If Jesus was God, why wasn't He more obvious?

[MBPrata]

This question still bothers some serious believers-wanna-be, atheists, agnostics and who knows who else...

Simply put: according to the Bible, Jesus was, let's say, God in a human form. He came to the earth to save us, right? But here's the thing: if He wanted people to believe He was God - and I'm also talking about future generations, here - why wasn't He more obvious?

Now, it's already pretty debatable that God sent Jesus in a human form, making Him be born and grow up like some regular human. If He had appeared from the sky in a harsh light, it would be easier for people to think there was something miraculous.
But whatever; Jesus was "born" and came to an age in which He started preaching to people and showing them His power. The problem is...even though His miracles were quite impressive (walking on water? Ressurecting? Wow!), they could have been so much more evident!

Like...I can see two options here. Option 1: Jesus could make some really unbelievable action such as, I don't know, making two mountains levitate and change their places! Why not? He had enough power for that, right? And defying gravity would be so much more convincing! And the mountain thing would also have an advantage: it would be possible to check today. Scientists could perfectly go to those mountains and confirm they seemed to have been lifted by an extraordinary force and switched! Why not? That would also "prove" that happening for future generations!

But let's assume, for a while, that you'll answer: "Jesus couldn't have done that because it would mess with the balance of the Earth. Which took a lot of time to be able to habitate." Ok, then Option 2: why didn't He just fly? Flying is something pretty miraculous, if you ask me! He could go really high in the sky, make some loops, go up and down for hours to prove it wasn't some magic trick! Why not? That way, He wouldn't mess with the Earth. What's the worst thing that could happen, moving some air particles? Smashing a bird? Big deal; He would make something even more (notice I said "even more") extraordinary and make it easier to believe He had powers from God. You may ask "Why that particular miracle?", but the answer is likely to be "Why not?"

Any ideas on this issue?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Any ideas on this issue?

Yeah. Whatever God does to prove his existence will be of no consequence to unbelievers. God could send ten plagues on Egypt, split the waters of the sea to let the Israelites pass through, rain down sustenance from the sky to feed a people on a 40-year journey, make sure their sandals never wore out on that journey, stop the flow of the Jordan river to let his people cross over into Israel, have the walls of Jericho fall without any reason, impress upon some guy called Isaiah the words describing Cyrus and the coming Messiah, feed thousands with food scraps several times, raise a few guys from death, impress many with teachings, rise from the dead after his own execution...

Walking on water? that's nothing! ...whatever...in the end, the scum that we humans are will always find some way to say that it wasn't true. So, as for Jesus flying through the air and transplanting mountains here and there as you suggested, you wouldn't have believed those tricks anyway.

The problem is with you, not with what Jesus did to prove who he is.

FL

[Kurieuo]

This question still bothers some serious believers-wanna-be, atheists, agnostics and who knows who else...

Simply put: according to the Bible, Jesus was, let's say, God in a human form. He came to the earth to save us, right? But here's the thing: if He wanted people to believe He was God - and I'm also talking about future generations, here - why wasn't He more obvious?

Hi Mig,

I'm not really sure that God cares about us believing He is God. Jesus didn't either.
Rather it's just expected that such is obvious. Obvious you say? It's not obvious to you.
Ask any Christian here whether God is obvious to them. You'll receive a response contrary to your belief that God isn't obvious.
Consider the words in John Newton's Amazing Grace song, "I once was lost, but now I'm found; was blind, but now I see."

Scripture is quite clear that we turn away from God and bury any knowledge of God.
Just take a read of Romans 1:18-23 and you'll see this. There is no one who seeks after God. (Romans 3:11)

In fact, God appears to let us have our way allowing us to freely live our life without His imposing presence -- even the worst of us.
If that is true, then we shouldn't be surprised that many do not see God.

And we equally shouldn't be surprised that God doesn't go out of his way to make himself evident to us.
It's kind of a matter of sovereign respect. Why should the creator come down and make Himself known to us in the ways we desire?
And yet, it is nonetheless interesting that God did in Christ come down to us to make a way for love to be made complete despite our imperfections.

There is no requirement for God to make himself evident to us. But, by grace God might.
The important point I think is that a person seeks after God. There appears to be a threshold as I see it.
That is, to the extent one ignored and tried to bury God, now they must more-so seek and try to find God.
God isn't just going to reveal Himself in an instant to someone. He wants to know they really do want Him.

As for what causes a turning point in someone to seek after God, when apparently no one does...
Well, I believe there's an element of grace God extends towards us all in constantly try to draw us in.
But, God doesn't want to force Himself on us. When God does eventually reveal Himself to us though, a lot just seems to become more evident and clear.

[Silvertusk]

MBPrata. What you are describing in your options is exactly how satan tempted Jesus. He asked him to show them that sort of power you are describing so that they would all bow down in fear. That was not Jesus's mission and so he rebuked satan for that reason. Besides God showed the Israelites so much power but that did not make them love any more or believe him. See most of the Old Testament for evidence of that.

[Philip]

Mrata, my advice is, If you want to know The Truth, then ASK Him! IF you sincerely want to know the Truth that is Jesus, go to Him and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. And if you truly want to know, He'll open your eyes to His being a reality. Just don't expect an immediate, miraculous answer, as He responds and reveals Himself differently with different people - SOMETIMES miraculously, more often not, but in various ways and over time that are unmistakeable. To NOT do this, if but for an experiment that no one else will ever know about, tells me you really don't want to know the truth of the matter.

Don't get me wrong, there is a TON of evidence for God's existence, that the Bible is credible, and that it points to God taking on flesh, through Jesus. But one not sincerely seeking will never find Him. And WE can not dictate the terms of what we expect God to do, or when (in revealing Himself), as if He is some performing monkey. You must humble yourself and sincerely seek. Will you???!!! I pray you will.

[PaulSacramento]

A few things:
First off, if the bible shows anything it shows that miracles do NOT mean much to unbelievers.
Case in point the 10 plagues, the Red ( reed) sea, Resurrection, etc...

Second:
God is not in the business of proving Himself to ANYONE other than those He chooses to ( we forget that sometimes).
It MAY not sound "fair", but who told you life was fair?

Third:
What we must always remember is this, that Christianity is a religion of choice and what I mean by that is this:
Judaisim is a religion of Obedience, there are Laws ( 612 of them) and rules that a Jew is to follow and in doing that, He/She may be favoured in the eyes of God ( Yes I am over simplifying things but bare with me).
Islam is a religion of submission and muslims MUST submit to the will of Allah ( when they pray 5 times a day they do so in a very subjugated way- kneeling, face down...)
Christianity is a religion of choice, a Christian chooses to believe and put His faith in Christ.

Let that sink in...

Christ was as obvious as He NEEDED to be to give us an understanding of HOW God is and what God wants and when we look at Christ, what do we see?
Do we see a God that subjugates humans? that comes crashing into our world like a "gang buster"? a God that commands obedience without thought or question? A God that takes choice out of our hands and rules over us?
No, we do NOT see that at all.

We see a God that gives up ALL so that He can be one of US, to live and suffer and laugh and cry and love and die like us, WITH US.

[B. W.]

My advice is, ASK Him! IF you sincerely want to know the Truth that is Jesus, go to Him and ask Him to reveal Himself to you. And if you truly want to know, He'll open your eyes to His being a reality. Just don't expect an immediate, miraculous answer, as He responds and reveals Himself differently with different people - SOMETIMES miraculously, more often not, but in various ways and over time that are unmistakeable. To NOT do this, if but for an experiment that no one else will ever know about, tells me you really don't want to know the truth of the matter.

Don't get me wrong, there is a TON of evidence for God's existence, that the Bible is credible, and that it points to God taking on flesh, through Jesus. But one not sincerely seeking will never find Him. And WE can not dictate the terms of what we expect God to do, or when (in revealing Himself), as if He is some performing monkey. You must humble yourself and sincerely seek. Will you???!!! I pray you will.

Depends how the Lord wants you to personally respond, MBprata, and go from there.

With me, I might be a little bit Holy Spirit snarky for effect such as...

God's miracle of creation is all around us. You deny that, don't you?

Why should God dance to your tune - you think you are that important?

(Or quote them FL's response next then Phillips and PaulS)

Such folks have made up his or her own minds and it does not matter if God appeared to them and tapped danced upon the top of their scalp, they would deny his existence.

Another thing to try on a less confrontational approach is your own personal testimony. They'll mock it of course but living your life as a changed by God believer in Jesus will do more wonders to convince them than many words. Look for their weaknesses, pray that the Lord grants you an empowerment of the Holy Spirit to answer them with the Gifts of wisdom, knowledge, wisdom, faith, and languages that move God to remove the remove mountain of doubt in their lives...

With militant atheist, plant gospel seeds in them and walk away, let them see you live your life as a christian - changed and according to light. Let the Lord work on them as He so wills. One plants, another waters, and the Lord gives the increase as his timing is perfect.

have a blessed day!
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[MBPrata]

So, as for Jesus flying through the air and transplanting mountains here and there as you suggested, you wouldn't have believed those tricks anyway.

Slow down; I wasn't talking about me, remember? I was talking about those who were around Him at that time.
Besides, if He did these thing in front of me, I WOULD have believed.

in the end, the scum that we humans are will always find some way to say that it wasn't true.

If they actually believe it isn't true, what's so wrong about it? They're using their faith. And I assume you know the huge role that faith plays in a person's life...

[MBPrata]

God is not in the business of proving Himself to ANYONE other than those He chooses to ( we forget that sometimes).

Wow, that hurts...I would expect some more "attention" if the price of losing this game called life was that little thing called "hell". That's a gigantic price to pay, so one would expect more "attention", I guess...

It MAY not sound "fair", but who told you life was fair?

Nobody, and I don't think it is. However, this is something that always bothered me and some of "my people". Mr. Deem himself, as far as I remember, wrote once that God is not fair (here: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... d.html#n01). That was one of the most shocking things I've ever read on religion. I mean...most people I know look for God in a search for justice. Then, the Christians - aka the people who must know more about the God of the Bible - say that God is not fair. And that's, like, devastating!
For one thing: if God is not fair, why would people dedicate themselves to Him? Like...let's suppose there's a person who is not sure whether he/she believes in God. He/she sees these two cenarios: either he was created by unconscious, unfair laws...or by a conscious, unfair mind. Either way, he/she would always be in the hands of injustice. It's a no-win situation! Ok, not literally...it's only a no-win situation if you think from the perspective of justice. From the perspective of the afterlife, that's a whole new story. Naturally, some people think that the afterlife is much more important than justice, while some others think the afterlife is not worth it if we don't obtain the justice we lack on our universe. The later will hardly have any reason to dedicate himself/herself to God, since the two scenarios I described sooner end up equally: we, humans, were nothing before we were born, we were brought here without being consulted (I know, if you're not alive you can't be consulted, but this - apparent - paradox doesn't make the statement less true) and will never have the power to make real justice, whatsoever.
So, in both scenarios, we've got no justice and pretty similar results (yes, pretty. Not totally). And when it comes to choose between living in injustice and having pleasure and living in injustice and having less pleasure due to the fear of sin, what would be the logic choice?

Ever thought about this?

And this issue is still far from over...

Best wishes.

[1over137]

Here is full paragraph on what Mr. Deem wrote

The first assumption - that the Christian God is fair - is false! Wait a minute - a Christian admitting that the Christian God is unfair! Yes, you can quote me on it as long as you quote the rest of this paragraph. God created human beings with conscience that 1) tells them when they do wrong and 2) tells them that God exists. When we violate our conscience (something that all human beings have done), we know that we have sinned. Those of you who have never sinned can stop reading now and click here. Christianity says that all have sinned1 and, therefore, fall under the judgment of God.2 In order to be fair, God must judge all sin.3 Therefore, in order to be fair, God should condemn all people to hell.4 However, the Christian God is not fair, since He chooses to save those who accept His mercy.5 Those who want to experience the fairness of God will receive just that - God will judge them fairly.

For the rest of us, who prefer mercy to fairness, God will save us, whether we be Hindus, Buddhists or whatever.6 Those who haven't heard the gospel will be judged on the basis of the information they were given and how they responded to it.7 It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out whether or not you are doing what your conscience tells you to do.

[Kurieuo]

I'm personally hoping things are unfair.
If they're not, than all of us will be damned in the sight of a fully righteous God. Since we're all guilty of something.

So, if I see a cure presents itself to our predicament, then I'm not going to cry foul because others reject it.
Specifically, if others don't want Jesus to intercede on their behalf eternally, then they can place their hope in something else or just close their eyes.

That's their choice, not mine and not God's.

[Starhunter]

God is not in the business of proving Himself to ANYONE other than those He chooses to ( we forget that sometimes).

Wow, that hurts...I would expect some more "attention" if the price of losing this game called life was that little thing called "hell". That's a gigantic price to pay, so one would expect more "attention", I guess...

I hate exclusivity as well. I do not believe in this 'chosen people' thing either. The only reason anyone might be chosen is to be a servant to God for the world, not a blessed couch potato. St Paul was beaten from town to town, hardly the smiling stiffs we see in church.

The questions you asked are typical of many, and not necessarily all unbelief either, people want to be able to connect to God.

The trouble is with a tremendous miracle, it fades in the memory, and it is sometimes classified as a delusion or hallucination at the time, especially if no one believes you. People are funny, they get used to stuff, they don't even think about it.
When the first Jumbo Jet flew over, most people ran out doors. Now its hardly wonderful.

There must be a closer way of connecting to God, other than by sight, so to speak, a connection which will not fade in time or location.

[Nicki]

Yep, as the quote says, God is unfair in that he chooses to forgive those who accept his mercy, instead of leaving us to the fair consequence of our disobedience to him.

My feeling about the miracles is firstly that many, many people did believe Jesus was God, hence Christianity's status as still one of the world's major 'religions'. I think also that such overt miracle-working would have attracted a kind of attention Jesus didn't want - after all he often told people not to tell anyone else he'd healed them miraculously. His healings were (at the time at least) primarily to bless those individual people. He did. however, tell his disciples to go and tell the world about him - after he'd died and been raised to life.

Finally, I read something recently somewhere (maybe on this forum, not sure) about how Jesus was not using his own supernatural power when he was living on earth but was allowing God to work through him. Maybe that doesn't help much as it leads to the question of why God wouldn't have let Jesus fly around, but I think it gives some perspective and explains why Jesus said his followers would do even greater miracles than he did - we can allow God to work through us as well.

[PaulSacramento]

God is not in the business of proving Himself to ANYONE other than those He chooses to ( we forget that sometimes).

Wow, that hurts...I would expect some more "attention" if the price of losing this game called life was that little thing called "hell". That's a gigantic price to pay, so one would expect more "attention", I guess...

It MAY not sound "fair", but who told you life was fair?

Nobody, and I don't think it is. However, this is something that always bothered me and some of "my people". Mr. Deem himself, as far as I remember, wrote once that God is not fair (here: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... d.html#n01). That was one of the most shocking things I've ever read on religion. I mean...most people I know look for God in a search for justice. Then, the Christians - aka the people who must know more about the God of the Bible - say that God is not fair. And that's, like, devastating!
For one thing: if God is not fair, why would people dedicate themselves to Him? Like...let's suppose there's a person who is not sure whether he/she believes in God. He/she sees these two cenarios: either he was created by unconscious, unfair laws...or by a conscious, unfair mind. Either way, he/she would always be in the hands of injustice. It's a no-win situation! Ok, not literally...it's only a no-win situation if you think from the perspective of justice. From the perspective of the afterlife, that's a whole new story. Naturally, some people think that the afterlife is much more important than justice, while some others think the afterlife is not worth it if we don't obtain the justice we lack on our universe. The later will hardly have any reason to dedicate himself/herself to God, since the two scenarios I described sooner end up equally: we, humans, were nothing before we were born, we were brought here without being consulted (I know, if you're not alive you can't be consulted, but this - apparent - paradox doesn't make the statement less true) and will never have the power to make real justice, whatsoever.
So, in both scenarios, we've got no justice and pretty similar results (yes, pretty. Not totally). And when it comes to choose between living in injustice and having pleasure and living in injustice and having less pleasure due to the fear of sin, what would be the logic choice?

Ever thought about this?

And this issue is still far from over...

Best wishes.

It seems you are being selective because it is not as if God doesn't give EQUAL chance for all to choose, He does.
Why is that that, given the some evidence, some choose to believe and others don't?
God is NOT fair in the sense that He does NOT go out of His way to convince people of His existence BEYOND what He has done and continues to do.
God IS FAIR in the sense that He gives ALL the same evidence.
The choice to believe is and always has been, up to the individual.
Re-read that again:
Up to the INDIVIDUAL, not the group, not the people, not the race, the INDIVIDUAL.

No one should care what anyone else things about what they believe and why because it is only between them and God.
No one should influence your view on God, it is always YOUR choice.
Justice is getting what you deserve for what you do, not getting what you THINK you deserve.
God is a god of justice, He is, in fact, JUSTICE.
The problem is that what we WANT justice to be ( for us) is not what justice truly is.

God is just because He treats ALL the same, does He not rain on the good and bad? does He not provide for both the good and bad? do not both the good and bad suffer?
Bad things don't happen to good people, bad things ( and good things) happen to ALL.
God's DIVINE Justice is that ALL those that believe in Him will not be judged in the end( because their judgment and redemption happen at the moment of their acceptance of God) and all those that do not believe will be judged by what they have done and, more importantly, WHY.

[MBPrata]

MBPrata. What you are describing in your options is exactly how satan tempted Jesus. He asked him to show them that sort of power you are describing so that they would all bow down in fear.

Silvertusk, I get it, but that was not my intention. I didn't want to tempt Jesus or God, I was just trying to understand why didn't He thought of that by Himself. I mean, it's not "tempting" if Jesus Himself WANTS to do something, instead of doing what other ask Him to do. Is it? I mean, I was not challenging Jesus to do X, I was wondering why in the world didn't He thought of doing that by Himself. Or, if He did, why He didn't go on an do it...