Salvation

[Jac3510]

I am no fan of Paul Tillich, but doing some research for the DS book, I came across this quote from him that I thought was not only profoundly true but immediately reminded me of this thread:

• The God of theological theism is a being beside others and as such a part of the whole of reality. He certainly is considered its most important part, but as a part and therefore as subjected to the structure of the whole. He is supposed to be beyond the ontological elements and categories which constitute reality. But every statement subjects him to them. He is seen as a self which has a world, as an ego which is related to a thou, as a cause which is separated from its effect, as having a definite space and an endless time. He is a being, not being-itself… God appears as the invincible tyrant, the being in contrast with whom all other beings are without freedom and subjectivity. He is equated with the recent tyrants who with the help of terror try to transform everything into a mere object, a thing among things, a cog in the machine they control. He becomes the model of everything against which Existentialism revolted. This is the God Nietzsche said had to be killed because nobody can tolerate being made into a mere object of absolute knowledge and absolute control. This is the deepest root of atheism. (The Courage to Be, 184-85).

Now, it seems to me that the arguments about God "valuing" us are about just this sort of God--Tillich's "God of theological theism." This god is conceived of as really wanting us, really valuing us, really coming to us, as if we are somehow beside Him. He is a person. We are a person. And between us persons stands this relationship in which the one (God) regards the other (us) as worth something.

What I've been saying is that this conception of God is wrong from the get go. God is not a being beside of us. He is not A being. He IS Being. There is nothing "between" us and God. There is, strictly speaking, no relationship between us and God. We can rightly say that we are related to God insofar as we are absolutely dependent on Him for everything that we are and that we have; we relate to Him as effect to cause. But God is not really related to us. There is, after all, nothing "outside" of God, which is clear enough in the fact that God is infinite being. What is outside the infinite?!?

This whole argument presumes a god too small, a god too limited, a god too subjected to the rules of this creation. This god is, in fact, no god at all, but a creature, and not a creature created by God, but a creature created by the human mind. This god, like the pagan gods of old, is our pious attempt to conceive of God as He Knows Himself; but all such attempts at so conceiving Him turn out to be limitations of Who and What He Is.

Until we come to grips with the fact that God is really beyond us in every way, we will still find these emotional arguments compelling. What we must do, if we want to get a glimpse of God as He Really Is, is to recognize first what God is not; and first of all, what He is not is a creature. He is not A being. He is not a part of this world. And therefore anything that suggests or implies that He is in any way must be rejected a demeaning to His glory and honor.

[/sermon - offering plate is now being passed - feel free to donate to the kids' college fund!]

[RickD]

Jac,

I think I'm starting to understand this DS stuff. At least just a little bit.

Oh how I wish I had some kind of book...something that a layman like myself could read to help me understand. Oh woe is me! Can't anyone understand my plight?

This is deep stuff Jac. I don't know if my brain can think that deeply.

[melanie]

We are spiritual beings, made in our creators image.
Jesus said the very most important of all teachings He could pass down is Love. Love God, and Love your neighbour as yourself. Pretty emotional stuff this love thing. Emotional and the very essence by which everything was created and is sustained. Gods Love. Trying to intellectualise God, is firstly impossible and when you take out emotional/love, I think that is limiting God. God wants us to FEEL Him, listen to Him within our spirits. Not think Him. You can grapple with books written by other men with their sometimes clever words and over-intellectualised mambo-jumbo but if you don't hold first and foremost LOVE, then it is all in vain.
Yes God is bigger and more magnificent than any of us can get out head around. Nothing exists, not us, not our emotions, not the universe nor a blade of grass without His divine dominion and power. But it is all central in His love.
The Almighty is not just the Most High God sitting within His kingdom, separate and without a relationship with us. He is Rejoicing in heaven when every lost son/daughter repents and recognises their very reason for existing, to love our creator.
I don't need my children. I could have lived my life quite okay without them but through love they exist and I cherish and value them greatly. Yes God is so much more than mere humans, but to acknowledge His power and magnificence without recognising the absolute magnitude of His love first and foremost is not viewing Our Father as the loving, personable BEING that He is.
He knows each of us intimately and personally. He steers us, protects us, guides us, comforts us and loves us. Sure He really needn't bother after all He is God, but that is what makes Him the most praise-worthy, loving, holy, awe-inspiring Creator, because He does anyway. That is His nature. Pure goodness, absolute Love. The light of His love sustains everything including myself, He takes pride in His handiwork, He places upmost value in it.

[melanie]

What God values in humans is due to what He knows we will be AFTER He thus transforms us - He sees great value in what we will one day become (perfected), and that this is ALL and ONLY due to His love, grace and transformational efforts (you cannot separate these). God values in us what only HE does and transforms us to becoming. And, as Christians who are yet still humans, that transformation begins on earth. Before we are thus transformed, there is no real value in us, as we are merely corrupted, constantly sinful flesh. And once we are saved, HE lives within us. He highly values those who have His Spirit within. But as God is all-knowing, He sees our transformed selves before that happens. He see's our entire lives - both mortal and eternal - on the same page, ALL at once - and thus what God values - in His eyes - are all part of the very same package.

Paul wrote in Eph 3:18-19 that we may comprehend God's love but that it remains incomprehensible deeper than anything we can imagine still. With that, I am content when speaking on this subject topic here just brought up.

What you have are two christian view points, one Western and the other Eastern. The West, teaches basically that humanity is nothing to God and we are not needed in the scheme of things before God, he saved not because we are worthy but because of who he is to himself. The Eastern views that God for his own purpose and nature of love is why he set out to save men and women before the foundation of the world. Both have a connecting view point in this regard: God saved because of himself in the simplest form. I have left out several details between the two view points just to avoid rabbits trials. Just sticking to the topic here.

The East adds that due to Gen 1:26 - it is the image and likeness of God human beings were fashioned is why God's loves humanity and with love also hates the distortion of of this foundation due to sin. Now, in both east and west, the image and likeness does not mean an exact duplicate but rather for example, the exercise of reason and intelligence to govern what God placed Humanity in charge of. Therefore, to claim that that God does not need humanity, while true in a sense, does not mean he did not have something assigned to man to do.

To this I add:

If God failed to keep his word in this regard, then his love, justice, mercy, righteousness, word, promises, gifts, are meaningless and thus He is not God Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omniscient. There is more going on in Genesis chapter 1 through 3 than we realize. So yes, then his love saw worth and fellowship with mankind, however, in a far deeper manner than we can fully grasp. You could say, he so loved... because of who and what he is - God - and for that, those born again can be eternally grateful. Rev 4:11 KJV says it all - for thy pleasure all things were created... thus he remains true to all. He is without fault. Even with this insight, God's love is deeper still. Heaven will be grand!

The Western tradition holds humanity with contempt and self abasement due to the nature of sin's infestation. Almost, in a manner of some sort of Medieval/Renaissance era penance mind set built upon the divine right of kings and supreme justice of law model of that time and era for a salvation model.

The Eastern holds no one specific salvation model other than say, it is all a divine mystery why God saved humanity by the John 3:16 revelation. They have way too many theories, some good, some bad, out there regarding God's love. So test all things.

Now, lets reason together for a moment:

Does John 3:16 say, For God needed penal Substitutionary atonement for the world that he sent his son that whosoever believes in him has everlasting life....

Or - for God so loved the world that whosoever believes in him has everlasting life...

Of the two, which makes more sense?

Western PSA holds that it was because God loves he needed PSA to cover broken legal requirements of his law

The Eastern Christian mindset says, the cross is a great mystery revealing God's love and character so deep no one simple pat answer can fully capture the why; so Let's explore and fall in love with God more everyday because he so first loved us, 1 John 4:19 -

Both contain a sense of awe about God and are two sides of the same proverbial coin. Both engage human emotions which in turn changes thought (think about it)
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I really enjoyed this post BW
Thankyou

[Nicki]

Yes, God is love - that's what the Bible says about how integral a part of his nature love is. He doesn't need us but it was in his nature to create us, love us and save us - we have infinite worth to him. We are imperfect and unworthy of heaven but as he loves us perfectly he wants to save us.