OSAS

[Mallz]

Think about your response Mallz. Eternal life is an unmerited gift. There's no way to "gain" an unmerited gift.

Through exercising faith in Jesus we gain eternity with God.

Regardless, it was a bad response because I was playing devils advocate as I don't believe the gaining of salvation for humans to be a temporal event.

I'm currently still affirming:
No ones name is blotted out while they are alive but wait until death to face our Lord in
judgement where all our deeds are accounted for and if we had the faith to conquer death through
our proprietor Christ we will be in the Book of Life.

[RickD]

It's not logical to have eternal life, then lose it, then gain it back.

Once one has eternal life, it can't be lost. Otherwise it wouldn't be eternal.

[neo-x]

Hi Mallz, I do lean towards OSAS but I do feel there are problems with the concept, at some point it just becomes absurd. I debated before on this here and I found the reasons to fully embrace the idea, not very convincing. That being said OSAS makes sense only to a degree to me. The full consequences of it give me problems.

[neo-x]

It's not logical to have eternal life, then lose it, then gain it back.

Once one has eternal life, it can't be lost. Otherwise it wouldn't be eternal.

We don't get eternal life, we get a promise of it. If we get eternal life when we accept christ, then we should never die, not even physically. That is not eternal life at work. Eternal life means = no death. We all die.

[RickD]

It's not logical to have eternal life, then lose it, then gain it back.

Once one has eternal life, it can't be lost. Otherwise it wouldn't be eternal.

We don't get eternal life, we get a promise of it. If we get eternal life when we accept christ, then we should never die, not even physically. That is not eternal life at work. Eternal life means = no death. We all die.

Hi Neo,

John 3:16 says:
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Whoever believes in Christ, has eternal life. Jac has talked about it before, how the word "have" is in the tense which means now. I believe in Christ, I have eternal life now. Plus there's John 5:24:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Which says eternal life is at the moment of belief. It doesn't say whoever believes, has a promise of eternal life later on. We have passed from death into life.

[melanie]

God created time, He is outside it, not subject to it, like everything it is subject to Him.

Most definitely. And I agree with what you are saying Melanie. I appreciate your sound response, but I don't see it answering any of my questions

I don't believe predestination = Gods middle knowledge. God has natural, free and middle knowledge all the while we have self-determined wills.

My problem is that if OSAS is true, I see the middle knowledge being replaced by predestination. So I need a reconciliation between OSAS and predestination. But this explanation I feel would be better after I'm convinced through reason and divine revelation OSAS is true. Which of course I'm currently not.

So, there are two avenues I would like to know for me to accept OSAS, if anyone is up to it.

1) Through reason does OSAS work?
2) Through scripture is OSAS taught?

I don't believe predestination = God's middle knowledge either insomuch that while I sympathise with Luis de Molina's attempt to synchronise God's sovereignty with the free will, I don't think it's accurate or biblical to break down and categorise Gods wisdom and knowledge into 3 boxes.

Predestination is a biblical concept. It may not sit well with our inherit need for freedom, but that does not surpass our inherit need for order. God is the order of all things.
Christians hold onto this concept of freewill which is also biblical, with a strong desire for the need for freedom. The notion of predestination as treading on the toes of that freedom.
God works everything according to His purpose
Us included
One thing regardless of which stance a person adheres too that is in agreement is that God has a plan, His plan has been in effect since the dawn of time;
Plan: A scheme, program, or method worked out beforehand for the accomplishment of an objective
God has His methods to which He will always reach His objective. We just have to decide whether we want to part of His plan or outside it. Keeping in mind He already knows that choice we will make. It's impossible to reach an objective whilst leaving it to contingencies.

Our freewill is secondary to His order. We do not call God to us, we are accepting a gift that God brings to us according to His purpose. That is where our freewill lies, apart from that once we accept it, we surrender ourselves to His purpose. We have asked God to direct and steer our lives and that is exactly what He does.
When God sets out to achieve something, He does 100% of the time.
We may along the way make some poor choices that steer us off course, but if it is Gods plan, a plan that He had for us before we were born then it's impossible to end up anywhere but where God intended.
Ephesians 11:1 "In Him we were also chosen having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will."
Romans 8:29 "For those God foreknew He also predestined..."
If OSAS rested entirely on us it would be completely fallible. If it rested on our own merits we would be saved then unsaved and saved again continuously depending on the day and what life throws at us, but it's saved according to His purpose, once that purpose is set in motion there is no conclusion but exactly the one God desires.

[abelcainsbrother]

Jesus actually made it too easy for us to be saved which is why I can't understand why anybody would reject it although I understand why people think it is too easy because it does seem too easy and we feel we need to help God out when we don't as Jesus paid for our salvation and eternal life in full for those who believe in him. Remember Christianity is the only religion that teaches there is nothing you can do to save yourself while all other religions teach you can save yourself by works including Islam.

Remember if we could save our self then God wouldn't have had to send Jesus to fulfil all of the word for us and we cannot do it and it is kindof silly to try to or think we can,our salvation was paid in full because of what Jesus did and we cannot be saved without him nor can we help him save us more by doing stuff.The only thing we can do is say Thank you Jesus for everything you have done for me.

Once Jesus saves you there is nothing you can do to save yourself more all you will do is grow as a Christian but you will never be able to do anything to make yourself more saved than the first day you were saved and if you could you could brag about it and tell another Christian look at all the things I have done but you cannot do this because it is Jesus that was sent to do the things you don't do for you and only through him are you justified in God's sight because he takes up your slack for you.

Remember the gospel is good news so don't try to add anything to it and make it bad news because if you are truly saved you will never forget it and will always feel the Holy Spirit tugging at your heart and trying to lead and guide you on what you need to do.It is a constant battle to crucify your flesh to follow the Holy Spirit and nobody can gloss over their short comings and act like it doesn't count because of what you've done in the ministry or calling God's given you.

Read Ephesians chapter 2

[Philip]

We don't get eternal life, we get a promise of it. If we get eternal life when we accept Christ, then we should never die, not even physically. That is not eternal life at work. Eternal life means = no death. We all die.

Not EVEN physically? Did Jesus not die physically? What God transforms into becoming eternal BEGINS now - in our physical shells. It's just that though POSITIONALLY considered blameless for sin, our eternal life beginning in the flesh is only the very beginning of that sanctification process God takes us through before He will totally change us transform us physically and perfect us spiritually, forever. But the beginning of forever more is now, for the Christian.

Melanie is correct, in that, IF obtaining and MAINTAINING our salvation depends upon us - "roh, roh," says Scooby. But if GOD is the One behind every aspect of our salvation, excepting our role in accepting or rejecting His freely offered salvation, if God's Spirit indwells us from the moment of salvation, and as He saves us while we are STILL deep in our sins and sin nature, then it is HE who creates the opportunity, paid the price, and sustains it, ETERNALLY. This was NEVER something we could do in our own power - and we don't "kick the Holy Spirit out" from within and neither does He abandon us. Do people really believe that God saves and then abandons? Do they really think God makes a mistake by saving some and somehow it "just doesn't take?" That He could not have foreseen our future hearts and minds after "initially" saving us, to nonetheless have perfectly known we would abandon our faith in Him? NO!!! God tells us to have confidence in HIM to save us - not in US to save OR maintain our salvation - which, clearly, we are not capable of and never were. And how else could Paul speak with "joy" over his belief and being "SURE" that "HE who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ?"

People who believe that our ETERNAL salvation is dependent upon US never screwing it up, of us remaining consistent enough - wow, that's really having faith in ourselves as opposed to Christ, is it not? Boy, is that ever a source of constant anxiety, as we all know (as the devil is fond of constantly reminding us) that we are both undeserving of being saved and in constantly focusing on just how sinful we can be, he also wants to destroy or confidence, well being and peace of mind as we rest in our faith in JESUS. The devil wants us to constantly focus on our sins and to feel guilty - to the point of our questioning whether or not we will persevere to the end. And if this is so, no one could ever have true confidence, always worrying that we very well might screw things up in our last weeks on earth. If we think this is how God "guarantees" our salvation - that He somehow leaves a major component of it up to us AFTER we are saved, then we should all be filled with high anxiety and great fear, especially if we are taking an honest look in the mirror every morning. I have ZERO confidence in MYSELF of maintaining my faith. And those whispers in my ear that I just might screw it up some day - well, I know exactly where that is coming from.

[1over137]

Mallz wrote:
..why? If we can gain it back...?

Think about your response Mallz. Eternal life is an unmerited gift. There's no way to "gain" an unmerited gift.

If we cannot 'gain' it then how so that somehow we can 'for-gain' it based on God's for-knowledge?
This question came to my mind when reading your sentence.

[neo-x]

We don't get eternal life, we get a promise of it. If we get eternal life when we accept Christ, then we should never die, not even physically. That is not eternal life at work. Eternal life means = no death. We all die.

Not EVEN physically? Did Jesus not die physically? What God transforms into becoming eternal BEGINS now - in our physical shells. It's just that though POSITIONALLY considered blameless for sin, our eternal life beginning in the flesh is only the very beginning of that sanctification process God takes us through before He will totally change us transform us physically and perfect us spiritually, forever. But the beginning of forever more is now, for the Christian.

Melanie is correct, in that, IF obtaining and MAINTAINING our salvation depends upon us - "roh, roh," says Scooby. But if GOD is the One behind every aspect of our salvation, excepting our role in accepting or rejecting His freely offered salvation, if God's Spirit indwells us from the moment of salvation, and as He saves us while we are STILL deep in our sins and sin nature, then it is HE who creates the opportunity, paid the price, and sustains it, ETERNALLY. This was NEVER something we could do in our own power - and we don't "kick the Holy Spirit out" from within and neither does He abandon us. Do people really believe that God saves and then abandons? Do they really think God makes a mistake by saving some and somehow it "just doesn't take?" That He could not have foreseen our future hearts and minds after "initially" saving us, to nonetheless have perfectly known we would abandon our faith in Him? NO!!! God tells us to have confidence in HIM to save us - not in US to save OR maintain our salvation - which, clearly, we are not capable of and never were. And how else could Paul speak with "joy" over his belief and being "SURE" that "HE who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ?"

People who believe that our ETERNAL salvation is dependent upon US never screwing it up, of us remaining consistent enough - wow, that's really having faith in ourselves as opposed to Christ, is it not? Boy, is that ever a source of constant anxiety, as we all know (as the devil is fond of constantly reminding us) that we are both undeserving of being saved and in constantly focusing on just how sinful we can be, he also wants to destroy or confidence, well being and peace of mind as we rest in our faith in JESUS. The devil wants us to constantly focus on our sins and to feel guilty - to the point of our questioning whether or not we will persevere to the end. And if this is so, no one could ever have true confidence, always worrying that we very well might screw things up in our last weeks on earth. If we think this is how God "guarantees" our salvation - that He somehow leaves a major component of it up to us AFTER we are saved, then we should all be filled with high anxiety and great fear, especially if we are taking an honest look in the mirror every morning. I have ZERO confidence in MYSELF of maintaining my faith. And those whispers in my ear that I just might screw it up some day - well, I know exactly where that is coming from.

Hi Phillip, I think you misread me. I have never said salvation depends on us I am saying there are problems in OSAS when taking it to its logical consequences. Its not about what non-models says, this is about analyzing OSAS. You are addressing the non-OSAS position. I am not talking about that.

[Jac3510]

@neo,

RE: not having eternal life NOW: "Whoever believes in Me has eternal life" (Jesus; John 6:47). Jesus does not say beliers WILL have it, but that they have it NOW.

RE: never dying if one has eternal life NOW: "“I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (Jesus; John 11:25-26). Jesus acknowledges that believers die even thought believers will never die. We can debate what that means, and the obvious meaning is that the never dying comes in the resurrection; that is, the never physically dying comes with the glorified body of the believer and not in this corrupted body. However, whether you accept or reject that interpretation doesn't matter, because the fact is that Jesus Himself acknowledges that believer (who HAVE eternal life) can physically die. As such, your deduction (that having eternal life means there will be no physical death) is invalid in some way. I've suggested how that is based on this verse, but, again, reject that interpretation if you like. You still have to deal with the biblical data as we have it.

[RickD]

Neo wrote:
Hi Phillip, I think you misread me. I have never said salvation depends on us I am saying there are problems in OSAS when taking it to its logical consequences. Its not about what non-models says, this is about analyzing OSAS. You are addressing the non-OSAS position. I am not talking about that.

Care to list some of the problems you think exist with OSAS taken to its logical conclusion?

[abelcainsbrother]

Once saved always saved

I guess critics would think that it causes Christians to be lazy and not seek Jesus and just sit back and depend on grace as this might apply to Christians who have not really been saved but act like a Christian because when a person is born again they are changed to serve God and it is not anything they've done except believe and have faith in Jesus.Besides even if you think you are not lazy and don't sit back but actively strive to follow laws/rules/religious traditions you think you must do you're still not doing it and can't do it and you still require Jesus to take up your slack.

You are either under the law or grace.Read Matthew 11:28-30.If belief and faith are works then this is the only work it requires to be saved also salvation is a blood covenant and blood covenants are not broken by God.I think people who have problems with it need to read the book of Hebrews and Galatians and study them books thoroughly I mean I don't want anybody to take my opinion as truth.Read Galatians,Hebrews and James and read and study these books.

[Mallz]

Once saved always saved...

We were created to be with God. And we were written to be with God since before our existence. But we have to choose if we
want to be with Him. Angels were with Him, and walked away. Adam and Eve were with Him and walked away. People in this life
CAN know Him, and walk away. The gift of eternal life with God is always there. We can never find it and in doing so always
reject it. We can never know it and be unable to comprehend it, and gain it through innocence. We can know it, and reject it.
And in even rejecting it, it is still there. But once your mortal coil is over, your fate is sealed. You CAN walk away from
God, and come back. You CAN accept His salvation, then throw it away. The only temporal reference for salvation is in tune
with the only predestination, He knows who will desire it, and keep it. And in tune with His justice He places each human
creation in time and geography to best let them come to Him. To recognize it, to embrace it, to love it.

God never takes back what is ours to accept. But we can turn our back on God. We can throw away His gift. But His gift is ever
there. Waiting for you to accept it. In the life of a man, he can be saved at any time in his life, through acceptance (faith
in Christ). Discipleship occurs in this life when man accepts his salvation. But if man never accepts salvation, discipleship
will never occur. It doesn't matter at what time man has faith in Christ. For salvation is ever waiting, in our mortal realm.
There is no definite guarantee to generalize on humanity. Only God has that, and knows who has it. Who have it through El-
Shaddai. Through the Christ, through the Father, through the Holy Spirits guidance.

This is why I can't agree with the term 'once saved always saved'. It comes across arrogant. It's exclusive; elitist. And
wrong at face value. How can we claim to know the salvation of another man? To presume our intellects can claim no one
could possibly walk away from God after knowing Him. God IS unknowable. Only He knows all of our hearts. And the hearts of
angels rejected Him to His face. The hearts of our mother and father rejected Him. The hearts of our ancestors slew Him. Our hearts
constantly persecute Him.

But our hearts are deceptive. Our flesh is sewn in sin. Romans 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

The crazy thing is, is I agree with most of what all of you are saying. But I think the truth is beyond OSAS. I believe OSAS has to do with the predestination only God knows. And I already explained previously what I believe that predestination to be. But it doesn't end there.

Anyways, this is how I feel.

[neo-x]

Neo wrote:
Hi Phillip, I think you misread me. I have never said salvation depends on us I am saying there are problems in OSAS when taking it to its logical consequences. Its not about what non-models says, this is about analyzing OSAS. You are addressing the non-OSAS position. I am not talking about that.

Care to list some of the problems you think exist with OSAS taken to its logical conclusion?

No. We have had that before but it comes to no avail. I have listed those in previous threads. My only intervention in this thread was for Mallz, just wanted to let him know that I see what he is saying.