Shroud of Turin

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I'm up to page 30 of this topic. So far, the only sensible and honest atheist seems to be Pierson5 (pages 20+)...Ivellious disappeared from the discussion and jomc20's brain was stillborn(page 29).

Bippy is right when he says that the Shroud is Kryptonite to atheists.

FL

[Philip]

Bippy is right when he says that the Shroud is Kryptonite to atheists.

FL, I'm guessing you are as shocked as I was to find out the incredible aspects and level of expert analysis surrounding the Shroud. And what I've found is that few Christians are much aware of it - least not much more than the occasional newspaper article that typically quotes skeptics parroting the same old debunked comments.

I do have some great curiosity about it, however. I'm wondering who first acquired it from the burial site - surely it must have been someone from the inner circle, and likely one of those mentioned in the post-Resurrection accounts. So amazing that it was preserved all of those years, survived several fires, and then no one really new of its astonishing attributes until first photographed by Secondo Pia. Just imagine his astonishment to see this face, as an almost ghost-like apparition stared back up at him, as he and two others were the first ones to see it in 1,900 years - as it suddenly appeared in Pia's developing chemicals. He is said to have recalled that he almost dropped and broke the photographic plate in the darkroom from the shock of what appeared on it, as the reverse plate showed the image of a man's face that otherwise couldn't be seen by the naked eye. Before that, I'm guessing Pia thought he was just photographing one more "Catholic relic."

[abelcainsbrother]

Very interesting discussion on the Shroud.I've always accepted it as the burial clothe of Jesus but I've got to be honest I have not thoroughly researched the shroud,from an all sides point of view,still I've looked at it as just more evidence the bible is the true inspired word of God.I expect critics to doubt it and try to explain it away.

Abel, almost no one cared much about shroud research until 1898 when an amateur photographer took a photograph and a positive image turned up instead of a negative one on his glass plate . This is when experts in all fields started to converge on it.
A great place to start is Russ Breault's shroud university . It's stacked with great shroud research

http://www.shrouduniversity.com

Thanks and after going through Shroud University I don't see how critics can deny it.The only reason it can't be proven scientifically is because Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of God the father until he returns,so there is no way to match up the DNA yet.

[bippy123]

I'm up to page 30 of this topic. So far, the only sensible and honest atheist seems to be Pierson5 (pages 20+)...Ivellious disappeared from the discussion and jomc20's brain was stillborn(page 29).

Bippy is right when he says that the Shroud is Kryptonite to atheists.

FL

Yes FL , Pierson was more honest and open then the other atheists especially when it came to the 1988 c 14th tests and ray Rogers work.
Is there atheists will not look any deeper then a few atheist blog sites to get their information and then for some reason are shocked when all this scientific and historical info is thrown at them. It's Almost like a deer caught in the headlights.the thing about most atheists FL is that the claim to want some of what they call tangible evidence and when they find out about the shroud they will spend hours trying to keep the conversation to the one point that causes them to feel insecurity the most and it's the image itself.

An image that 21st century science can't replicate it .
What I know about the shroud is nothing Compared to what Stephen Jones knows.
He's been researching it for many years

The closest anyone came to replicating it was doctor August accetta, who had to use nuclear radiation and gamma rays to do it. He actually ingested potentially harmful radioactive material into his body . The result was he produced many of the features of the image but couldn't produce a face image or the detail of the shroud image . Doctor accetta was a believer until his late twenties when he started to believe that religion was a crutch for the elderly to help them feel more at ease with death.

After his research he knew that no ordinary process or forging could create this image and he started to read his bible again and he converted back to the Christian faith of his younger years . It's funny how radiated light came closest to replicating that image .

Even ray Rogers who stayed an agnostic was fascinated by the shroud and even commented to barrie Schwartz after his chemical analysis that invalidated the 1988 c 14th tests that when he split one of the sample fibers from the shroud asked in a jokingly manner if God would be mad at him or not.

[bippy123]

Bippy is right when he says that the Shroud is Kryptonite to atheists.

FL, I'm guessing you are as shocked as I was to find out the incredible aspects and level of expert analysis surrounding the Shroud. And what I've found is that few Christians are much aware of it - least not much more than the occasional newspaper article that typically quotes skeptics parroting the same old debunked comments.

I do have some great curiosity about it, however. I'm wondering who first acquired it from the burial site - surely it must have been someone from the inner circle, and likely one of those mentioned in the post-Resurrection accounts. So amazing that it was preserved all of those years, survived several fires, and then no one really new of its astonishing attributes until first photographed by Secondo Pia. Just imagine his astonishment to see this face, as an almost ghost-like apparition stared back up at him, as he and two others were the first ones to see it in 1,900 years - as it suddenly appeared in Pia's developing chemicals. He is said to have recalled that he almost dropped and broke the photographic plate in the darkroom from the shock of what appeared on it, as the reverse plate showed the image of a man's face that otherwise couldn't be seen by the naked eye. Before that, I'm guessing Pia thought he was just photographing one more "Catholic relic."

Philip yea I've been wondering about who acquired it first from the burial site . I have to believe it was one of the 12 apostles , either Peter or John as they were the first 2 to get there I believe .

People often asked why they didn't mention taking the shroud out to save with them and Barrie Schwortz who knew Jewish burial customs pretty well (being an Orthodox Jew ) knew that they had many reasons for not mentioning that they had taken it in scrioture .

it' was a grave offense to take any burial cloth with blood on it out if the tomb . This was punishable by death.
Plus for the first 300 years the Romans were destroying any and all Christian relics they could get their hands on.
If they had found out aboit the shroud it would have been destroyed on the spot .

Barrie even talks aboit it in a YouTube video link I gave a few pages back .ill try to find it again.

It has to be one if the apostles , but the fun part is who did the apostles pass it onto next ? If you believe the legend of king agbar it was probably given by the apostles to a follower of Christ outside the main 12 then taken to edessa to the king who then converted to Christainity . But the next one after him who was a relative was a Christian who reverted back to paganism and that is when the shroud disappeared until the great flood of edessa dislodged it from within the castle walls.

I wonder if the apostles knew how that is he got on there . As arsenio hall said ""things that make ya go hmmm ""

[bippy123]

Very interesting discussion on the Shroud.I've always accepted it as the burial clothe of Jesus but I've got to be honest I have not thoroughly researched the shroud,from an all sides point of view,still I've looked at it as just more evidence the bible is the true inspired word of God.I expect critics to doubt it and try to explain it away.

Abel, almost no one cared much about shroud research until 1898 when an amateur photographer took a photograph and a positive image turned up instead of a negative one on his glass plate . This is when experts in all fields started to converge on it.
A great place to start is Russ Breault's shroud university . It's stacked with great shroud research

http://www.shrouduniversity.com

Thanks and after going through Shroud University I don't see how critics can deny it.The only reason it can't be proven scientifically is because Jesus is in heaven at the right hand of God the father until he returns,so there is no way to match up the DNA yet.

Not just that abel, but how do u scientifically prove a resurrection
That will never be done.
Investigating the shroud is almost like a Sherlock Holmes mystery
And like sir Arthur Canon Doyle said
""Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.""

Russ breault is one of the best , especially in shroud history .

If you really want to dig deep into detail Stephen Jones has some incredible posts on the shroud and he really digs deep into the detail . It's amazing the tireless work he puts into his research .
He is an evangelical Christian who came to be persuaded from the evidence and his research of the shroud's authenticity.

I mean I look at the xray info alone that's encoded into the image and I'm thinking to myself "" hey where can I get an xray taken in first century Jerusalem and I wonder what this guy charges fir an xray since he practically has the only one on earth . Opps that wasn't invented until the 20th century.

I remember an atheist that debated me on email a while back . After I presented him with the evidence he said that it proves nothing . For all we know some guy from the 25th century took a time machine back to first century jerusalem and for the heck of it created this image as a practical joke. In this way of thinking a person can deny anything lol.

Yea Philip about Pia, little did he know that this one photograph would spark such an immense interest from people in so many technical fields. As Barrie Schwortz said how can you have a photographic negative at least 500 Years before photography was invented , but many skeptics didn't believe pia . They thought he doctored the photos up himself . It wasn't till more then 30 years later when Enrie took more photographs that the scientific community accosted that the image on the shroud was a sort of negative .

[bippy123]

Ok guys here is the video presentation link again by Barrie Schwortz
He talks about why there is no mention of anyone taking the shroud from the tomb
I would start between minutes 52.30 to 54.30 . Remember that Barrie in this video is talking to an evangelical Christain audience as well.

http://youtu.be/N0N9cMUQrZI

I know most if you have seen this video
But I would really recommend this video to Abel and FL , and remember that Schwortz believes in the authenticity of the shroud with absolutely no doubt because of his many years if research even though he is an orthodox Jew . This so significant .

Another video I would recommend is the presentation by a doctor that is in daily email contact with the sturp science team, the only scientific team put together that was given permission to study the shroud first hand .

http://youtu.be/FcKTkjWkqEU

The most fascinating aspect of this video in my opinion are the blood clots .
Remember they are anatomically perfect , unsmeared and unbroken .
When you wrap a bloodied body with a burial shroud it firms a light bond with the body . Once This happens , if grave robbers steal the body off the burial shroud what happens to the blood clots ? Well they eithere smear if they haven't fully dried or if they have dried they are broken . Also if the man of the shroud just suddenly gets up and walks off the shroud the blood clots will also be eithere smeared or broken . There is no evidence of smearing or the breaking if any of the blood clots , which means that the man of the shroud got off that shroud in an unnatural way .

It was as if the shroud's body became transparent and passed through the shroud and that's what physicist John Jackson talks about in his cloth collapse theory. Jackson also predicted that as a result Of his theory that there should be a second more feint image on the back side of the shroud, but there was a backstitching out there by nuns that has been on it since the 16th century probably after the fire that almost destroyed it back then.

In 2002 the Vatican did a restoration on the shroud and they finally allowed the backstitching to web taken and they found a second more feint image of the shroud there just as Jackson predicted in his late 1970's theory.
http://youtu.be/FcKTkjWkqEU

The video also talks aboiput the rare limestone found on the shroud that can only be found in the tombs of jerusalem.

Lots of good stuff in both these videos

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

FL, I'm guessing you are as shocked as I was to find out the incredible aspects and level of expert analysis surrounding the Shroud. And what I've found is that few Christians are much aware of it - least not much more than the occasional newspaper article that typically quotes skeptics parroting the same old debunked comments.

Your guess is correct. I was a total ignoramus about the Shroud before reading this thread. I knew only what the secular media chose to report on it. Shame on me! I wish I could take back all the stupid things I said about the Shroud.

FL

[Kurieuo]

FL, I'm guessing you are as shocked as I was to find out the incredible aspects and level of expert analysis surrounding the Shroud. And what I've found is that few Christians are much aware of it - least not much more than the occasional newspaper article that typically quotes skeptics parroting the same old debunked comments.

Your guess is correct. I was a total ignoramus about the Shroud before reading this thread. I knew only what the secular media chose to report on it. Shame on me! I wish I could take back all the stupid things I said about the Shroud.

FL

It's alright.
You say lots of stupid things.

[Byblos]

FL, I'm guessing you are as shocked as I was to find out the incredible aspects and level of expert analysis surrounding the Shroud. And what I've found is that few Christians are much aware of it - least not much more than the occasional newspaper article that typically quotes skeptics parroting the same old debunked comments.

Your guess is correct. I was a total ignoramus about the Shroud before reading this thread. I knew only what the secular media chose to report on it. Shame on me! I wish I could take back all the stupid things I said about the Shroud.

FL

You just did.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

You say lots of stupid things.

I would like to lodge a formal complaint against this mean Australian. I've spent all morning crying because of his rude comment. I don't know if I'll be well enough to eat my supper. I may have to take to strong drink to dull my pain.

FL

[1over137]

You say lots of stupid things.

I would like to lodge a formal complaint against this mean Australian. I've spent all morning crying because of his rude comment. I don't know if I'll be well enough to eat my supper. I may have to take to strong drink to dull my pain.

FL

Please, express yourself in minichat.
Would be pitty to derail this nice thread of Bippy.

[bippy123]

You say lots of stupid things.

I would like to lodge a formal complaint against this mean Australian. I've spent all morning crying because of his rude comment. I don't know if I'll be well enough to eat my supper. I may have to take to strong drink to dull my pain.

FL

FL, I'm very sorry , u didn't deserve that.
It's gonna be an amazing day when we are all in GOD'S KINGDOM
Me and drds discuss so often , and that is what gets me most excited to think about.
I just hope dolly Parton will be there ,oops

[Philip]

Bip wrote: "The most fascinating aspect of this video in my opinion are the blood clots .
Remember they are anatomically perfect , unsmeared and unbroken . When you wrap a bloodied body with a burial shroud it firms a light bond with the body . Once This happens , if grave robbers steal the body off the burial shroud what happens to the blood clots ? Well they either smear if they haven't fully dried or if they have dried they are broken . Also if the man of the shroud just suddenly gets up and walks off the shroud the blood clots will also be either smeared or broken . There is no evidence of smearing or the breaking if any of the blood clots , which means that the man of the shroud got off that shroud in an unnatural way ."

Bip, I'm so glad you emphasized these points about the unbroken, unsmeared contact points of the blood. This also well debunks any notion that a corpse was somehow wrapped and unwrapped to produce the Shroud. It also eliminates all possibility that ANY paint-like substances or liquid processes could have been used to create it, as they would have produced broken apart or smeared evidence as well. Really, if this had been a mere artist's clever fake from the medieval period, then it would have been instantly exposed as such. And let's not forget, this STURP team isn't just a bunch of Sunday School teachers eager to validate their much-believed-in relic, these are scientists of renowned expertise in their respective fields: The team has included a nuclear physicist, thermal chemists from Los Alamos National Laboratory, one from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, a biophysicist, an optical physicist, electric power experts, and a forensic pathologist. These guys are no dummies. And they weren't all Christians, either - several for which disproving the Shroud would have been more than satisfying. Not to mention their reputations were on the line. Not one would have wanted to risk their professional credibility by validating and obvious or highly dubious, FAKED artifact.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Please, express yourself in minichat.Would be pitty to derail this nice thread of Bippy.

Yes, you are right, Doctor. I won't do it again as long as that Australian tea drinker keeps the peace.

I'm at page 38 of this topic. I have to commend Bippy for being very patient with that Tetelesti guy, the one with the Israeli flag avatar.

FL