then say 'Well, ok, since i love you, ill let you off the hook" i agree its ridiculous.

But then fail to see it when OUTLAW does it with vicarious redemption, it's the same thing!!! OUTLAW makes the rule about how sinners should be dealt with OUTLAW steps in and says "Well, ok, since i love you, ill let you off the hook" CHECKMATE ALL DAY LONG.

You just proved to yourself how stupid OUTLAW'S plan for redemption is FOR HIS OWN KIDS in your own words.

Might as well close this thread my point has been made.
-
-
-

No if you understood my analogy correctly i said it would be stupid for me to make a rule for my children knowing they would break it then when they break it, say 'since i love you, ill punish myself instead and let you off the hook'

I see that it would be stupid for god to do it why would i do it myself? your comprehension is poor did you finish primary school?

In your attempt to make me look like a hypocrite you ballsed it up and made yourself look silly.

[B. W.]

...No if you understood my analogy correctly i said it would be stupid for me to make a rule for my children knowing they would break it then when they break it, say 'since i love you, ill punish myself instead and let you off the hook'

I see that it would be stupid for god to do it why would i do it myself? your comprehension is poor did you finish primary school?

In your attempt to make me look like a hypocrite you ballsed it up and made yourself look silly.

The Cross

Matthew 26:14-15 Jesus was betrayed by a friend.

Jesus mentioned principle in Matthew 25:40: 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me.'

So outlaw, whom have you betrayed, rejected, abandoned? - Friends, family, strangers, yourself, how about God? Are you not betraying God as evidenced by what you wrote above? How many people have you betrayed, rejected, abandoned, let down all the while justifying yourself in doing so and this is not sin? You say, all people make mistakes - is that not done to absolve you of your own wrong doings?

You see, sin is more than stealing a candy bar…or a breaking set of laws. Without a blood sacrifice, one never views how sin slays the innocent to get out of a jam.

The Judaic/Christian concept of atonement simply summed up traditionally meant this: Seeing how the sins confessed and imparted to the sacrifice, slays innocents. From that, one says through this objective lesson,"I'll never do those things again," and walks away from their life course of slaying innocences. However, the blood of animals could not provide the means to empower one to walk free away from sin. In the OT, the folks there misused the atonement as the means of legal transactions to cover sins so they can remain unchanged and continue to live slaying life around around them.

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus in Matthew 25

So whom have you betrayed, rejected, abandoned in your life?

Matthew 26:3-4 people assembled and plotted to take Jesus by trickery and kill Him.

There are many ways to kill a person, yet, not physically murder them, such as in character assassination, or by anger, bitterness, and even vindictive attitudes as well as outright murder. So whom have you plotted harm too? Why are you actually here on this forum? What is you purpose? Whom do you wish to slay and why? The cross is speaking…

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus

We are doing you no harm. Many Christians do good and help others, yet you seek our demise and yet, this is not sin to you?

So outlaw, whom have you plotted and sought to murder? What relationships you seek to and have slain? - Friends, family, strangers, yourself, how about God?


Matthew 26:56 Jesus was forsaken by those whom he knew

How many people have you forsaken that knew you and counted on you and you think you are a good person – right? Friends, family, strangers, yourself, how about God?

And you say this is not sin?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 26:59-60 sought false testimony to kill Jesus and contrived it…

How many times you lied to get out of a jam, how many times you sought to slay someone with words – was it to friends, family, strangers, Christians, God?

Do you think God wants to live forever with such folks that justify their actions for such slaying and lying - have you not also done so in so many various ways too?

Ever told a lie, ever made fun of someone. ever hated another? Wished another harm and justify these in your mind as the right things to do - are you not still doing so now?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 26:66-68 spat and mocked him demanding that Christ perform for them on their terms

How many have you mocked in your life and scoffed at – Family, friends, self, strangers, Christians, and are you not doing so now with God?

Why should he speak to such who seek his demise? Yet he is…

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 26:75 his own friends denied knowing him…

How many times have you did likewise to Family, friends, self, strangers, God and justify yourself in doing so… I didn’t do it, it’s their fault when it wasn’t? Whom have you denied needed affection/nurture in time of their need – your own children, spouse, friends, family, stranger, Christians, God? Is you love mere hypocrisy?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus

Matthew 27:1,2 people plotted to kill Jesus and went to the governing authorities to carry this task – to legitimize their actions as legal under law. In fact in Luke 23:1-7 it mentions how a multitude sought to gain support of a governing authority to legalize their hate to murder a just person and falsely accused him of teaching errors and passing the buck to escape blame.

How many ways do you seek some sort of legal authority to justify what you do such as moral relativism, courts, to put to death what you do not like about – Family, friends, self, strangers, and are you not doing so now with God?

Do you not see how these people attempted to put words in Jesus mouth to falsely accuse him of wrong doing? Then demand that he cannot speak and we can’t use the bible – are you not doing this crime now? Are you not attempting to pit God’s love against its own nature to justify your anger and disbelief in God?

Do you not do so to others – family, friends, strangers, Christians, God?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Luke 23:8,9 Herod hoped to see some miracle done by Jesus but Jesus answered not a word...

Are you not saying this and doing so, what difference is there in Herod comments and yours and Jesus answered not a word?

You demand signs and that God if he exist must act your way or else? How are you – are you absolutely just and fair to all? Would you grant a choice of freedom to your enemies? Yet you deem us here, Christians, your enemies – do you not and this is not sin?

How do you make demands on – Family, friends, strangers, to live to your standards to prove themselves true to you? Are you not doing so now with God?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus

Luke 23:11,12 Jesus treated with contempt and mocked and sent Him back to governing authority and a deal between the governmental authorities was sealed by betraying the good to die.

Matthew 27:12-26 Governing authority sought and the people traded good in exchange for the bad dude…a compromise in morality justified by putting Jesus to death.

You see Outlaw, you and I put Jesus to death – why? Because we hate and justify it as the good thing to do. The blood of animals could never wake us to what we to do each other and God. No blood of beast can never cleanse us in such manner that we can be empowered to walk away from sin. Yet, the blood of a sinless Christ can because only he can give away what is his, the Holy Spirit, to seal and empower us to live a new life. Do beast have the Holy Spirit? Does any sinner have the Holy Spirit? NO... Only God can give what he has - himself to be a sacrifice to wake us up to what is in our hearts and empower us to change through his healing as Isaiah 53:1-12 states.

Why would anyone allow themselves to die, just to expose what is truly within the heart – sin - so one can see what they have done and do to family, friends, strangers, and yes, even God in order to be offered a release from continuing doing these things?

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 27:27-31 – Jesus treated with contempt – mocked, beaten

How often have you used morality in a relativistic fashion to justify the bad in exchange for the good? How many have you treated with contempt and mocked - – Family, friends, self, strangers, Christians, and seek legal justification in doing so either in your mind or use of legal force? Are you not doing so now and bearing false witnesses and tempting to pit God’s words against themselves and you think you are so noble and pure to deserve heaven or the peace of non-existence?

Who have you beaten with words and false innuendos? Are you not doing so now? Your love is just as false as all other folks are…you can’t even live up to your own standards of love you accuse others of not living up too.

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 27:33-45 – Jesus was crucified, garments divided, mocked to perform for the crowd so they could believe…

Are not you so doing this now? The nature of the human heart toward family, friends, strangers, God is revealed by the events portray uncovering what really is in the human heart – including yours… now, today…

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus


Matthew 27:46 why have you forsaken me…

Look around at the base of the cross – what do you see – mocking people who consent with the death of God, people demanding him to perform to their expectations or else, people dividing things God provides greedily. You see those that put the nails in him. You see, those that conspired and spoke falsehoods about him and those who trade the bad in exchange for the good… Did God really forsake Jesus or did humanity forsake God?

This is answered in the silence of the scene because we do the same to family, friends, strangers… Is it any wonder humanity – forsaken? Just like you - They don’t want God so why would God want you who mock what he went through just to wake you up so you come to your senses?

– are you not demanding God speak and perform for you, do you not desire God’s death and seek to expunge his goodness from the face of the planet? Why?

And you boldly assert that He must bow to your terms?

So can you not see how you live in treatment of family, friends, self, strangers, God… You expect him to obey you with a heart like yours?

You see, you do not know what you are doing and Jesus died at the hands of sinners so you can see and understand what caused God to turn his back on humanity but, however, did he really?

No…

He sent Christ Jesus to expose sin and then to bear those sins upon that cross suspended between God and man bearing your wrath and paying the death penalty for your actions so you do not have to bear the fiery wrath of God's rejected love angered. It is not all about Penal Substitutionary Atonement legal infractions. It is about you, Outlaw, waking the h--l up and see what you are doing in order to heal you. The substitution is this, Jesus died in our place paying the death penalty we all deserve for the real hate in the heart toward a God. It is about reconciliation brought about in a manner that transcends time and cultures - the death of the just for the unjust so the unjust can be empowered to walk right before God and man.

There you are. You fall on the subway tracks injured and unable to move. The train is heading right toward you. A complete stranger jumps upon the track, lifting you up into the arms of others. As you look into the eyes of your rescuer, he is hit by that train in your place. Think that would have any impact on your life. You were lying injured upon the track, a betraying, lying, manipulating, conniving, murdering, stealing lout and someone innocent comes and rescues you and dies in your place and what do you do? Say, "So what; the jerk, now I can take all he owns for saving me," or say, "I don't deserve this, I'll change my ways." The cross poses a test to all and you are being tested now...

and - Jesus said this…

Luke 23:34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive (release) them, for they do not know what they do." And they divided His garments and cast lots…

So how do you treat him when he offers this? Accept his release or continue to cast lots to divide his garments? Hmmm, Why do you continue to cast lots? Cannot you see God's true motive is to expose who and what you are really like to friends, family, strangers, yourself, Christians, God himself in order to wake you up?

You know nothing of the cross or God but rather only theories and have an ax to grind. You put Christ on the cross everyday and what you have written testifies of this on this very forum.

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus

Prove sin? How to an ungrateful hate filled, manipulative, diabolically inclined person as you are who seeks to twist things to escape any wrong doing on his or her part. Unless one sees what they have done to others by viewing the cross of Christ, they will never see what sin really is and why God would go through such extreme lengths to try to save the life of an ungrateful lout.

Prove sin – it’s been proved – within you, alive and well.

…inasmuch as you do it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me… said Jesus

The rest is between you and God to make.

Isa 53:1 Who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

Isa 53:2-3 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, And as a root out of dry ground. He has no form or comeliness; And when we see Him, There is no beauty that we should desire Him. 3 He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.

Isa 53:4-5 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows; Yet we esteemed Him stricken, Smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; The chastisement for our peace was upon Him, And by His stripes we are healed.

Isa 53:6-7 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, And as a sheep before its shearers is silent, So He opened not His mouth.

Isa 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. 9 And they made His grave with the wicked— But with the rich at His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

Isa 53:10-12 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. 11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, And He shall divide the spoil with the strong, Because He poured out His soul unto death, And He was numbered with the transgressors, And He bore the sin of many, And made intercession for the transgressors. NKJV

Luke 23:34 Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive (release) them, for they do not know what they do." And they divided His garments and cast lots…

So how do you treat him when he offers this? Accept his release or continue to cast lots to divide his garments?
-
-
-

[PaulSacramento]

I don't understand why people ask question that they DON'T want the answers too..
I don't understand people that think disagreement means the answer is not valid or wrong.
I don't understand people that think that because THEY can't imagine or understand an answer to be correct, then it must be wrong.
What makes it even MORE funny is that IF a person that doubts evolution ( to use a common example) because they don't understand it or can't imagine it working, people that believe in evolution will say, "He just because you don't get it, doesn't mean it is wrong) AND YET those very people will use that VERY ARGUMENT to deny God !

Look if you don't understand and someone is trying to help you understand, the LEAST you can do is TRY to understand.
If you don't wanna learn or understand, like outlaw is making it clear that he doesn't, then don't ask !

[RickD]

Checkmate

What was it that FL said about debating with atheists?

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Debating with an atheist is like playing chess with a monkey: no matter how good you are, the monkey will knock over all the pieces, defecate on the board and claim victory.

Checkmate indeed! Now who's gonna clean up the monkey poop?

[1over137]

I guess some woman.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Checkmate

What was it that FL said about debating with atheists?

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Debating with an atheist is like playing chess with a monkey: no matter how good you are, the monkey will knock over all the pieces, defecate on the board and claim victory.

Checkmate indeed! Now who's gonna clean up the monkey poop?

I guess some woman.

It is a woman's job, Excellency...but since you're the Queen, you can order Melanie to do the clean up.

FL

[RickD]

Why do you always tease the poor women?

Leave them alone FL! They have plenty of cooking and cleaning to do without you pestering them!

[Nicki]

Not sure if you're checking this again, outlaw, but thanks for discussing this with us for so long. I think there's been some unnecessary unpleasantness on both sides though.

I've been reading a book by Francis S. Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, who came to believe in God and become a Christian because of the complexity he discovered (for himself at least) in both the origins of the universe and the microscopic workings within living things. He does believe that the evidence points overwhelmingly towards the Big Bang and evolution as God's method of creation, but I think he would disagree that we are born atheists. He points to the universal search for God in all known cultures and the sense of right and wrong which has been basically the same in everyone everywhere - even when there would be no evolutionary advantage in it. God seems to have given us consciences and a need for him.

He has also given us a certain amount of intelligence but he says, 'My ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.' It seems to me that many things God's made are far more complex than anything people can make. Similarly, his salvation plan might seem stupid to some but maybe some things are beyond our limited intelligence. Maybe there's been more going on in the spiritual realm than we know of, unlimited by time and space and so on. The idea of (eternal) death being punishment is only part of the picture - there's also the idea of Jesus defeating death for us when he died and rose again - the Christ Victor view. The Bible also says that God disciplines those he loves, his children, to keep us on the right path - not with eternal death though.

As far as the slavery thing - that's hard to answer. I think slaves were just a fact of life back then but the Bible certainly doesn't say we should have slaves. As others have said, it was Christians who pushed for the abolition of slavery in more recent times because they could see it was incompatible with the Bible as a whole and with God's nature of valuing every person. There was also the issue of young children dying without having heard of Jesus - I don't think they necessarily go to hell; I think God being just judges us based on what we've done about what we know of him; which in the case of a young child is not a lot. But it's better to know God in this life; Francis Collins describes the distance he felt from God once he was convinced of God's existence but aware of his imperfect nature and God's holiness - until he investigated the writings about Jesus Christ and eventually surrendered to him.

Best wishes to you and anyone else reading in your search.

[melanie]

Checkmate

What was it that FL said about debating with atheists?

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:
Debating with an atheist is like playing chess with a monkey: no matter how good you are, the monkey will knock over all the pieces, defecate on the board and claim victory.

Checkmate indeed! Now who's gonna clean up the monkey poop?

I guess some woman.

It is a woman's job, Excellency...but since you're the Queen, you can order Melanie to do the clean up.

FL

Ohh FL your attempt at
Hana is much too nice and smart anyways, you though are an entirely different story
How well do you think that would work out for you?

[PaulSacramento]

Not sure if you're checking this again, outlaw, but thanks for discussing this with us for so long. I think there's been some unnecessary unpleasantness on both sides though.

I've been reading a book by Francis S. Collins, head of the Human Genome Project, who came to believe in God and become a Christian because of the complexity he discovered (for himself at least) in both the origins of the universe and the microscopic workings within living things. He does believe that the evidence points overwhelmingly towards the Big Bang and evolution as God's method of creation, but I think he would disagree that we are born atheists. He points to the universal search for God in all known cultures and the sense of right and wrong which has been basically the same in everyone everywhere - even when there would be no evolutionary advantage in it. God seems to have given us consciences and a need for him.

He has also given us a certain amount of intelligence but he says, 'My ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.' It seems to me that many things God's made are far more complex than anything people can make. Similarly, his salvation plan might seem stupid to some but maybe some things are beyond our limited intelligence. Maybe there's been more going on in the spiritual realm than we know of, unlimited by time and space and so on. The idea of (eternal) death being punishment is only part of the picture - there's also the idea of Jesus defeating death for us when he died and rose again - the Christ Victor view. The Bible also says that God disciplines those he loves, his children, to keep us on the right path - not with eternal death though.

As far as the slavery thing - that's hard to answer. I think slaves were just a fact of life back then but the Bible certainly doesn't say we should have slaves. As others have said, it was Christians who pushed for the abolition of slavery in more recent times because they could see it was incompatible with the Bible as a whole and with God's nature of valuing every person. There was also the issue of young children dying without having heard of Jesus - I don't think they necessarily go to hell; I think God being just judges us based on what we've done about what we know of him; which in the case of a young child is not a lot. But it's better to know God in this life; Francis Collins describes the distance he felt from God once he was convinced of God's existence but aware of his imperfect nature and God's holiness - until he investigated the writings about Jesus Christ and eventually surrendered to him.

Best wishes to you and anyone else reading in your search.

I have read Dr.Collins book and recommend it to anyone.
I also recommend the biologos website for those that want to see how many people of science reconcile their faith with science.
www.biologos.org