Who made the rule that death is the punishment for sin?

[1over137]

Paul, I just have had great read on Faraday http://silas.psfc.mit.edu/Faraday/

[Philip]

Maybe there's been more going on in the spiritual realm than we know of

Thing is, we can't see what's in an unbeliever's heart and mind, we can only see the surface. But God INTIMATELY knows both!

Romans 1 seems to say that what one ALREADY knows, at a minimum, is that God exists, and that rejecting even what He has ALREADY revealed about Himself to an unbeliever is enough for Him to condemn them:

"For the wrath of God lis revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth (it is not GOD who hides the truth from men, but THEY suppress the truth by their own unrighteousness). For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them (So there ARE things that everyone can know about God because HE has shown it to them). For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made (and He's given this evidence ever since the World's creation, and those are powerful evidences He's provided ALL). So they are without excuse (Notice, that a lack of faith in Christ is not even mentioned - as what they ALREADY know and have rejected are enough God has ALREADY revealed to them, to condemn them. Plus, one cannot reject God without also rejecting Jesus). For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they obecame futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things (And by not honoring what God has ALREADY provided ALL people, and by THEIR making the EXCHANGE of His provision of knowledge and of His presence and provision, for idols of their own making - and the very same goes on today: false gods, money, materialism, drugs, the occult, etc, people are constantly exchanging God's truths for such things, for which they are condemned)."

(And thus the consequences:)

"Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to tthe dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator (thus, again, they EXCHANGE what God reveals and offers for the evil things they pursue instead), who is blessed forever! Amen."

"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions (why people pursue sexual immorality - both heterosexual, homosexual and whatever else). For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."

"And since THEY did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but egive approval to those who practice them."

IF one wants to honor what God has ALREADY shown them, He will show them more, and will draw, encourage and lead them all the way to salvation. Location is no problem for our omni-present Lord! And communicating with Him, no matter the remote outpost or jungle, is (as the Apostle Paul intones) as close as one's own breath. And let's not forget, that He is the one who put a search for Himself on people's hearts, yet they fill it with so many wrong things and false gods.

Acts 17 26-27: "From one man (Jesus!) He made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. God did this so that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him (So He distributed people in time and place so they would SEEK Him, and thus, His foreknowledge of all things allows Him to precisely place people in place, time and history, per His eternal purposes and plans), though he is not far from any one of us." (our own breath!).

Again, we can only see the surface of what people think and know about God. And as THEY have often suppressed and rejected even what He has already shown them, THEY have caused their own blindness as to what they CAN know but that they SEEM to not have ever known.

[PaulSacramento]

Paul, I just have had great read on Faraday http://silas.psfc.mit.edu/Faraday/

That was a great read, thanks

[Stardust]

Either there’s grace, or there isn’t. Either death is defeated, or it isn’t.

If human beings are not morally worthy of whatever “salvation” is, then Jesus’s saving of humanity is simply not a praiseworthy action at all. Either it’s moral to save human beings, or it isn’t. Either God’s original anger at humans for failing to live up to impossibly inhuman demands is righteous, or Jesus’ scheme for salvation is, but it cannot be both.
http://badidea.wordpress.com/2008/03/18 ... -morality/

Thoughts?

[RickD]

Stardust,

Please post the link you are quoting. Per forum rules. I attached it to your post.

[Stardust]

Stardust,

Please post the link you are quoting. Per forum rules. I attached it to your post.

I tried to but my post was declined

[B. W.]

Either there’s grace, or there isn’t. Either death is defeated, or it isn’t.

If human beings are not morally worthy of whatever “salvation” is, then Jesus’s saving of humanity is simply not a praiseworthy action at all. Either it’s moral to save human beings, or it isn’t. Either God’s original anger at humans for failing to live up to impossibly inhuman demands is righteous, or Jesus’ scheme for salvation is, but it cannot be both.
http://badidea.wordpress.com/2008/03/18 ... -morality/

Thoughts?

One thing the article shows is the effect of not understanding why God saved found in John 3:16 - God Loved Humanity but Humanity does not love God. Roman's chapter one and two points this out.

The article's author merely is reacting to Anselm, Augustine, and Calvin's development of Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory and further developed as a one size fits all model for modern evangelism. While it is true that God leaves no stone unturned due his nature of justice, the legal aspect of the cross is there in the bible but there are other stones as well that were not left unturned too.

In Fact John 3:16, 17,18,19,20,21 covers these pretty well. Humanity nailed Jesus to the cross, Humanity spat and put him on Trial, Humanity bore false witness, lied, and plotted Jesus betrayal and death upon the cross. It was Humanity who beat Jesus, mocked him, divided his garments, had him carry an heavy wooded beam he could not bear after the torture he received. If God the Father was in these people doing this to Jesus, then, God sinned by lying, plotting, betraying. No that is not the case. As A W Tozer mentions - it is we - humanity who nailed Jesus on the cross.

In doing so, Jesus exposed sin in humanity and made it manifest in an objective lesson that transcends time and cultures. God's love would do this, go thru this, in order to save those that simply believe in him. If he has your faith, he has your heart and from there love for God is reborn when before there was none but only open hostility. In Dying, Jesus paid the price - a blood price to set us free from what enslaves us and shackles us to our all our sins such as betraying, mocking, beating, plotting, stealing, put on trial others, ourselves, and God. That is the message of the cross. A Great love shown to an unloving lot in order to wake them up in order to save their lives from God's love angered by such vile rejection of so great a love.

The cross is about reconciliation brought forth by the work of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. Paying a legal infraction alone simply is only one small part of the big picture and the author of the article misses this completely. In fact, the author in his article displays the same hate and disdain and need to keep putting God on trial in order to kill him from his life and others so much so that it reveals to me great doubt that he was ever really born again to begin with as he lives in this bitter sin still - not free from it.

Yes, it pleased the Father to crush the Son in order to save and impart love for God back into a new heart given to man. It is how he did so and why that baffles so many: that by the Son many will be made righteous - reconciled, forgiven, cleansed. healed, set free. Jesus paid our death penalty in a far deeper sense than mere mortal death. He spared us from God's just wrath of love spurned/angered, and just eternal recompense folks so willingly deny they deserve for all they have done to others, themselves, and God. Please re-read Isaiah 53:1-12 again along with John 3:14-21 and may the holy Spirit enlighten you more on this matter further than I can go here on this forum. There is far to many deep things concerning the cross and resurrection than limiting it to one particular theme. By seeing this deepness of cross, our love grows for God more and more at each gaze because he first loved us...
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[Stardust]

Either there’s grace, or there isn’t. Either death is defeated, or it isn’t.

If human beings are not morally worthy of whatever “salvation” is, then Jesus’s saving of humanity is simply not a praiseworthy action at all. Either it’s moral to save human beings, or it isn’t. Either God’s original anger at humans for failing to live up to impossibly inhuman demands is righteous, or Jesus’ scheme for salvation is, but it cannot be both.
http://badidea.wordpress.com/2008/03/18 ... -morality/

Thoughts?

One thing the article shows is the effect of not understanding why God saved found in John 3:16 - God Loved Humanity but Humanity does not love God. Roman's chapter one and two points this out.

The article's author merely is reacting to Anselm, Augustine, and Calvin's development of Penal Substitutionary Atonement theory and further developed as a one size fits all model for modern evangelism. While it is true that God leaves no stone unturned due his nature of justice, the legal aspect of the cross is there in the bible but there are other stones as well that were not left unturned too.

In Fact John 3:16, 17,18,19,20,21 covers these pretty well. Humanity nailed Jesus to the cross, Humanity spat and put him on Trial, Humanity bore false witness, lied, and plotted Jesus betrayal and death upon the cross. It was Humanity who beat Jesus, mocked him, divided his garments, had him carry an heavy wooded beam he could not bear after the torture he received. If God the Father was in these people doing this to Jesus, then, God sinned by lying, plotting, betraying. No that is not the case. As A W Tozer mentions - it is we - humanity who nailed Jesus on the cross.

In doing so, Jesus exposed sin in humanity and made it manifest in an objective lesson that transcends time and cultures. God's love would do this, go thru this, in order to save those that simply believe in him. If he has your faith, he has your heart and from there love for God is reborn when before there was none but only open hostility. In Dying, Jesus paid the price - a blood price to set us free from what enslaves us and shackles us to our all our sins such as betraying, mocking, beating, plotting, stealing, put on trial others, ourselves, and God. That is the message of the cross. A Great love shown to an unloving lot in order to wake them up in order to save their lives from God's love angered by such vile rejection of so great a love.

The cross is about reconciliation brought forth by the work of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection. Paying a legal infraction alone simply is only one small part of the big picture and the author of the article misses this completely. In fact, the author in his article displays the same hate and disdain and need to keep putting God on trial in order to kill him from his life and others so much so that it reveals to me great doubt that he was ever really born again to begin with as he lives in this bitter sin still - not free from it.

Yes, it pleased the Father to crush the Son in order to save and impart love for God back into a new heart given to man. It is how he did so and why that baffles so many: that by the Son many will be made righteous - reconciled, forgiven, cleansed. healed, set free. Jesus paid our death penalty in a far deeper sense than mere mortal death. He spared us from God's just wrath of love spurned/angered, and just eternal recompense folks so willingly deny they deserve for all they have done to others, themselves, and God. Please re-read Isaiah 53:1-12 again along with John 3:14-21 and may the holy Spirit enlighten you more on this matter further than I can go here on this forum. There is far to many deep things concerning the cross and resurrection than limiting it to one particular theme. By seeing this deepness of cross, our love grows for God more and more at each gaze because he first loved us...
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You say humanity nailed jesus to the cross, it's my understanding that jesus was part of gods plan all along, so why plan a saviour, if jesus purpose was to to be a sacrifice all along then why blame humans for carrying it out?
If this whole thing is gods plan to save humanity from gods wrath why get mad at humans for playing their part in it?
If god is mad at humans then he's mad at himself because he's supposed to be the all powerful one, so why not create things in a way that a sacrifice was never necessary?
God seems either incompetent or impotent to me.

But either humans are not worthy of salvation therefore god is righteous in saying so, or we are worthy and Jesus sacrifice is righteous.

[1over137]

Question for you Stardust: If God foreknows that humans will turn from him, should he not allow people to turn from him? And should he not send Jesus to try to turn some people back?

[B. W.]

...You say humanity nailed jesus to the cross, it's my understanding that jesus was part of gods plan all along, so why plan a saviour, if jesus purpose was to to be a sacrifice all along then why blame humans for carrying it out?
If this whole thing is gods plan to save humanity from gods wrath why get mad at humans for playing their part in it?
If god is mad at humans then he's mad at himself because he's supposed to be the all powerful one, so why not create things in a way that a sacrifice was never necessary?
God seems either incompetent or impotent to me.

But either humans are not worthy of salvation therefore god is righteous in saying so, or we are worthy and Jesus sacrifice is righteous.

So the Marine who tossed himself on a grenade during combat saving his squad sacrifice was in vain too?

John 3:16 "For God so loved..."

Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." NASB

Why are you mad at God?

How could it be made known to you are angry at God if God remained silent by not offending you by dying to save your life?

Larger question is why would humanity walk away from God?

In fact, why do our own children walk away from us and some commit some horrendous crimes?

Do you think slavery is the greatest good with its denying freedom of thought as that is how you would have done things if you were God and thus avoid the responsibility of actually being all powerful able to work through all contingencies? How could such denial as you - you propose be just?

You, like Milton, try to make human beings out as victims of God but rather it is human beings that seek to make a victim out of God. The cross reveals that about the human heart. Once seen, freely, in the human heart one simply can return to God and be changed. It is this change you fear so much so that you already made up your mind that you are so much better than god...

You are stuck on hyper Calvinistic penal substitutionary atonement and are failing to see any other topic concerning the deepness of the cross
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[Kenny]

So the Marine who tossed himself on a grenade during combat saving his squad sacrifice was in vain too?

If the Marine were all knowing, all powerful, all wise and pefectly good, he would have prevented the grenade from being tossed towards his squad in the first place; don't cha think?

Ken

[Kenny]

Question for you Stardust: If God foreknows that humans will turn from him, should he not allow people to turn from him? And should he not send Jesus to try to turn some people back?

IMO if God foreknows that humans will turn from him, he should have made us in a way that we would not want to turn from him; kinda like in Heaven.

Ken

[Stardust]

Question for you Stardust: If God foreknows that humans will turn from him, should he not allow people to turn from him? And should he not send Jesus to try to turn some people back?

IMO if God foreknows that humans will turn from him, he should have made us in a way that we would not want to turn from him; kinda like in Heaven.

Ken

Incompetent, impotent or evil. Comes to mind

[Stardust]

youtube video deleted by moderator. Stardust, please don't post videos with the f word.

Pretty much explains it all.

[RickD]

Question for you Stardust: If God foreknows that humans will turn from him, should he not allow people to turn from him? And should he not send Jesus to try to turn some people back?

IMO if God foreknows that humans will turn from him, he should have made us in a way that we would not want to turn from him; kinda like in Heaven.

Ken

Incompetent, impotent or evil. Comes to mind

Free will, love, and people that aren't robots comes to mind.

You want God to FORCE people to love Him? That is evil. Love that is forced, is not really love, now is it? Think about it.