Is there a God?

[PaulSacramento]

I think that for the born atheist ( for lack of a better word) belief in God is a question of evidence and whether they accept the evidence.
Many simply choose not to.

As long as its clear that is a statement of your opinion, how you see things.

You cannot, of course, see things thro the eyes of a 'born atheist", nor objectively assess evidence / lack of for something to which you are already committed.

For myself, I cannot fathom how someone can "choose" to believe, or disbelieve.

Belief is not something I can turn on and off.

All we have are opinions.
Of course we can turn belief on and off, we do it all the time.
In reality belief is all about choice.
We choose to believe that the evidence presented is enough or not enough, we choose to accept what is presented as evidence or not as evidence.
We do that with pretty much all things.

[PaulSacramento]

Here is a typical example on a website that deals with people that have left the JW religion ( many of them have become atheists, very aggressive atheists):
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/frie ... ESNT-EXIST

[Audie]

I think that for the born atheist ( for lack of a better word) belief in God is a question of evidence and whether they accept the evidence.
Many simply choose not to.

As long as its clear that is a statement of your opinion, how you see things.

You cannot, of course, see things thro the eyes of a 'born atheist", nor objectively assess evidence / lack of for something to which you are already committed.

For myself, I cannot fathom how someone can "choose" to believe, or disbelieve.

Belief is not something I can turn on and off.

All we have are opinions.
Of course we can turn belief on and off, we do it all the time.
In reality belief is all about choice.
We choose to believe that the evidence presented is enough or not enough, we choose to accept what is presented as evidence or not as evidence.
We do that with pretty much all things.

Out of all that about why be moral, and being one's own god, this is all you are going to comment on? Sheesh.

As for what 'we' can or cant do, speaketh thou for thyself. I cant turn on and off what I believe. It has to be real.

[PaulSacramento]

I think that for the born atheist ( for lack of a better word) belief in God is a question of evidence and whether they accept the evidence.
Many simply choose not to.

As long as its clear that is a statement of your opinion, how you see things.

You cannot, of course, see things thro the eyes of a 'born atheist", nor objectively assess evidence / lack of for something to which you are already committed.

For myself, I cannot fathom how someone can "choose" to believe, or disbelieve.

Belief is not something I can turn on and off.

All we have are opinions.
Of course we can turn belief on and off, we do it all the time.
In reality belief is all about choice.
We choose to believe that the evidence presented is enough or not enough, we choose to accept what is presented as evidence or not as evidence.
We do that with pretty much all things.

Out of all that about why be moral, and being one's own god, this is all you are going to comment on? Sheesh.

As for what 'we' can or cant do, speaketh thou for thyself. I cant turn on and off what I believe. It has to be real.

I wasn't commenting on "why be moral" at all, that argument has been done to death and the reality of that argument is that without God morals are totally subjective, period.
Belief in God is simply a matter of accepting or not accepting the evidence in the arguments for God's existence.
It really is that simple.

[Audie]

I think that for the born atheist ( for lack of a better word) belief in God is a question of evidence and whether they accept the evidence.
Many simply choose not to.

As long as its clear that is a statement of your opinion, how you see things.

You cannot, of course, see things thro the eyes of a 'born atheist", nor objectively assess evidence / lack of for something to which you are already committed.

For myself, I cannot fathom how someone can "choose" to believe, or disbelieve.

Belief is not something I can turn on and off.

All we have are opinions.
Of course we can turn belief on and off, we do it all the time.
In reality belief is all about choice.
We choose to believe that the evidence presented is enough or not enough, we choose to accept what is presented as evidence or not as evidence.
We do that with pretty much all things.

Out of all that about why be moral, and being one's own god, this is all you are going to comment on? Sheesh.

As for what 'we' can or cant do, speaketh thou for thyself. I cant turn on and off what I believe. It has to be real.

I wasn't commenting on "why be moral" at all, that argument has been done to death and the reality of that argument is that without God morals are totally subjective, period.
Belief in God is simply a matter of accepting or not accepting the evidence in the arguments for God's existence.
It really is that simple.

Ok, you do assertions of facts not in evidence, and turn belief on and off. I dont and I dont guess we have much more to say, Sorry I wasted my time.

[Kenny]

I'm curious; when you were an atheist; was atheism as much a part of your life as Christianity is now?

Ken

Like Squbble mentioned - I bounced into agnosticism briefly and then into full fledged militant atheism that was prevalent in the late 1960's through till 1980. The only difference in the modern day atheism of the 2010 to current date era is one of terms and definitions. The philosophy is the same as is the search for evidence and twisting of evidence too. The attitude is the same as well as you have the mild atheist who live and let live and defend religious liberties, the moderate atheist who just go with the flow and cause no ruckus towards people of faith, and then you have the militant types who like to pick fights and debate people of faith, I used to be the militant type.

Like other atheist of either class type, I used to class all religions as being the same, yet, for some reason, Christianity was the one I used to hate the most, for absolutely no good reason other than it simplly posed a question to me: Trust Jesus and he will change your life for the better freely. So I thought irrationally - How dare they call me a sinner and tell me what I can do and not do! The other religions did not challenge me as these were all works based systems and each never claimed I was an amoral reprobate but made it a point that I could still do some good - like save the whales, save the fuzzy caterpillars, save the chimps, mother earth - but save humans - no - they need population control, unless they demanded I be controlled!

Christianity provoked me. Looking back, it was as if my conscience was being prodded to wake up but I kept refusing and a smoldering disdain emerged. I launched into militant atheism as a means to justify my NOT hearing God knocking on my proverbial door simply offering me a simple choice to accept or reject Him. No other system offers that choice. The others are works based as it is all about you doing this to earn favor or goodies or offered blind submission or else as Islam does. The religion of humanism and atheism offers no solace either as one must accept it or face ridicule or ostracization on societal scale. Yes, both are belief systems and hence are religions of self and human (achievement) oriented worship. The modern atheist may not like to hear that, and at one time, I did not either but atheism and its kissing cousin humanism are religions of self actualization without hope, reward, or purpose (truly all is vanity without God).

When Christ Jesus awoke me. I found reason and purpose and joy that no human mind can figure out and it aided me through overcoming trials, toils, and snares in life. I used to think humanism offered the same or the other world's religious systems and attempted to back up my thought with warped evidence. Yes, other systems only can go so far. The difference, they cannot erase emptiness nor help one walk in the light of life.

So again, Kenny:

What do you truly believe in?

Will it last?
-
-
-

BW
Like Squbble mentioned - I bounced into agnosticism briefly and then into full fledged militant atheism that was prevalent in the late 1960's through till 1980. The only difference in the modern day atheism of the 2010 to current date era is one of terms and definitions. The philosophy is the same as is the search for evidence and twisting of evidence too. The attitude is the same as well as you have the mild atheist who live and let live and defend religious liberties, the moderate atheist who just go with the flow and cause no ruckus towards people of faith, and then you have the militant types who like to pick fights and debate people of faith, I used to be the militant type.

Like other atheist of either class type, I used to class all religions as being the same, yet, for some reason, Christianity was the one I used to hate the most, for absolutely no good reason other than it simplly posed a question to me: Trust Jesus and he will change your life for the better freely. So I thought irrationally - How dare they call me a sinner and tell me what I can do and not do! The other religions did not challenge me as these were all works based systems and each never claimed I was an amoral reprobate but made it a point that I could still do some good - like save the whales, save the fuzzy caterpillars, save the chimps, mother earth - but save humans - no - they need population control, unless they demanded I be controlled!

Christianity provoked me. Looking back, it was as if my conscience was being prodded to wake up but I kept refusing and a smoldering disdain emerged. I launched into militant atheism as a means to justify my NOT hearing God knocking on my proverbial door simply offering me a simple choice to accept or reject Him. No other system offers that choice. The others are works based as it is all about you doing this to earn favor or goodies or offered blind submission or else as Islam does. The religion of humanism and atheism offers no solace either as one must accept it or face ridicule or ostracization on societal scale. Yes, both are belief systems and hence are religions of self and human (achievement) oriented worship. The modern atheist may not like to hear that, and at one time, I did not either but atheism and its kissing cousin humanism are religions of self actualization without hope, reward, or purpose (truly all is vanity without God).

When Christ Jesus awoke me. I found reason and purpose and joy that no human mind can figure out and it aided me through overcoming trials, toils, and snares in life. I used to think humanism offered the same or the other world's religious systems and attempted to back up my thought with warped evidence. Yes, other systems only can go so far. The difference, they cannot erase emptiness nor help one walk in the light of life.
Ken
When you were atheist, was atheism as much a part of your life as Christianity is now? IOW was it a religion for you the way Christianity is now?


BW
So again, Kenny:

What do you truly believe in?
Ken
What do I believe IN? What does that mean? I could list a million things that I believe are true, But I’ve got a feeling you mean something more than that. When a Theist believes in something; a Christian for example believes IN God, he means more than he believes God exists, he also believes what is said about the Christian God. But what does it mean when you ask what does an atheist believe IN? On 10/27/14 at 8:22pm I responded to Kurieuo and gave him an idea of what I believe, and how I come to these beliefs. If this answers your question; I would be curious what you think of what I posted. If it does not answer your question; please explain further.

BW
Will it last?
Ken
If you read what I posted, you will see what I believe to be true today could very well be a non-belief tomorrow. Judging from my history; the basics are usually the same but the details are constantly changing as I learn and grow.

Ken

[Kenny]

Audie wrote:
You cannot, of course, see things thro the eyes of a 'born atheist", nor objectively assess evidence / lack of for something to which you are already committed.

Nobody is born an atheist.

How do you conclude this? Do you believe babies whose undevoloped brains that are unable to formulate ideas and conclusions are capable of believing in God?

Ken

[Kenny]

I think that for the born atheist ( for lack of a better word) belief in God is a question of evidence and whether they accept the evidence.
Many simply choose not to.

As long as its clear that is a statement of your opinion, how you see things.

You cannot, of course, see things thro the eyes of a 'born atheist", nor objectively assess evidence / lack of for something to which you are already committed.

For myself, I cannot fathom how someone can "choose" to believe, or disbelieve.

Belief is not something I can turn on and off.

All we have are opinions.
Of course we can turn belief on and off, we do it all the time.
In reality belief is all about choice.
We choose to believe that the evidence presented is enough or not enough, we choose to accept what is presented as evidence or not as evidence.
We do that with pretty much all things.

How do you do this? For me belief happens after logic and reason demands it; not before. But how do you choose what you believe, and to what extent are you able to do this?
Do you think you are capable of believing what your logical mind tells you is impossible? (assuming it has nothing to do with religion)
Do you think you are capable of believing what seems unlikely?
Are you able to believe something because you find it easier or more rewarding to believe it than not to?

To what extent are you honestly able to decide what you believe, or turn your beliefs on or off as you choose?

Ken

[RickD]

Audie wrote:
You cannot, of course, see things thro the eyes of a 'born atheist", nor objectively assess evidence / lack of for something to which you are already committed.

Nobody is born an atheist.

How do you conclude this? Do you believe babies whose undevoloped brains that are unable to formulate ideas and conclusions are capable of believing in God?

Ken

Simply because no new born baby has the capacity to believe God doesn't exist. And yes Kenny, nobody is born a theist either. Again Kenny, simple logic.

[Kurieuo]

Audie wrote:
You cannot, of course, see things thro the eyes of a 'born atheist", nor objectively assess evidence / lack of for something to which you are already committed.

Nobody is born an atheist.

How do you conclude this? Do you believe babies whose undevoloped brains that are unable to formulate ideas and conclusions are capable of believing in God?

Ken

Simply because no new born baby has the capacity to believe God doesn't exist. And yes Kenny, nobody is born a theist either. Again Kenny, simple logic.

Disagree. I believe we're all born with a potentiality that is deeply Theistic.
Such intuitions are not expressed (or suppressed) until we obviously of a certain developmental capacity.

I can't prove it, but it follows from God's design of us that such would be "built in".
Furthermore, there's always been a belief in some "supreme being", "ultimate meaning" and the like whether you're talking remote tribes, or ancient civilisations.

BUT, neither can the Atheist prove that we're born as blank slates. I don't believe that is true at all.
We naturally intuit things that feed into our rationality as soon as we're capable.

[Kenny]

Audie wrote:
You cannot, of course, see things thro the eyes of a 'born atheist", nor objectively assess evidence / lack of for something to which you are already committed.

Nobody is born an atheist.

How do you conclude this? Do you believe babies whose undevoloped brains that are unable to formulate ideas and conclusions are capable of believing in God?

Ken

Simply because no new born baby has the capacity to believe God doesn't exist. And yes Kenny, nobody is born a theist either. Again Kenny, simple logic.

Okay; so you don't define Atheism as the default position; you define it as the asserted belief that God or no God's exist. That makes perfect sense why you would hold that position.

Thanx
Ken

[RickD]

Audie wrote:
You cannot, of course, see things thro the eyes of a 'born atheist", nor objectively assess evidence / lack of for something to which you are already committed.

Nobody is born an atheist.

How do you conclude this? Do you believe babies whose undevoloped brains that are unable to formulate ideas and conclusions are capable of believing in God?


Ken

Simply because no new born baby has the capacity to believe God doesn't exist. And yes Kenny, nobody is born a theist either. Again Kenny, simple logic.

Okay; so you don't define Atheism as the default position; you define it as the asserted belief that God or no God's exist. That makes perfect sense why you would hold that position.

Thanx
Ken

Of course Kenny.

Theist-someone who believes God exists.
Atheist-someone who believes God doesn't exist.

Newborn babies can't be either.

[Kenny]

Of course Kenny.

Theist-someone who believes God exists.
Atheist-someone who believes God doesn't exist.

Newborn babies can't be either.

I guess various people describe the term in various ways. Of course using that definition; a lot of people who are called "Atheist" (myself included) are not. Just because a person is a Theist doesn't mean they worship the God of Abraham; in theory a person could worship anything they choose. I believe in the Bible there were people worshiping a golden calf which is just a big chunk of metal! I would find it foolish for a person to claim something doesn't exist without an explanation of what it is they are claiming the non-existence of. I doubt very many people called atheist would actually fit into that category.

Ken

[RickD]

Of course Kenny.

Theist-someone who believes God exists.
Atheist-someone who believes God doesn't exist.

Newborn babies can't be either.

I guess various people describe the term in various ways. Of course using that definition; a lot of people who are called "Atheist" (myself included) are not. Just because a person is a Theist doesn't mean they worship the God of Abraham; in theory a person could worship anything they choose. I believe in the Bible there were people worshiping a golden calf which is just a big chunk of metal! I would find it foolish for a person to claim something doesn't exist without an explanation of what it is they are claiming the non-existence of. I doubt very many people called atheist would actually fit into that category.

Ken

Sure. For the sake of discussion here, we are talking about theism regarding God. Not God and gods, because it's a Christian forum.

[Squible]

Agnosticism is the default position, for it is not an epistemological position whereas theism and atheism are.

Agnosticism - No knowledge / I don't know / It's unknowable
Theism - Belief that God or gods exists
Atheism - (A = not) therefore not theism - Belief that God or gods do not exist

For example I am not afleaist about there being a flea in our house. I am agnostic about whether a flea is somewhere in my house, actually prior to this comment I was too because I hadn't thought about it and held no position either way. Then again the dogs were just let inside so now I have good reasons to become fleaist, since it is likely they do have at least one flea between them.

This whole default position rubbish and the definition of atheism being distorted across the internet gets weary at times...