Do mormon's go to heaven too?

[Anonymous]

There is a very worrying thing about Mormon's that often questions whether they are Christians or not - Mormons are polytheists/polotheists. In other words, they don't accept that there is one omnipotent God. In many Mormon pictures at the creation we can see three bearded men, as the representation of God in the celestial Temple. However, there is a more corrupt belief. The belief that "the gods" brought humanity from a different planet. Mormons believe that God (or gods) is very much like me and you, and that there is even a female version of God. The beliefs are sketchy, but most of my sources come from Mormon's themselves in long documents which non-mormons are not encouraged to read, and also from people who are ex-mormons. Mormons have lots of secrets which can only be spoken about in the temple - and that's why most of these beliefs are not widely known. Next time I come on here I will post an interesting website if I can find it ... a Mormon website, with extensively long documents that describe fully Mormon beliefs - the longevity of the works discourages many people from reading it - and that is its aim!
Anyhow, on the subject of salvation - one cannot possibly come on an internet forum and ask such answers. We cannot judge - we should love them as people of humanity created by God - not as Mormons - we do not judge - only God does that. Anybody who establishes a judgement of somebody else, will surely be judged in the same way. Your best bet is therefore prayer - pray for your friend's soul.

With every blessing,
Fr Andrew

[Anonymous]

There is a very worrying thing about Mormon's that often questions whether they are Christians or not - Mormons are polygamists. In other words, they don't accept that there is one omnipotent God. In many Mormon pictures at the creation we can see three bearded men, as the representation of God in the celestial Temple. However, there is a more corrupt belief. The belief that "the gods" brought humanity from a different planet. Mormons believe that God (or gods) is very much like me and you, and that there is even a female version of God. The beliefs are sketchy, but most of my sources come from Mormon's themselves in long documents which non-mormons are not encouraged to read, and also from people who are ex-mormons. Mormons have lots of secrets which can only be spoken about in the temple - and that's why most of these beliefs are not widely known. Next time I come on here I will post an interesting website if I can find it ... a Mormon website, with extensively long documents that describe fully Mormon beliefs - the longevity of the works discourages many people from reading it - and that is its aim!
Anyhow, on the subject of salvation - one cannot possibly come on an internet forum and ask such answers. We cannot judge - we should love them as people of humanity created by God - not as Mormons - we do not judge - only God does that. Anybody who establishes a judgement of somebody else, will surely be judged in the same way. Your best bet is therefore prayer - pray for your friend's soul.

With every blessing,
Fr Andrew

Andrew, hey... a few things, first of all, as far as Latter Day Saints Being Christians.....The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not the 5 points of Calvinism neither Armianism, not sola scripture, or Lutheranism, weysle, Methodism, Catholicism and other reformatory teachings, and if you pay close attention none of these influences are written in the bible. Don't you think that it is fair to call you for what you really are? Not Christians, but Calvinists, Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics. just a thought....

Honestly I don't care if the people call us Christians or not. We already know what is to take the name of Christ in our lives anyways, what's interesting is that God our father and Jesus Christ call us Saints not Christians, and when Jesus Christ speaks to the body of the Priesthood He call us Brethren not Christians.

When we responded the accusations that we are not Christians, we do it not because we want to be accepted by the sects, but we do it because they lie and we responded to the untruth they teach.

It is true early LDS members did not want to be called Christians because the false doctrines of the other churches taught to the people.
We are not part of the Reformation of the Roman Catholic Church.
We are the Restoration of the Everlasting Gospel and the organization of Jesus Christ's church in this Latter Days.

If today's date Christians is = to Calvinism, Lutherism, Armianism, and other philosophical teachings...Surely I do not want to be called Christian, I do not want to be a pretending Christian.

I'm an LDS member not Mormon.
I'm a Saint.

Oh and one more thing.... Isa. 28: 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: If you want to understand deep doctrine you need to start from the begining like everyone else; because your understanding is more like a 5 year old trying to do a Calculus 4 problem.

Take care.

[Kurieuo]

If we have really lost it that much according to LDS theology, then I'm wondering why LDS would allow evangelical Christians such as Ravi Zacharias, to talk at the pulpit of the tabernacle on Temple Square—http://www.rzim.org/faqs/newstext.php?id=62 (and also http://www.rzim.org/faqs/newstext.php?id=63).

Perhaps we aren't as corrupted doctrine-wise as you have come to believe?

Kurieuo.

[Kurieuo]

If you want to understand deep doctrine you need to start from the begining like everyone else; because your understanding is more like a 5 year old trying to do a Calculus 4 problem.

I'm not sure whether this just came out wrongly or what, but please refrain from personal jibes even if you very much disagree with the opinions and theology of Christians here.

Kurieuo.

[Anonymous]

Sorry if that sounded like a personal attack more of some advice... As for being corrupted, I guess i wouldnt call them so much corrupted than incomplete. Many of these reformators have some truths but not all truths... lol maybe if we put them all together we would be a lot closer. The Church of Jesus Christ is not a reformation of Catholicism but rather a restoration of Christs Gospel in the fullness of times.

[Kurieuo]

The claim that the LDS Church restores the Gospel of Christ to its fullness, I woud reject for I see no reason to accept such claims. However, seeing as Evangelical Christians and LDS seem to be coming together on many issues, perhaps we may actually be closer together with our beliefs in a few years time?

Kurieuo.

[Anonymous]

I simply find it hard to understand, how LDS members reject the teachings of the original church. The faith has been handed down from the apostles from generation to generation. If the church was indeed so corrupt, why didn't the Mormon revelation occur earlier ... before the reform? I am not 'having a go' at Mormons or testing them - surely they are our brothers and sister and have faith in Christ, however we are told to look out for people that will come in Jesus' name falsely, and if Jesus has really revealed Himself again in the book of Mormon, I find it hard to accept since Christ promises a glorious and visual revelation. I'm sure you can support your argument, I am interested to find out more.

[Anonymous]

I simply find it hard to understand, how LDS members reject the teachings of the original church. The faith has been handed down from the apostles from generation to generation. If the church was indeed so corrupt, why didn't the Mormon revelation occur earlier ... before the reform? I am not 'having a go' at Mormons or testing them - surely they are our brothers and sister and have faith in Christ, however we are told to look out for people that will come in Jesus' name falsely, and if Jesus has really revealed Himself again in the book of Mormon, I find it hard to accept since Christ promises a glorious and visual revelation. I'm sure you can support your argument, I am interested to find out more.

Andrew, it is a bit confusing, hopefully I can help you understand some things a little better. New Testament prophesies of an apostasy from the true Church of Jesus Christ and evidences from the New Testament that the apostasy had begun during the lives of the Apostles. Briefly, a secular history will show us the growth of the apostasy after the Apostles were gone from the church.
One of the historians who lived immediately after the apostolic period was a man named Hegesippus. A later historian named Eusebius referred to the writings of Hegesippus.
The same author, [Hegesippus] relating the events of the times, also says, that the Church continued until then as a pure and uncorrupt virgin; whilst if there were any at all that attempted to pervert the sound doctrine of the saving gospel, they were yet skulking in dark retreats; but when the sacred choir of apostles became extinct, and the generation of those that had been privileged to hear their inspired wisdom had passed away, then also the combinations of impious error arose by the fraud and delusions of false teachers. These also, as there were none of the apostles left, henceforth attempted, without shame to preach their false doctrine against the gospel of truth. Such is the statement of Hegesippus. (Eusebius, pp. 70-71.)
A historian named Mosheim, who lived after Eusebius, described the changes that occurred during the second century in the ceremonies used in the Christian church.
There is no institution so pure and excellent which the corruption and folly of man will not in time alter for the worse, and load with additions foreign to its nature and original design. Such, in a particular manner, was the fate of Christianity. In this century, many unnecessary rites and ceremonies were added to the Christian worship, the introduction of which was extremely offensive to wise and good men....Both Jews and heathens were accustomed to a vast variety of pompous and magnificent ceremonies in their religious service. And as they considered these rites as an essential part of religion, it was but natural that they should behold with indifference, and even with contempt, the simplicity of the Christian worship, which was destitute of those idle ceremonies that rendered their service so specious and striking. To remove then, in some measure, this prejudice against Christianity, the bishops thought it necessary to increase the number of rites and ceremonies, and thus to render the public worship more striking to the outward senses....The rulers of the church adopted, therefore, certain external ceremonies, that thus they might captivate the senses of the vulgar, and be able to refute the reproaches of their adversaries. (Mosheim, Century II, p. 71)
Mosheim described the changes to the Christian ceremonies that continued through the third century.
All of the records of this century mention the multiplication of rites and ceremonies in the Christian church. Several of the causes that contributed to this, have been already pointed out; to which we may add, as a principal one, the passion which now reigned for the Platonic philosophy, or rather, for the popular Oriental superstition concerning demons, adopted by the Platonists and borrowed, unhappily, from them by the Christian doctors. For there is not the least doubt, but that many of the rites, now introduced into the church, derived their origin from the reigning opinions concerning the nature of demons, and the powers and operations of invisible beings. Hence the use of exorcisms and spells, the frequency of fasts, and the aversion to wedlock. (Mosheim, Century III, pp. 71-72)
Mosheim described the fourth century, a time in which changes and distortions to the church continued.
While the Roman emperors were studious to promote the honour of Christianity, by the auspicious protection they afforded to the church, and their most zealous efforts to advance its interests, the inconsiderate, and the ill-directed piety of the bishops cast a cloud over the beauty and simplicity of the gospel, by the prodigious number of rites and ceremonies which they had invented to embellish it....The rites and institutions, by which the Greeks, Romans, and other nations, had formerly testified their religious veneration for fictitious dieties, were now adopted, with some slight alterations by Christian bishops, and employed in the service of the true God. (Mosheim, Century IV, p. 72)
The Roman emperor Constantine adopted Christianity as the state religion, and the bishops of the Christian church obtained great political power. For centuries the apostasy reined, a period known informally as the "dark ages". John Wesley wrote concerning the age.
It does not appear that these extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit were common in the Church for more than two or three centuries. We seldom hear of them after that fatal period when the Emperor Constantine called himself a Christian....The cause of this was not, as has been supposed, because there was no more occasion for them, because all the world was become Christians. This is a miserable mistake; not a twentieth part of it was then nominally Christian. The real cause of it was that the love of many, almost all Christians, so-called, was waxed cold. The Christians had no more of the spirit of Christ than the other heathens. The Son of Man, when he came to examine his Church, could hardly find faith upon earth. This was the real cause why the extraordinary gifts of the Holy Ghost were no longer to be found in the Christian church--because the Christians were turned heathens again, and only had a dead form left. (Wesley, p. 73)


And then the revolts against of the church of Rome by John wickliffe in England, John Huss and Jerome of Prague, Martin Luther his revolt his excommunication, the protestants, Zwingle and Calvin, the inquisition, separation or branches of the apostate church, fallacy of assuming human origin of divine authority etc.etc.etc.etc.etc.etc. But this was all part of Gods great plan, without the reformatory period the protestants never would have came to America and set the stage for the coming forth of the Restoration of all things. The reformers recognized that apostasy had taken place, and they attempted to bring back the purity of early Christianity. However, they found themselves in a dilemma. They had no authority from God, and they could not receive authority from the Catholic church. They could not receive authority from anyone. So, they turned to the Bible and began to teach that a feeling of being called by God was sufficient and that authority given through ordination by the laying on of hands by someone having authority was not necessary.
The condition of the Christian churches during the reformation can be understood by reference to a parable of a dead tree. The tree was once living and beautiful. But due to neglect, it had died. Others wanting to enjoy the beauty of the tree tried to bring life to the tree by pruning a branch here and pruning one there. But to their dismay, the tree remained lifeless, because its roots were dead. The reformers were great men, and they were inspired by God to break down the political power of the Catholic church, a power that prevented freedom of religion. They were not, however, given priesthood authority by God, and the churches they established were the churches of man. Even though the reformers claimed no authority from God but used the Bible as their authority and guide, they paved the way for religious freedom. (Leigh, Quests for eternity.)

Now about the Book of Mormon, The Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. It is a book about the people who lived on the American continent and it takes place about the same time periods as the Bible. Believe it or not God had prophets all over the globe; is not the word of God for all his children? I'm sure there are many ancient records out there that testify of the divinity of Christ and when we are ready for them they will come forth as well. If you would, go to this link and read the chapter, just curious as to what you think. Is this not the word of God? http://scriptures.lds.org/moro/10

[Anonymous]

Dear Brother,

I'm impressed by your analysis here. I now understand and appreciate it much more. Infact, in the past few days I have almost been obsessed with Mormon doctrine, trying to understand it since I think it is important for people of my faith to understand those of others. I hold no bias whatsoever to any other denomination, I believe God judges according to conscience, not denomination. I believe, that the church(es) is (are) devices for leading a good life, but I reject that idea that the people of one church rise above another. I'm sure if my Bishop heard me seeing this he'd be writing to the Pope immediately! lol.

Anyway ... if you don't mind ... I was wondering if you could clear a few things up for me. I have a few quotations that I would like you to comment on for me should you so wish me to understand.

"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! . . . I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. . . . He was once a man like us; yea that God himself, the Father dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did. " (Smith 321)

God was once a man? As a creationist, I'm sure you can appreciate that this theory to me seems alien (literally!) I cannot accept that the creator of the world was once a man - since God brought all things into being from nothing - a man cannot do this. "Man" was only created after the universe was created - furthermore, if God WAS a man, God WAS a man after he created the universe... doesn't make sense! Help! lol

Next:

"A plurality of gods exist . . . there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods."
-Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, (Salt Lake: Bookcraft, 1991), 576-577.

Is this not pantheism? Elohim - yes indeed ... referring to the God's - not in the literal sence of the word! God the father, son and Holy spirit, in the Trinity?

Finally:

"We are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring . . . and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation."
Talmage, 426.

Would like to understand more about this final one but don't really understand the terminology.

Thanks for all your help!
God bless you!
In Christ,
Fr.A

[Anonymous]

Andrew, as always i would be glad to hlep!

Your first question:

"God was once a man? As a creationist, I'm sure you can appreciate that this theory to me seems alien (literally!) I cannot accept that the creator of the world was once a man - since God brought all things into being from nothing - a man cannot do this. "Man" was only created after the universe was created - furthermore, if God WAS a man, God WAS a man after he created the universe... doesn't make sense! Help! lol. "

Now obviously this has a lot to do with me believing in the prophet Joseph Smith, but lets think about this for just one second. If you would bear with me for a moment. My Mom for example, before she had me, she met my dad, and before she met my dad she was going to college, before college she lived in Texas, she grew up in Texas, she was just a child; a little girl. But that doesn't change that she was my mom, it doesn't change that she would meet my dad and have me. She was just an insignificant little child but someday she would be my mom. And she will always be my mom, even if i got in a time machine and traveled back in time to when she was a kid, she would still be my mom right? Now to get to the point, even though God was a man that does not change the fact that he created us, he is has and always will be God nothing will change that, does that make sense? Now if that doesn't make sense here is a little something from the Bible.

In John 8:17-18 Christ compared He and His father to “two men.” Both “men” bore witness to His divinity. I am sure we will agree to Christ's human aspects while in the flesh. He was a human being like you and I. Only He had Godship within Him. We read in John 5:19, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever He doeth, these ALSO DOETH THE SON LIKEWISE.” We read also in the scriptures, “As the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself (John 5:26)
What was Jesus going to do? The answer is so obvious. John 10:17-18 tells us, “therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again.” This is why the prophet taught these truths. Christ said He could do nothing of Himself, but only that which He had seen His Father do. In this passage we read where He was to take his body, lay it down, and take it up again. There's your answer from the Bible. It's for you to accept or reject, but it is true, and it is from the mouth of Christ. Notice, his was the same identical power as that of the Father.

And in order for us to have perfected Bodies we to must die and rise again. It all just sort of fits together.




Second:


"Is this not pantheism? Elohim - yes indeed ... referring to the God's - not in the literal sence of the word! God the father, son and Holy spirit, in the Trinity?"

I think is is misleading to say that Mormonism is a polytheistic religion. Yes, we believe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate entities, because the Bible teaches that. So, in a way that is a form of polytheism. However, we also believe that there is one Godhead, comprised of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and that the three are perfectly united in all they do and say. To say that Mormonism is a polytheistic religion implies that we believe in more than one god in a way similar to the ancient Greeks and Romans: a god for this, a god for that, and a god for the other. We don't believe that. We believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate, divine beings who are perfectly united in one Godhead

Last:
"We are to understand that only resurrected and glorified beings can become parents of spirit offspring . . . and the spirits born to them in the eternal worlds will pass in due sequence through the several stages or estates by which the glorified parents have attained exaltation
Talmage, 426.

Would like to understand more about this final one but don't really understand the terminology."

When Jesus commissioned his Apostles, he told them their actions would be in effect in the next life.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 16:19)

Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (Matthew 18:18)

The Greek word translated 'bind' in those two verses is deo and means to tie or to be in bonds. Likewise, the Greek word translated 'loose' is luo and means to loosen, breakup, destroy, or dissolve. Jesus told the Apostles that whatsoever they tied together in the spiritual sense on earth would be tied together in Heaven and whatsoever they dissolved on earth would be dissolved in Heaven. An example of this authority to 'bind' is found in the verse immediately following the Savior's declaration to them that they could bind in Heaven. Jesus told them that if two of them agreed on how the prayers of the faithful should be answered by God, then the prayers would be answered that way.

Again, I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 18:19)

That is, the Apostles would act for God in giving answers to prayers. This scripture implies that the authority given the Apostles to bind or make valid in Heaven applied in general to all the work of the Apostles. Thus, if they performed marriages, those marriages would be accepted by God in heaven and would be eternal marriages.

Through latter-day revelation, the Lord revealed that all covenants made with God that are not sealed by the Holy Ghost are null and void upon death.

And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise....are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead. (D & C 132:7)

That is, from the perspective of God, this earth life is but a small moment, and it is his intent that his relationship with us and our relationship with each other be eternal ones, lasting forever. The Lord went on to explain that marriages should be eternal, and that marriages not performed by the Priesthood are void when death occurs.

Wherefore, if a man marry him a wife in the world, and he marry her not by me nor by my word, and he covenant with her so long as he is in the world and she with him, their covenant and marriage are not of force when they are dead, and when they are out of the world; therefore, they are not bound by any law when they are out of the world. (D & C 132:15)

The Lord has revealed that marriages for eternity are to be performed in Temples, both for living couples and by proxy for those who died without this opportunity.

Some who oppose the LDS Church say there are no eternal marriages, and they refer to Matthew 22:30 in which the Savior said in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage. Let us look more closely at that verse. The Sadducees, who by the way did not believe in the resurrection and were trying to trick the Savior, asked Jesus a question about the resurrection. According to the Law of Moses, if a man died his brother would marry his widow to raise up children to the first brother. The Sadducees posed the theoretical question of brother after brother dying, and they asked, Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven [brothers]? for they all had her. In response, Jesus said the following.

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. (Matthew 22:29-30)

Notice that Jesus did not say that marriages would not exist in the resurrection. What he did say was that marriage ceremonies are not performed in the resurrection. He was talking about the act of marriage not the condition of marriage. Jesus was telling them, in effect, that if the wife were married for eternity to one of the brothers, she would be his wife in the resurrection, but if she were not married to any of the brothers for eternity, she would be the wife of none of them since marriages are not performed in the life to come. (Leigh, p.25 Quests For Eternity)

Thats a lot to cover, but i hope I made some sense, If you have any other questions I'd be glad to hear!
Take Care
Jason

[Mastermind]

About Mormon polytheism, don't some people become gods eventually? I was under the impression that this is the reason why mormonism is polytheistic, not because of the trinity.

[Anonymous]

About Mormon polytheism, don't some people become gods eventually? I was under the impression that this is the reason why mormonism is polytheistic, not because of the trinity.

We become like God, co-creators but we will still worship God.

[Anonymous]

Dear Jason,

I now understand more and a lot of my troubles about Mormonism have been settled now; thankyou. And picking up on Mastermind's point - it is internationally accepted by not only the Apostolic Catholic Churches, but the Jewish religion to this day, that upon positive judgement people are "like God" - we also believe we used to be like God, but are no longer due to the fall.

My point about God being a man>>
What I actually meant was: "MAN" begun only after the universe had begun. So, if LDS implies that God created the world as a man, or even, if he was a man before he created the world, then how is this possible? At what point did God become a man? Of course I accept and understand that Jesus Christ was God incarnate - made man, but I don't think this is what was referred to from the quote which I used.

Thanks again,
Fr.A

[Anonymous]

Dear Jason,

I now understand more and a lot of my troubles about Mormonism have been settled now; thankyou. And picking up on Mastermind's point - it is internationally accepted by not only the Apostolic Catholic Churches, but the Jewish religion to this day, that upon positive judgement people are "like God" - we also believe we used to be like God, but are no longer due to the fall.

My point about God being a man>>
What I actually meant was: "MAN" begun only after the universe had begun. So, if LDS implies that God created the world as a man, or even, if he was a man before he created the world, then how is this possible? At what point did God become a man? Of course I accept and understand that Jesus Christ was God incarnate - made man, but I don't think this is what was referred to from the quote which I used.

Thanks again,
Fr.A

Andrew, In all reality this is not important, all that is important is that you believe in Christ and follow his teachings but i will entertain your thoughts. The truth is our minds cannot understand or comprehend any universe but this one, and we dont even understand it. God created us, we are MAN, he is our God because he created us. So in a sense your wondering if God was created by another God and it keeps going on and on with who created who, but no one knows so its best to not think about it. I think the question should not be at wich point did "God" become a "man", but rather at wich point did a "man" become "God".

Just for fun......The Doctrine of the Trinity

An important evidence of the apostasy is the distortion that occurred in the church about an understanding of the nature of God. The result of this distortion was a doctrine known today as The Trinity.

The Bible teaches that members of the Godhead are separate personages but one in unity. I believe the early Christians worshipped that type of God. However, as we have discussed, wickedness and persecution grew, and church members adopted sinful practices from neighboring countries.
The Apostles tried to correct the church, but they were unsuccessful in this because they were scattered and communication between them and groups of Christians was slow. In cases where the Apostles did learn of wickedness in the church, they were not always able to communicate with the people and exhort them to repent. As a result of persecution, the Apostles were killed, and the time came that the church was without their inspired leadership.

Once the Apostles were gone, the Bishops over the churches in individual cities began to extend their influence to other areas, causing them to contend with each other. Philosophers introduced changes in the doctrines of the church, and the church languished in apostasy. One of the conflicts in the apostate church concerned whether the Son was coequal with the Father since he had been created by the Father. Constantine used his political power to bring the Bishops together in a council, known as the Council of Nice, in 325 AD to settle this and other conflicts. The result of this meeting was the Nicene Creed which stated among other things that the Father and the Son were one in "substance" (in our language we would say one in person). Later, another creed known as the Athanasian Creed was formed. This creed states the following.

We worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, is all one; the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet there are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated; but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty; and yet there are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God. (Talmage, pp. 47-48)

In other words, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are of one "substance" or person but are revealed to man in three forms. The Church of England expressed this concept of the Trinity in the following words.

There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passions; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness. (Talmage, p. 48)

Imagine! People claiming to be the Church of Jesus Christ and not being able to agree on the nature of God! Instead of having inspired Apostles as their foundation who could receive divine revelation from God, they resorted to councils of intellectuals. Jesus taught it was .life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent (John 17:3). Life eternal to know God, and yet it required the intervention of the Roman emperor to bring the apostate Christians together to agree on the nature of God!

Many Christians today believe in one God rather than three separate personages in one Godhead. These people are sincere and think their belief in one God comes from the Bible, but it doesn't. Their belief comes from the Catholic Bishops, the intellectuals, and the philosophers who met in councils to debate the nature of God. (Leigh, p.16 Quests For Eternity)

Once again im not sure if I answered your question its an intresting subject and I would suggest you pray about it, thats how I got my answers =) "ask and ye shall recive."

P.S. did you follow that link and read that chapter, just curious on your thoughts?

Take Care
Jason

[Kurieuo]

Jason,

I ask you to begin trying to dialogue a bit more, or at least reference the writings you are cutting and pasting as responses.

Thanks,
Kurieuo.