Proof and faith

[1over137]

...Heavens Shore...

Hey b.w. I haven't heard the melody yet.

[Starhunter]

Perhaps she is, but I was asking about how she is defining faith.

Quite so, I'll step aside.

[B. W.]

...Heavens Shore...

Hey b.w. I haven't heard the melody yet.

I need a sound system to record it on...

anyone have one?
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[melanie]

How do you define faith melanie?

Hey Jac
I think what your asking me is to describe faith. Definitions of words should not be subjective although they sometimes are. Words when used in context are done so by there definitions. I know that people turn the word faith by misunderstanding into a belief in something or someone based on zero evidence. Some wishy washy inclination to 'hold onto' something with no merit. Christianity is far from that. We do have evidence, as others have stated by personal revelation, through science and the complexity of the universe, the historical evidence of the validity of the gospel and Jesus' time on earth.
As compelling as this is as it backs up the credibility of our Faith, it is not the reason for our faith. Faith in a nutshell means trust. To trust God, to trust that Jesus died on that cross and rose again for our salvation, to trust that when we leave this world we will be for eternity with our Creator is a faith a whole lot deeper than looking at the evidence and concluding that there must be a grand designer.
The evidence that brings us to trust in God with every aspect of our lives, to put aside fear, fear of death, fear of hopelessness, fear of uncertainty is faith itself. The gifts of the Holy Spirit and the fruits of the Holy Spirit are shown to us in scripture, faith is the only thing that appears on both lists. It is a gift. A gift from God. If we accept a personal revelation to bring us into truth and to turn our lives to Jesus then we have accepted the most precious gift that God has placed in our hearts. If we look into the scientific probabilities of the universe being created by random and see that it is beyond reason that it could have occurred without a creator which leads to a Christian faith, it was firstly and most importantly the gift of faith not ourselves or our great deductions of reasoning that lead us into the light of Our Lord. Faith that lives in our hearts as a gift from God far out ways any type of humanistic faith we may have. Faith based solely on our own strength falters, it ebs and flows with the hardships of life and our weakness. Like a roller coaster when life is great we are riding high but when things get tough we drop pretty quickly, any faith we may have in ourselves, in loved ones, in what we hope for can take a crumbling dive. People have mentioned about having faith/trust in our spouses as being something we hold to through love and trust. This kind of faith is not like the faith we can and should have in Our Lord. This faith falters. It is subjective to life conditions, our head space, pressures and again our weakness. Every single person has experienced jealously, questioned in the back of our minds what if, have had moments of fear of mistrust, because even though we trust in our spouses to be faithful the uncertainty of things unknown can creep in.
We never have to worry about uncertainty with God, or disloyalty. His promise to love us is secure. No matter how far we fall down that roller coaster of life, when faith in everything else falters we can stand strong and unmoved in our faith in God.
As we grow in faith, which really just means as we learn place our trust in God more and more our faith strengthens, it grows and is exhibited as a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Our measure of faith is how much we truly trust in God. Not his existence we have moved passed that, but trust that He gives us everything we need, in every aspect but most importantly spiritually. Trust that He can change us, perfect us into the 'child' that he could always foresee we could be even when we couldn't. There are aspects of personality that I had concluded where just me, I was overall a good person, but I'm not perfect and people would just have to accept that warts and all. By submitting after many years of having a smaller measure of faith completely in God, Tasting what it's like to walk in His light, and never wanting to step outside that again, I now trust God to mold me, I had to put my bucket loads of arrogance aside, and make myself malleable and willing for change. I now can overcome those aspects of myself, not every time but when I do its a triumph, it allows me to see myself as my Father sees me, it Spurs me on to keep working hard at it. I guess in a way it is kind of self serving in the repect that I have never felt so whole, so complete and so connected to God which really just means that being in the presence of Gods love is a feeling that surpasses any other and His light, lights me up.
Let His will be done not ours. Faith and trust that God is in the drivers seat and never takes a wrong turn. Listening to what God requires of me not what I require of myself. Obeying even when I would rather not. Because my faith and trust in Him knows without a doubt that He knows best.
It's not just about faith but the measure of our faith. I could never understand why Abraham placed Isaac on that alter, it was a stumbling block in my faith/trust, my immaturity in my walk wouldn't let me see. Now I know that God had made Abaraham a promise and Abraham knew through his trust that God would never break that promise. He did the unthinkable out of his absolute love and trust in God. Now that is faith. That story that once upon a time caused me to doubt not Gods existence but his motives now inspires me. I pray to have a faith like Abraham. His will be done.
It doesn't matter what life throws at us, where that roller coaster takes us. It matters not what discovery science makes that thinks its answering the questions outside of God, nothing can shake our faith because that faith is not subject to our humaness it is the living word of God living within us, faith given as a gift and a fruit of the Holy Spirit that dwells inside.
The world cannot take it away from us, because it's not the worlds. It is of Our Father.

[B. W.]

How do you define faith melanie?

Hey Jac
I think what your asking me is to describe faith. Definitions of words should not be subjective although they sometimes are. Words when used in context are done so by there definitions. I know that people turn the word faith by misunderstanding into a belief in something or someone based on zero evidence. Some wishy washy inclination to 'hold onto' something with no merit. Christianity is far from that. We do have evidence, as others have stated by personal revelation, through science and the complexity of the universe, the historical evidence of the validity of the gospel and Jesus' time on earth.
As compelling as this is as it backs up the credibility of our Faith, it is not the reason for our faith. Faith in a nutshell means trust. To trust God, to trust that Jesus died on that cross and rose again for our salvation, to trust that when we leave this world we will be for eternity with our Creator is a faith a whole lot deeper than looking at the evidence and concluding that there must be a grand designer.
The evidence that brings us to trust in God with every aspect of our lives, to put aside fear, fear of death, fear of hopelessness, fear of uncertainty is faith itself. The gifts of the Holy Spirit and the fruits of the Holy Spirit are shown to us in scripture, faith is the only thing that appears on both lists. It is a gift. A gift from God. If we accept a personal revelation to bring us into truth and to turn our lives to Jesus then we have accepted the most precious gift that God has placed in our hearts. If we look into the scientific probabilities of the universe being created by random and see that it is beyond reason that it could have occurred without a creator which leads to a Christian faith, it was firstly and most importantly the gift of faith not ourselves or our great deductions of reasoning that lead us into the light of Our Lord. Faith that lives in our hearts as a gift from God far out ways any type of humanistic faith we may have. Faith based solely on our own strength falters, it ebs and flows with the hardships of life and our weakness. Like a roller coaster when life is great we are riding high but when things get tough we drop pretty quickly, any faith we may have in ourselves, in loved ones, in what we hope for can take a crumbling dive. People have mentioned about having faith/trust in our spouses as being something we hold to through love and trust. This kind of faith is not like the faith we can and should have in Our Lord. This faith falters. It is subjective to life conditions, our head space, pressures and again our weakness. Every single person has experienced jealously, questioned in the back of our minds what if, have had moments of fear of mistrust, because even though we trust in our spouses to be faithful the uncertainty of things unknown can creep in.
We never have to worry about uncertainty with God, or disloyalty. His promise to love us is secure. No matter how far we fall down that roller coaster of life, when faith in everything else falters we can stand strong and unmoved in our faith in God.
As we grow in faith, which really just means as we learn place our trust in God more and more our faith strengthens, it grows and is exhibited as a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Our measure of faith is how much we truly trust in God. Not his existence we have moved passed that, but trust that He gives us everything we need, in every aspect but most importantly spiritually. Trust that He can change us, perfect us into the 'child' that he could always foresee we could be even when we couldn't. There are aspects of personality that I had concluded where just me, I was overall a good person, but I'm not perfect and people would just have to accept that warts and all. By submitting after many years of having a smaller measure of faith completely in God, Tasting what it's like to walk in His light, and never wanting to step outside that again, I now trust God to mold me, I had to put my bucket loads of arrogance aside, and make myself malleable and willing for change. I now can overcome those aspects of myself, not every time but when I do its a triumph, it allows me to see myself as my Father sees me, it Spurs me on to keep working hard at it. I guess in a way it is kind of self serving in the repect that I have never felt so whole, so complete and so connected to God which really just means that being in the presence of Gods love is a feeling that surpasses any other and His light, lights me up.
Let His will be done not ours. Faith and trust that God is in the drivers seat and never takes a wrong turn. Listening to what God requires of me not what I require of myself. Obeying even when I would rather not. Because my faith and trust in Him knows without a doubt that He knows best.
It's not just about faith but the measure of our faith. I could never understand why Abraham placed Isaac on that alter, it was a stumbling block in my faith/trust, my immaturity in my walk wouldn't let me see. Now I know that God had made Abaraham a promise and Abraham knew through his trust that God would never break that promise. He did the unthinkable out of his absolute love and trust in God. Now that is faith. That story that once upon a time caused me to doubt not Gods existence but his motives now inspires me. I pray to have a faith like Abraham. His will be done.
It doesn't matter what life throws at us, where that roller coaster takes us. It matters not what discovery science makes that thinks its answering the questions outside of God, nothing can shake our faith because that faith is not subject to our humaness it is the living word of God living within us, faith given as a gift and a fruit of the Holy Spirit that dwells inside.
The world cannot take it away from us, because it's not the worlds. It is of Our Father.

Now - that is faith!

Well done Melanie!


Reminds me of this:

God says - Trust me

And our mortal life is lived with him saying - Trust me - beginning in John 3:16... and us going on from there.
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[Philip]

Geisler would say - and I would agree - that it is God's drawing and wooing us, His providing us the ABILITY and UNDERSTANDING to believe (that makes faith POSSIBLE) and His making salvation POSSIBLE (through the cross), are ALL God-given. But the FAITH we must have is OUR own faith, as although HE made it possible, we are the ones that must exercise it - and so it must be OUR faith. And God makes it possible and all are ABLE to have faith IF they so desire to. But we are the ones who must believe and place OUR faith in Him. And so while belief and faith are what Jesus made POSSIBLE (but only certain as most refuse to truly believe and exercise their belief, through faith) and are certainly God-given, as our faith would be impossible without these things, WE, nonetheless, are the ones who must exercise OUR believing faith. Else you are right back to Five-Point Land: God gives faith ONLY to His precious few but denies it for the masses that will not be saved (because Calvinism says God NEVER meant for most to be saved and never even allows them the ability to believe to begin with - and that these things were decided by God and denied them, before the heathens' very births - all false and unScriptural, of course).

[melanie]

Geisler would say - and I would agree - that it is God's drawing and wooing us, His providing us the ABILITY and UNDERSTANDING to believe (that makes faith POSSIBLE) and His making salvation POSSIBLE (through the cross), are ALL God-given. But the FAITH we must have is OUR own faith, as although HE made it possible, we are the ones that must exercise it - and so it must be OUR faith. And God makes it possible and all are ABLE to have faith IF they so desire to. But we are the ones who must believe and place OUR faith in Him. And so while belief and faith are what Jesus made POSSIBLE (but only certain as most refuse to truly believe and exercise their belief, through faith) and are certainly God-given, as our faith would be impossible without these things, WE, nonetheless, are the ones who must exercise OUR believing faith. Else you are right back to Five-Point Land: God gives faith ONLY to His precious few but denies it for the masses that will not be saved (because Calvinism says God NEVER meant for most to be saved and never even allows them the ability to believe to begin with - and that these things were decided by God and denied them, before the heathens' very births - all false and unScriptural, of course).

You are right Philip.
Has someone ever given you a gift that you haven't accepted? I have. Our acceptance is our free will
We have ownership over our faith but not Lordship

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

We have ownership over our faith but not Lordship

Could you flesh this out for me? Thanks.

FL

[jlay]

Byblos gave the correct response early in the thread. Beyond that, I would say that belief in God's existence is not a matter of faith. It is a matter of reason. It is certainly true that a great many hold to God's existence by faith, but such is not necessary.Thus Thomas Aquinas says,

• The existence of God and other like truths about God, which can be known by natural reason, are not articles of faith, but are preambles to the articles; for faith presupposes natural knowledge, even as grace presupposes nature, and perfection supposes something that can be perfected. Nevertheless, there is nothing to prevent a man, who cannot grasp a proof, accepting, as a matter of faith, something which in itself is capable of being scientifically known and demonstrated.

Thus, where there is proof, there is no need for faith. Faith follows upon what is proved.

Chris, glad you brought this up as this question has worked on me. Regarding the bold, how would you explain that in light of Hebrew 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Doesn't this verse seem to indicate that basic belief in God is a matter of faith? Also, I'm curious why it appears that you almost contrast faith against reason in this explanation. I would refer to them as two sides to the same coin.

[Jac3510]

I actually had a very long discussion about this with my boss who happens to be an orthodox priest. Being eastern, he tends to object pretty heavily to the use of philosophy, and he absolutely hates "natural theology," especially as represented by Aquinas.

So, short answer: belief in God is not a matter of faith, although we can certainly hold to His existence as a matter of faith. And yet faith in Him--even in some way in His existence--is required to please Him. Here, I made and make a distinction between the the God of natural theology and the God of Scripture. I know the first exists by reason. I have strong reasons to affirm that the second is identical to the first. But I know the second by faith. In other words, what reason does, and what the arguments for God's existence do when fully understood, is point beyond itself, even beyond the "god" it posits as necessarily existing, and invites us to know this God by faith. For reason, in the end, cannot exist unless it is ultimately grounded in something else: God. But if reason is grounded in God, then God must be presumed by reason and can only be "known" as necessary in light of what reason shows us. Or, as Aquinas puts it, we know God exists as an effect by its causes. But since reason itself is an effect, reason itself cannot know God. It can show that it must be known and that by something other than itself, and in this case, what it is known by is faith. As such, our faith is not a blind faith. it is motivated by reason. In fact, to deny faith is unreasonable because of what reason has shown us. But faith itself is not reducible to reason. It is something we do--trust--because it reason encourages us to do so.

Thoughts?

[jlay]

I actually had a very long discussion about this with my boss who happens to be an orthodox priest. Being eastern, he tends to object pretty heavily to the use of philosophy, and he absolutely hates "natural theology," especially as represented by Aquinas.

So, short answer: belief in God is not a matter of faith, although we can certainly hold to His existence as a matter of faith. And yet faith in Him--even in some way in His existence--is required to please Him. Here, I made and make a distinction between the the God of natural theology and the God of Scripture. I know the first exists by reason. I have strong reasons to affirm that the second is identical to the first. But I know the second by faith. In other words, what reason does, and what the arguments for God's existence do when fully understood, is point beyond itself, even beyond the "god" it posits as necessarily existing, and invites us to know this God by faith. For reason, in the end, cannot exist unless it is ultimately grounded in something else: God. But if reason is grounded in God, then God must be presumed by reason and can only be "known" as necessary in light of what reason shows us. Or, as Aquinas puts it, we know God exists as an effect by its causes. But since reason itself is an effect, reason itself cannot know God. It can show that it must be known and that by something other than itself, and in this case, what it is known by is faith. As such, our faith is not a blind faith. it is motivated by reason. In fact, to deny faith is unreasonable because of what reason has shown us. But faith itself is not reducible to reason. It is something we do--trust--because it reason encourages us to do so.

Thoughts?

I'm glad you made the distinction from the God of natural theology and God of scipture. I've made similar arguments when speaking with atheists who wrongly assume that every argument (Kalam, Ontological, Moral, etc.) is a conclusion that (for example) a six day literal creation must be the case. There is often a disconnect in trying to help others understand that you can't trust Christ if you reject any Theistic proposition.
Flew would be a good example of someone who reasoned himself to theism, but unfortunately never came to trust Christ.