rapture

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:09 pm

Exactly when the Bible said they would, in the first century. Jesus, speaking in about 30 AD, told his disciples that they would happen within their generation. John, writing about 66 AD (not 96 AD - we can debate that later as well), wrote a prophecy concerning imminent events.

Rev. 1:1 - "...things which must shortly take place"
Rev. 1:3 - "The time is near."
Rev. 1:19 - "Write ... the things that are about to take place."
Rev. 3:10 - "... the hour of trial ... is about to come upon the whole world."
Rev. 22:10 - "The time is at hand."

If you were in one of the First Century churches in Asia, would you think that John was referring to 21st Century events?

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:21 pm

Having not been alive when that was written I don't know for sure but I think its a pretty good bet that the rapture didn't happen in 70ad that really is a strange view if you ask me and I know of very view Christians who feel that way. There is no scripture anywhere that justifies that and Matthiew 24 verse 34 can mean "race" not just generation and even a generation is now regarded as being 70 years not 40. So if the rapture did happen then it would have to be at 100ad not 70 ad. But I don't think Jesus is necessairly speaking about a definite date. But the rapture hasn't happened and if you look at the plagues that Revelation describes there is no way in the world they could have happend then. Plus there's no evidence from history to support it.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:01 am

waynes world wrote:Having not been alive when that was written I don't know for sure but I think its a pretty good bet that the rapture didn't happen in 70ad that really is a strange view if you ask me and I know of very view Christians who feel that way. There is no scripture anywhere that justifies that and Matthiew 24 verse 34 can mean "race" not just generation and even a generation is now regarded as being 70 years not 40. So if the rapture did happen then it would have to be at 100ad not 70 ad. But I don't think Jesus is necessairly speaking about a definite date. But the rapture hasn't happened and if you look at the plagues that Revelation describes there is no way in the world they could have happend then. Plus there's no evidence from history to support it.

Wayne, Are you really reading my posts, or are you just imagining that you did? I never said that the "rapture" happened in 70 AD. There is no "rapture" period. Not in 70 AD, not in 1988, not in 2000, not in 2007, or ever. We are not called to escape from planet earth, we are called to transform it. The "calling up" in 1 Thess 4:17 takes place AFTER the last days resurrection (verse 16), not before some tribulation period.

And yes, the plagues of Revelation have taken place, and there is evidence from history to support it.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:17 am

puritan lad wrote:
waynes world wrote:Having not been alive when that was written I don't know for sure but I think its a pretty good bet that the rapture didn't happen in 70ad that really is a strange view if you ask me and I know of very view Christians who feel that way. There is no scripture anywhere that justifies that and Matthiew 24 verse 34 can mean "race" not just generation and even a generation is now regarded as being 70 years not 40. So if the rapture did happen then it would have to be at 100ad not 70 ad. But I don't think Jesus is necessairly speaking about a definite date. But the rapture hasn't happened and if you look at the plagues that Revelation describes there is no way in the world they could have happend then. Plus there's no evidence from history to support it.
Wayne, Are you really reading my posts, or are you just imagining that you did? I never said that the "rapture" happened in 70 AD. There is no "rapture" period. Not in 70 AD, not in 1988, not in 2000, not in 2007, or ever. We are not called to escape from planet earth, we are called to transform it. The "calling up" in 1 Thess 4:17 takes place AFTER the last days resurrection (verse 16), not before some tribulation period.

And yes, the plagues of Revelation have taken place, and there is evidence from history to support it.

Can you show me some Documentation that all the Plagues have taken place please?

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:27 am

For starter, Read Josephus - Wars of the Jews.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/JewishWars/

This is a "full preterist" site, of which I am not, but it does have good stuff.

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 10:34 am

1 Cor 15:12 says: But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no ressurection of the dead then even Christ has not been raised. And if Christ has not been raised our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

Is Paul lying?

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:18 pm

waynes world wrote:1 Cor 15:12 says: But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no ressurection of the dead then even Christ has not been raised. And if Christ has not been raised our preaching is useless and so is your faith.

Is Paul lying?

Of course not. What does this verse have to do with a pre-trib rapture? This entire chapter is about the last days resurrection.

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 5:30 pm

I Cor 15:51-I tell you a mystery: we will not all sleep but we all will be changed-in the twinkling of an eye. For the trumpet will sound the dead will be raised impershiable and we will be changed. For the pershible must cloth itself with the impershable and the mortal with immorality. Where o death is your victory?-

Sure looks like a pre-trib rapture to me that Paul is talking about.

BavarianWheels · Post by **BavarianWheels** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 6:28 pm

waynes world wrote:I Cor 15:51-I tell you a mystery: we will not all sleep but we all will be changed-in the twinkling of an eye. For the trumpet will sound the dead will be raised impershiable and we will be changed. For the pershible must cloth itself with the impershable and the mortal with immorality. Where o death is your victory?-

Sure looks like a pre-trib rapture to me that Paul is talking about.

Unless one studies a small bit to when the trump actually sounds...
.
.

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Tue Aug 30, 2005 9:49 pm

I studied that passage from different ministers and eveyone I head said it was about a pre-trib rapture! Where's the hope of a post trib rapture?

Kurieuo · Post by **Kurieuo** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 5:56 am

Did God's people go through the plagues in Egypt, or were they raptured out? I don't care to argue about my eschatology I see some interesting parallels here.

Kurieuo.

jerickson314 · Post by **jerickson314** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 7:50 am

waynes world wrote:I studied that passage from different ministers and eveyone I head said it was about a pre-trib rapture! Where's the hope of a post trib rapture?

You are mostly staying within the system of futurism, the idea that a large portion of Bible prophesy (including part of Daniel, the Olivet Discourse, and most of Revelation) takes place in our future. Puritan lad is a preterist, who believes that much of the same prophesy has already been fulfilled, including the passages taken by futurists as a reference to the "Tribulation".

The (partial/orthodox) preterist interpretation of "rapture" passages is that they refer to the final resurrection yet to come. Thus, their fulfillment comes after the fulfillment of the "Tribulation" passages. However, a key preterist idea is that the futurist conceptions of "rapture" and "Tribulation" are either unscriptural or misleading.

I haven't really come to a conclusion for myself on eschatology, but preterism does make quite a bit of sense. You can read more on preterism at this site.

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 11:27 am

I'm not all that familiar with peterism but I have heard of it and would be interested it in especially if the belief is a pre-trib rapture and thanks for the sites. I have been looking for sites like that. I notice that the sites here seem to go with the post-trib view and I wonder why that is. Being a Babtist born and bred and now Calvary Chapel the doctrine is clearly pretrib there. I would hope its not a salvation issue one way or the other, but there is greater hope in not going through God's wrath than otherwise.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 12:29 pm

waynes world wrote:I Cor 15:51-I tell you a mystery: we will not all sleep but we all will be changed-in the twinkling of an eye. For the trumpet will sound the dead will be raised impershiable and we will be changed. For the pershible must cloth itself with the impershable and the mortal with immorality. Where o death is your victory?-

Sure looks like a pre-trib rapture to me that Paul is talking about.

Where is the tribulation Wayne?

Let's start over from scratch, one issue at a time. Let's forget about the tribulation for just one second. Do you agree that 1 Cor. 15:51 and 1 Thess 4:16 are about the resurrection of the righteous? Yes or No.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:24 pm

Hey Puritan Lad.

The only problem I have with the view especially after reading Joseph Flavius (Long read

). In any case the descriptions he gives are not exactly what Revelations talks about. In revelations it is the World View and the Destruction of the World however in those reasons it was only about Jerusalem. Am I wrong?