Pain And Suffering

[Believer]

Okay, I know that God is SUPPOSED to be an all-knowing, all-loving, all-caring God. This is a common argument from atheists. However, it struck me last night about something is wrong with this picture. First of all, God can lift evil, yet He doesn't, He will do healings on people or miracles on random people, even for people that really don't need it. I don't want to feel like a skeptic here but to me that sounds whatever happens to that person, it is either their own self healing themselves and/or fulfilling their own prayers without knowing it but attributing it to God.

What I want to get at here is that my grandpa has been serving the Lord since he was born. He has always been deeply religious and deeply spiritual, went to church every Sunday, he did it all. He is I think either 74 or 78, I can't remember, but he is in HORRIBLE pain. He has a leg length difference, he has diabetes, his hips hurt, he can barely walk because his entire two legs are literally like bones and skin, no flesh. He has many problems. His wife of 50+ decades passed away in 2002 due to alzheimer's, and other problems (it is sad to see her when she doesn't even remember you), and she was also deeply religious and spiritual and served the Lord. I don't really enjoy open casket funerals anymore (been to my grandmas and my cousins) and cremation . So anyways, my grandpa said he wanted to die within 5 years after his wife died, now he reduced it to two. He visits us, Idaho to Oregon, about twice a month to get treatments done on him but that only lasts so long. My dad is so busy being the doctor he is, we don't have the time to go see my grandpa anymore. My dad took after what his dad (my grandpa) did. My grandpa has been living by himself since his wife's death in 2002, he has had this lady friend but I don't think he sees her anymore because he hurts too bad. Also his dog was put down because his dog got too old.

The question is, WHY does my grandpa have to suffer this bad, when he has served the Lord for as long as he has lived? It doesn't make sense. Here he is, single, no one to talk to, no animals to talk to, in EXTREME pain, has more problems, and you just get the impression of him wanting and looking forward to death. Him laid next to his corpse bride in the windy dark cemetery is his wish. I have prayed among others for him to not suffer this bad, and nothing has happened, he continually gets worse. He was seen crying on one of the visits to us, talking about death. Maybe he has been praying to die. I don't know. All I know is that I get the impression now that either God doesn't exist (yes I have seen the many evidences for His existence, but you never know, people will do what people want to see), or He doesn't care, love, and know about my grandpa. Maybe God is limited, maybe He can't serve everyone at once, maybe God isn't a personal God. Maybe He just isn't real.

Anyways, the reason why this triggered this thought was because I was looking at books on Amazon.com about this issue, and there are just the theist vs. atheist debates. It looks like the atheist has it best when it comes to the debate on evil and suffering in the world.

This is a serious issue for me, so please don't make fun of ANY of this. My cousins mother and father, which my cousin committed suicide last year, went atheist on us and the rest of my family. They practice buddhism, but they are I guess more on the atheist side now. So many people of strong faith within my outer families have just had horrible problems with them and then they die.

Please help me, this is tough for me. There are books out there about a theist vs. atheist which both are of the highest debaters, and both equal out to the same. It makes it tough to know. Because there are these extreme debaters, I could really use the help with all the debating skills you have, to be put to use.

There is probably more to say, but I can't think of it right now.

[Ark~Magic]

Think of Christ's suffering. He would understand the ammount of pain your grandfather has experienced, and he knows everything else. I think it is the problems of this world which have brought these things on, not God. But if he were to know God, then death is not the ultimate tragedy! There is victory for those who manage to come through the pain. The time we spend suffering on this earth will be nothing compared to the eternal lives we will have with God. I pray that you can find a way to make his pain and suffering lessen. One way you can do that is by spending time and sharing your love with him, and reminding him of God's power and promise.

I am skeptical about alot of things that you seem skeptical about that most Christians claim, but, I believe it is initially the problem of Man that most suffering occurs. They ruin the environment, they go their own ways and hurt others, and it's mainly because people don't want to co-operate with God. However, by doing so, we can lessen the pain of this earth and help others. To a person who knows God death can only mean victory. But God cannot just interfere with the freedom of others, I think that is one thing. We were all given a choice. But, if we stay under the wings of Christ then nothing can harm us, even if we should pass away.

Here is a good article: http://doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Probl ... ering.html

[Believer]

Just adding on, the quote remains the same:

Okay, I know that God is SUPPOSED to be an all-knowing, all-loving, all-caring God. This is a common argument from atheists. However, it struck me last night about something is wrong with this picture. First of all, God can lift evil, yet He doesn't, He will do healings on people or miracles on random people, even for people that really don't need it. I don't want to feel like a skeptic here but to me that sounds whatever happens to that person, it is either their own self healing themselves and/or fulfilling their own prayers without knowing it but attributing it to God.

What I want to get at here is that my grandpa has been serving the Lord since he was born. He has always been deeply religious and deeply spiritual, went to church every Sunday, he did it all. He is I think either 74 or 78, I can't remember, but he is in HORRIBLE pain. He has a leg length difference, he has diabetes, his hips hurt, he can barely walk because his entire two legs are literally like bones and skin, no flesh. He has many problems. His wife of 50+ decades passed away in 2002 due to alzheimer's, and other problems (it is sad to see her when she doesn't even remember you), and she was also deeply religious and spiritual and served the Lord. I don't really enjoy open casket funerals anymore (been to my grandmas and my cousins) and cremation . So anyways, my grandpa said he wanted to die within 5 years after his wife died, now he reduced it to two. He visits us, Idaho to Oregon, about twice a month to get treatments done on him but that only lasts so long. My dad is so busy being the doctor he is, we don't have the time to go see my grandpa anymore. My dad took after what his dad (my grandpa) did. My grandpa has been living by himself since his wife's death in 2002, he has had this lady friend but I don't think he sees her anymore because he hurts too bad. Also his dog was put down because his dog got too old.

The question is, WHY does my grandpa have to suffer this bad, when he has served the Lord for as long as he has lived? It doesn't make sense. Here he is, single, no one to talk to, no animals to talk to, in EXTREME pain, has more problems, and you just get the impression of him wanting and looking forward to death. Him laid next to his corpse bride in the windy dark cemetery is his wish. I have prayed among others for him to not suffer this bad, and nothing has happened, he continually gets worse. He was seen crying on one of the visits to us, talking about death. Maybe he has been praying to die. I don't know. All I know is that I get the impression now that either God doesn't exist (yes I have seen the many evidences for His existence, but you never know, people will do what people want to see), or He doesn't care, love, and know about my grandpa. Maybe God is limited, maybe He can't serve everyone at once, maybe God isn't a personal God. Maybe He just isn't real.

Anyways, the reason why this triggered this thought was because I was looking at books on Amazon.com about this issue, and there are just the theist vs. atheist debates. It looks like the atheist has it best when it comes to the debate on evil and suffering in the world.

This is a serious issue for me, so please don't make fun of ANY of this. My cousins mother and father, which my cousin committed suicide last year, went atheist on us and the rest of my family. They practice buddhism, but they are I guess more on the atheist side now. So many people of strong faith within my outer families have just had horrible problems with them and then they die.

Please help me, this is tough for me. There are books out there about a theist vs. atheist which both are of the highest debaters, and both equal out to the same. It makes it tough to know. Because there are these extreme debaters, I could really use the help with all the debating skills you have, to be put to use.

There is probably more to say, but I can't think of it right now.

Okay, so moving on. I am having many problems in many areas of my life, they are as follows:

1.) I feel like a wannabe Christian - I do good things for people over the internet that need help with life, but I feel that I am not helping myself. I pray, it doesn't feel genuine, I make repentances, it doesn't feel genuine, I try to ask Jesus into my life, it doesn't feel genuine, I do a lot of things that don't feel genuine. I just feel like an atheist and a religious person at the same. I know that's weird, but it's true. I just want a good powerful life.

2.) Intrusive Thinking - I have obsessive compulsive disorder and I was recently diagnosed with having intrusive thinking which is a branch of OCD. Whenever I think or say something positive, immediately after that thought or words, a bunch of negative stuff floods my mind about that positive thing. So for example when I think like or say something like a precious child, it then turns over to a hideous demonic person. I feel possessed. My psychiatrist says I can't control it but I should monitor it. When I am in prayer with other people besides myself or with other religious people, I think they are the most stupid people on earth, it's like I despise them. When we do ANYTHING that is religious and/or spiritual or speak about it, I automatically think this is all crap, why am I even listening to this? It is very bothersome.

3.) Unwanted Hatred & Thoughts - Now this is weird because in some ways it goes along with intrusive thinking. Whenever I am near a person, or think about a person, I have this hatred towards them and thoughts about killing them just because they are simple human mortals. My grandpa as I elaborated on the above quote, comes to our house at least 2 times a month. For some reason I can't stand being around him. Him being deeply religious and spiritual, I can't take it. There is nothing wrong with him that would make me not like him, I just HATE being around him, I don't talk to him much, I avoid talking to him. Basically, if it is someone outside my primary family, all this will happen. I went on a hiking trip with my Men's Fellowship Group on Saturday and although it was good, for some reason I couldn't stand people talking about God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, any of that religious stuff.

4.) M.asturbation - Well, lets just say I am able to go longer without doing it like about 5 days at a time, but I still stumble. I am getting tried of having to repent, sin, repent, sin, etc... It gets ridiculous, especially to God.

5.) Healing - I am actually doubting that Jesus does help someone overcome addictions or problems. There are stories of people that go through ministries to help them, but never works. Like one classic example is homosexuality, people will go through these ministries either coming out worse than when they first started or the don't change. Is God/Jesus/Holy Spirit dead?

I just don't know what to think anymore. I just feel that life is a joke, religion is a joke, everything is a joke and then you just die.

[Ark~Magic]

Christ is not dead. I had been praying for help with things for years and God revealed the solutions to me. But I realized the majority of it was my job after that. For example, he revealed the solution and way out but it was in my power to accomplish the rest and I am still working on that. Alot of things are in our power, we must co-operate with God, and we need to trust God to make our way out and follow his philosophy. Alot of these ex-homo people may have had ego problems and other problems that made it difficult for them to leave or stuff that has not been revealed to them yet to understand what is wrong. We need God to help us do that. I do not doubt God. I was once at a similar point like you (we infact have VERY similar and some same issues!) but my understanding of God and my faith have become more solid after it was revealed to me, I couldn't deny it. The philosophies of Christ need to be put into action in order to unleash their power in the world. It's just the way things work.

The OCD thing needs serious treatment. I used to suffer from it but I have been trying to control it. Is there any medication for it? I've been taking Risperdal, but that's a different drug.

Also, try exorcising any negative things in your life ATM like music, friends, people, etc. and spend some time in a positive environment. Even if that means going on a vacation. I did some of the same. For example, I used to listen to ****ty gothic music, but I realized it did [poop] for me so I only listen to happy or positive music and my attitude has been affected as well. I also gave up and disconnected myself from people I knew online and IRL that were bad influences and have been very happy. I just dwell on good things. It's a discipline, you have to train yourself to only focus on the good things. Effort rewards, anything is possible if you try, and especially with God's light.

[Believer]

I just feel that God should help us out and never let go. I just see to common most of days that it is fulfilling the prayers to God of ones self, so God never was in the picture of helping. Like for the gay people trying to come out of it, why must they work so INCREDIBLY hard to become an ex-gay? They work extra hard to become whom they want to be, I see no God in the picture. To me, it seems that people who want things or get better, or whatever have to do it themselves, without God being involved. I don't know. I don't know why the sudden doubting. Like I said, I just feel like a wannabe Christian. God tells us to LOVE Him with everything we have, and I just don't have it, I feel "plain".

[Ark~Magic]

God IS involved. Christ's philosophy and teachings are absolute, so they will always work and lead people to the right path. His word is absolute. I think it isn't just the God of oneself, I think God IS speaking to people to show us things, we just tend to be decieved by our fleshly limitations that it is ourselves, but we cannot prove that, and in fact we just asked God, it shall be revealed eventually. I had alot of weird paranormal things happen to me like strange meetings and things happening unnaturally, and I cried because I was so disturbed that these things were happening but then I prayed to God to help me understand what they were, if he was even there. And it came to me that, it was God trying to speak to me. It always was.

Sometimes we tend to become too obsessed and dwell too much on the things in this world, like attatchments that cause us to ***** so much with God and other things. We need to be strong and remember that everything is possible in God, and he is eternal compared to everything else.
"If God is for us, then who can be against us?"

[Judah]

Brian, try this to maybe get a clue what is going on...
Go back over each of your posts and highlight everywhere that you have written "I feel..." or "I don't feel..."

It seems to me that you are describing your feelings very often as your doubts. I know that you are having intrusive thoughts that also have a sense of being alien, but there are two things you should notice here.
One is those alien thoughts... the "horrific temptation" kind, or the simply contrary and nasty kind, etc.
The other is how much you are treating your feelings as the basis of your beliefs.

Feelings are notorious for being changeable. I'm sure you have noticed that often enough yourself.
Base your beliefs only on your feelings and it is the same as building your house on sand which the changing tides will constantly wash away.
Beliefs need to be built on rocks, not sand.
To stand firm they need to be the results of decisions.
You can make a decision, feel right about it one day, then another day you may be tired or not feeling well or whatever and your decision does not sound quite so great. But it is your feelings that are chipping away at it, and you can recognize your feelings and continue along the same path regardless.

All of us go through patches were doubts crop up and plague us, and other times when all is well and faith is strong. That is quite normal and ordinary. The important thing is to recognize that is the case, and not get fazed by it. Don't let your feelings rock the boat.

Those alien thoughts... I am sure you know quite a lot about your own thought processes, having been in therapy for a while and able to ask intelligent questions about yourself. In a way, they are fickle things too. Be aware of them, but don't let them rock the boat either.

Go back to the decisions you made about God and affirm them to yourself. They are the rocks on which to build your house... not the changeable feelings and the alien and obsessional thoughts.

Well, that was rather a combination of metaphors, but I hope you can see through what is happening and not let it upset you unduly.

I thought that was a good article that you linked to, Ark~Magic.
Did you read it, Brian? Basically, this world is not Heaven. But believers can still experience tremendous joy, peace and love in their relationship with God despite the pain and suffering they go through as a part of life here on Earth. I am sorry your Grandpa is suffering so much, and the fact that you hate what is happening to him does show that you care despite what other feelings pop up.

[Believer]

Thank you Judah for those kind words. Yes, I do often to most of the time base my beliefs upon my feelings. But what about the feelings you (I) get from God, should that be ignored as well? There are false belief feelings and true belief feelings, for me it is hard to decipher the false from the true. I just spent about 2 hours talking to my dad about this situation as posted on this thread. He told me that I still haven't COMPLETELY put my trust and faith into God, and I agree, I am still trying to figure out HOW to stop being such a self-centered person I am, and reach out to God. It's like there is a barrier there or that I am capped at a limit of how far I can go TO God. My dad says I need to get into a church, and I need to do something with my life instead of sitting at my computer all day long everyday. I agree with that as well. Any suggestions to a church I should go to based on what you get from my behavior on my posts? I don't fully understand what the difference between a denominational church is to a non-denominational church. Clarification on this would help, as well as what kind of denomination I should get into. Me and my family used to be part of the Church of the Brethren, but that was over a decade ago. That is a denomination. Any advice would help me. Thanks!

[Judah]

I'm not much good on the "which church should I go to?" question. I still have not figured that one out for myself. And as well as that, I don't know all the different kinds of churches you have in the USA.

For myself, I know some church denominations I would not want to join on a matter of doctrine, mainly. I know I would stay well away from anywhere that espoused liberal theology, for instance. But other than that, I think it will be a case of going around attending a few to see which one fits most with me. I would want to know about their beliefs, and a few more things besides.

Brian, I suspect your Dad is very probably right... about getting out and doing things. You describe yourself as self-centred, and a good way to deal with that is go looking to do things for other people - helpful things, caring things - and doing them even when you'd rather be doing something else. Sometimes it is quite hard to put others first when there is something else that you really want to be doing instead, but that is what you must do. It is a good discipline to learn to do that. Do you notice other people doing that? Your parents maybe? Your father probably has to respond to people's needs even when he has worked hard all day, is tired, and would much rather go home and read a book. Your mother would have had to put you first when you were little. Just ask her about how she got up to you in the night when you were a baby, especially when you were sick and crying, and she was tired as well and needed to sleep. Putting others first is excellent training in loving others - it is loving others - and that is how to love God. The more you do that, the more you show your love for God, the stronger your love will become and the less you will feel like the "wannabe Christian" you mentioned in your second post here.

The following is also from your second post:

"Maybe God is limited, maybe He can't serve everyone at once, maybe God isn't a personal God."

Two things about this...
1. Jesus showed us how to behave towards others, and that was by becoming a servant to them, ministering to their needs. Remember how upset the disciples were when he went ahead and washed their feet? But that is want he meant for us to do... serve each other.
2. Although Jesus, the Son of God, did this for others as a way of teaching us how to behave in love towards each other, it must not be forgotten that God is the Creator and we are His creatures. The way we must see it is that we serve Him, not expect Him to serve us. Out of His love for us, He will certainly respond to our needs, but we must make sure we are in the kind of relationship where we are following the example of Jesus and serving others, putting them (and therefore God) first.

What are your thoughts about that? We are all self-centred in varying degrees... it is a part of being human. You don't have that on your own. But it is good to work on that to change it more and more. The rewards will also be great. Jesus said that if anyone loved Him, they would do what He wanted for them to do... and He has shown us what that is by putting others first, serving them, caring for them. That does not mean neglecting yourself, but I am sure you probably won't do that either.

[j316]

Okay, I know that God is SUPPOSED to be an all-knowing, all-loving, all-caring God. This is a common argument from atheists. However, it struck me last night about something is wrong with this picture. First of all, God can lift evil, yet He doesn't, He will do healings on people or miracles on random people, even for people that really don't need it. I don't want to feel like a skeptic here but to me that sounds whatever happens to that person, it is either their own self healing themselves and/or fulfilling their own prayers without knowing it but attributing it to God.

What I want to get at here is that my grandpa has been serving the Lord since he was born. He has always been deeply religious and deeply spiritual, went to church every Sunday, he did it all. He is I think either 74 or 78, I can't remember, but he is in HORRIBLE pain. He has a leg length difference, he has diabetes, his hips hurt, he can barely walk because his entire two legs are literally like bones and skin, no flesh. He has many problems. His wife of 50+ decades passed away in 2002 due to alzheimer's, and other problems (it is sad to see her when she doesn't even remember you), and she was also deeply religious and spiritual and served the Lord. I don't really enjoy open casket funerals anymore (been to my grandmas and my cousins) and cremation . So anyways, my grandpa said he wanted to die within 5 years after his wife died, now he reduced it to two. He visits us, Idaho to Oregon, about twice a month to get treatments done on him but that only lasts so long. My dad is so busy being the doctor he is, we don't have the time to go see my grandpa anymore. My dad took after what his dad (my grandpa) did. My grandpa has been living by himself since his wife's death in 2002, he has had this lady friend but I don't think he sees her anymore because he hurts too bad. Also his dog was put down because his dog got too old.

The question is, WHY does my grandpa have to suffer this bad, when he has served the Lord for as long as he has lived? It doesn't make sense. Here he is, single, no one to talk to, no animals to talk to, in EXTREME pain, has more problems, and you just get the impression of him wanting and looking forward to death. Him laid next to his corpse bride in the windy dark cemetery is his wish. I have prayed among others for him to not suffer this bad, and nothing has happened, he continually gets worse. He was seen crying on one of the visits to us, talking about death. Maybe he has been praying to die. I don't know. All I know is that I get the impression now that either God doesn't exist (yes I have seen the many evidences for His existence, but you never know, people will do what people want to see), or He doesn't care, love, and know about my grandpa. Maybe God is limited, maybe He can't serve everyone at once, maybe God isn't a personal God. Maybe He just isn't real.

Anyways, the reason why this triggered this thought was because I was looking at books on Amazon.com about this issue, and there are just the theist vs. atheist debates. It looks like the atheist has it best when it comes to the debate on evil and suffering in the world.

This is a serious issue for me, so please don't make fun of ANY of this. My cousins mother and father, which my cousin committed suicide last year, went atheist on us and the rest of my family. They practice buddhism, but they are I guess more on the atheist side now. So many people of strong faith within my outer families have just had horrible problems with them and then they die.

Please help me, this is tough for me. There are books out there about a theist vs. atheist which both are of the highest debaters, and both equal out to the same. It makes it tough to know. Because there are these extreme debaters, I could really use the help with all the debating skills you have, to be put to use.

There is probably more to say, but I can't think of it right now.

Son, you have a horrible impression of God, and one that is badly skewed toward the negative. You should take a look at where this came from. Your grandpa may be everything you said he is but apparently he chose the path he is currently on by deciding that he wanted to die. Did he ask god's blessing on that? Maybe God had another plan for him.

Also I am surprised that the psychiatrist didn't notice how much anger you are expressing. Who are you so angry with and why? If it is God He can take it and still love you but I doubt He deserves it. We generally get out of life what we give it and it is difficult to reap blessings when we sow curses.

Judah gave you some advice about emotions, you can't trust them because they are so changeable. But they ae predictable because they are only reactions to what you perceive, change your perceptions and you change your emotions.

Look for the good in life, it is such an incredible opportunity and can, problems aside, be a wonderful blessing to you and those you interact with.

[Believer]

Son, you have a horrible impression of God, and one that is badly skewed toward the negative. You should take a look at where this came from. Your grandpa may be everything you said he is but apparently he chose the path he is currently on by deciding that he wanted to die. Did he ask god's blessing on that? Maybe God had another plan for him.

Also I am surprised that the psychiatrist didn't notice how much anger you are expressing. Who are you so angry with and why? If it is God He can take it and still love you but I doubt He deserves it. We generally get out of life what we give it and it is difficult to reap blessings when we sow curses.

Judah gave you some advice about emotions, you can't trust them because they are so changeable. But they ae predictable because they are only reactions to what you perceive, change your perceptions and you change your emotions.

Look for the good in life, it is such an incredible opportunity and can, problems aside, be a wonderful blessing to you and those you interact with.

God has actually removed a lot of the anger in me, and at a rapid pace. I never would have thought it would happen so quickly. I don't know, the days ago I wrote that, I felt really bad, but I don't feel that way anymore, I haven't for days. Prayer must have taken effect. I'll see what happens when my grandpa comes again. My intrusive thoughts are actually dying off, so I'm glad for that among other things. I really can't say what changed me, all I can say though is that it was God.

[j316]

Good, I am really pleased for you. Remember that almost all of our problems are caused by us walking away from God, not He from us.

Praise Him for His love and patience.