If Jesus was God, why wasn't He more obvious?

[Audie]

I am former atheist. 25 years. 2 years agnosticism and now 3 years am believer.

I was raised in atheistic home. Father had his views about Christians and they passed on me. Now I realize I had false assumptions. Like Christians being not intelligent, easily falling into believing something untrue. Mentioning this, yes, Audie, seeing your friend picking a leaf and seeing it as a sign from God, well, ... Do you marvel at it? Do you wonder what truth can be there within Christianity if poeple so easily fall into believing something?

I had my views about Christians. But not all were like that. I wanted to meet intelligent and friendly and honest at the same time Christian and dialog with him. Such Christian I met and I was slowly drawn.

I always say: if you are highly intelligent person, find some Christian that would suit your level. And find some that will suite you as a friend too. It is nice tomeet someone similar.

Also, when being atheist, I have not really explored Christianity. I just in fact dismissed it thinking they are wrong.

Thanks 1/137.

I wonder if you buy into the things being said above, about belief in lies etc.
Some, tho not here go further with how I'm given over to fleshly lusts.
I kind of doubt that you do, but I'd like to know.


Some people with a background like yours do become devout, others from religious backgrounds go the opposite route. What the psychology of it all might be is not something I can comment on.

I have had the good fortune to know some few Christians who I greatly admire for their intellect and character. So while I was a child, the Christians were more like a curiosity and I had a child's notions, I know better now than to stereotype "all Christians..". I could see "joining the club" with those few Christians I mentioned. But I dont believe in the God, and I can associate with them without doing that.

Creationists / fundamentalists do seem to draw their strength from lower rungs of the academic ladder, but of course, there are exceptions.

A lot of people, Christians included, are horribly naive, very gullible in accepting anything they want to believe.
No sense about what constitutes reasonable evidence and what is silly. That same "leaf girl" is sure that there was a Noahs Ark, and that all the geology etc that show it couldnt have happened are atheists and dupes of Satan. You know.. consequently anything she might say about evidence of God gets a zero with me.

So if someone says they have evidence of whatever, I kind of like to know where they are coming from on the continuum from hardcore skeptic to childishly gullible.

As for your question, do I marvel? Why yes. That marvelling most drove Mom to despair that I'd ever act like a girl, led me to a degree in biology. Do I wonder what others see in their religion? Sure. My exploration of Christianity, my couple of tries at "asking God to enter my heart" got me further from accepting it.

That leads into the whole thing of "choose to believe", which to me is worse than nonsense.

Of course, I wonder too about the other religions which mean so much to so many other people. Why am I different? Am I different? Can i or should I change?

Thanks for your post.

[Audie]

From a Christian perspective, "Unbelievers" are not necessarily atheists, it's just that they have rejected the one True God. Atheists claim there is no/are no God or gods - although I'm suspicious of how many of them truly believe what they claim. Is Satan an unbeliever? Technically, yes - but certainly he's no atheist.

Is that THE Christian perspective, or is it shared by you with some percent of others?

Of course "unbelievers" are not necessarily anything in particular. There are many many millions of us. We come in tall and short, too.

When I was about 14, some Christian lady in the US said to me, that she believed that in their hearts, atheists really believe in God. That was one of those little epiphanies for me, till then I'd thought, those religious people, in their hearts they dont really believe in all that stuff. "Im suspicious of how many of them truly believe what they claim".

And rightly so, when one observes how little they observe the strictures of the religion they nominally adhere to.

As for me, you can take my word for it. I dont believe in the god of the OT, the one of the NT, in Allah or any of them. I dont think J Smith found any gold books, and the list goes on. Im pretty sure you truly dont believe in any but, you know, the "true God".

If you have actually had the good fortune to have picked the one True God, if such there even be, great. It is tho, a belief shared by pretty much everyone, about their true god. So what is one such as I to think of the "lo here", and, "lo there"?

"Reject" is not at all the correct word for my indifference to any claimed god, be it of some remote jungle or presided over by the Pope.

Your statement that "atheists claim there is no god" simply is not true of me or anyone I know. Certainly no one with a trace of training in the science as a way of thinking would say such a thing. Nobody can KNOW if there is a Bigfoot, or a god. I just dont believe in them. You do see the difference?

[RickD]

Audie wrote:
Your statement that "atheists claim there is no god" simply is not true of me or anyone I know. Certainly no one with a trace of training in the science as a way of thinking would say such a thing. Nobody can KNOW if there is a Bigfoot, or a god. I just dont believe in them. You do see the difference?

Going by what you said here, and elsewhere on this forum, I wouldn't consider you an atheist. You seem more like an agnostic, regarding God.
A true atheist believes God/gods don't exist. Fwiw.

[Audie]

Audie wrote:
Your statement that "atheists claim there is no god" simply is not true of me or anyone I know. Certainly no one with a trace of training in the science as a way of thinking would say such a thing. Nobody can KNOW if there is a Bigfoot, or a god. I just dont believe in them. You do see the difference?

Going by what you said here, and elsewhere on this forum, I wouldn't consider you an atheist. You seem more like an agnostic, regarding God.
A true atheist believes God/gods don't exist. Fwiw.

I suppose now its down to definitions. However, as It is impossible to know that God does not exist, one can only have an opinion, ie, belief. I dont believe in the existence of any god or gods. I dont do religion of any kind. Like I dont do football, making me, not agnostic about it, but a, yes, afootballist.

[1over137]

I am former atheist. 25 years. 2 years agnosticism and now 3 years am believer.

I was raised in atheistic home. Father had his views about Christians and they passed on me. Now I realize I had false assumptions. Like Christians being not intelligent, easily falling into believing something untrue. Mentioning this, yes, Audie, seeing your friend picking a leaf and seeing it as a sign from God, well, ... Do you marvel at it? Do you wonder what truth can be there within Christianity if poeple so easily fall into believing something?

I had my views about Christians. But not all were like that. I wanted to meet intelligent and friendly and honest at the same time Christian and dialog with him. Such Christian I met and I was slowly drawn.

I always say: if you are highly intelligent person, find some Christian that would suit your level. And find some that will suite you as a friend too. It is nice tomeet someone similar.

Also, when being atheist, I have not really explored Christianity. I just in fact dismissed it thinking they are wrong.

Thanks 1/137.

I wonder if you buy into the things being said above, about belief in lies etc.
Some, tho not here go further with how I'm given over to fleshly lusts.
I kind of doubt that you do, but I'd like to know.

This is what Philip said:

Now, no doubt God must work on a person's mind and heart to believe - and He will, IF they, at some point, are THEMSELVES willing to cease resisting, listen, respond and obey to Him as He prompts them - and this process begins WELL before they are saved. But you have NO idea whether or not a person's willfully resistant heart and mind are their ultimate present problem, as opposed to asserting that the "reason" is that God has not yet made this possible for them. As it is a very good likelihood that an unbeliever has been given ALL they require to go further towards knowing and understanding God but their TRUE current problem is that THEY have remained UNWILLING and resistant in heart and mind when that is the opposite of what God's heart desires for them. So, often, the unbeliever is the problem - he has more than enough understanding and information to at least be willing to respond to God as he's been enabled to. But a persistently resistant unsaved person is often his own and only remaining problem - certainly it's not because God hasn't yet flipped some "magic switch." This is exactly what Romans 1 tells us - the hearts and minds of unbelievers are UNWILLING to respond to even what they've already been "clearly" made aware of. And it is why they are without excuse. THEY chose to not listen, to avoid, to believe in lies. It's certainly not that God doesn't allow and hasn't yet provided ALL an opportunity to choose to obey Him. The problem isn't Him, it's THEM!

Well, I in the past believed in Christians not being intelligent, being easily fooled, all being hypocrats. I believed it as I grew in atheistic surrounding. I would say now that I believed in a lie. But this is not what you ask really.

Well, some years (7 or so) before becoming a believer, you know, I wished there would be God. I wished God to be true. But I simply did not see this to be true. I would not say I was unwilling. I was willing and how much. Just things did not make sense to me at all. (There are still many things I wonder about.) But with the time (and I believe with God's help too - there was kind of switch in me.) things started to have more and more sense. One just cannot push himself into belief. You cannot fool your heart.

Some people with a background like yours do become devout, others from religious backgrounds go the opposite route. What the psychology of it all might be is not something I can comment on.

Some may not become devout. (And btw, may someone call me devout? I still do not attend a church. Sigh.)
There are also people from religious backgrounds who never go opposite route.
There are all kinds of people with all kinds of situations.

I have had the good fortune to know some few Christians who I greatly admire for their intellect and character. So while I was a child, the Christians were more like a curiosity and I had a child's notions, I know better now than to stereotype "all Christians..". I could see "joining the club" with those few Christians I mentioned. But I dont believe in the God, and I can associate with them without doing that.

That's great you have them. I am glad.

Creationists / fundamentalists do seem to draw their strength from lower rungs of the academic ladder, but of course, there are exceptions.

A lot of people, Christians included, are horribly naive, very gullible in accepting anything they want to believe.
No sense about what constitutes reasonable evidence and what is silly. That same "leaf girl" is sure that there was a Noahs Ark, and that all the geology etc that show it couldnt have happened are atheists and dupes of Satan. You know.. consequently anything she might say about evidence of God gets a zero with me.

Christians are to be cautious, yes. But what is wise to God may be a foolishness to the world. And I would be careful to designate someone to be duped by Satan.
I try to be careful myself.

So if someone says they have evidence of whatever, I kind of like to know where they are coming from on the continuum from hardcore skeptic to childishly gullible.

I understand.

As for your question, do I marvel? Why yes. That marvelling most drove Mom to despair that I'd ever act like a girl, led me to a degree in biology. Do I wonder what others see in their religion? Sure. My exploration of Christianity, my couple of tries at "asking God to enter my heart" got me further from accepting it.

That leads into the whole thing of "choose to believe", which to me is worse than nonsense.

Of course, I wonder too about the other religions which mean so much to so many other people. Why am I different? Am I different? Can i or should I change?

Thanks for your post.

I remember that I was asking my friend something like (we were also discussing God's offer to me)
- If there is God why I do not see it? It is like - choose number 11 out of numbers 1 to 10. There is not 11 in the set. So how I can choose it?

[Audie]

Thanks 1/137

I in the past believed in Christians not being intelligent, being easily fooled, all being hypocrats. I believed it as I grew in atheistic surrounding. I would say now that I believed in a lie

Fortunately, I never had any such belief.

Perhaps in any case its more like a misunderstanding, such as those expressed elsewhere about atheists, than a lie as such.

Id still like someone who thinks I believe in lies to say what they are.

As for wishing or wanting a god, it never occurred to me to do that.


In science, if you wish for a certain result, you are all too likely to get it.

The doing of experiments, the examination of data must be done objectively with no wished-for result.

The easiest person to fool is ourselves. Double edged sword, that one. Im sure its as easy to be fooled (should there be a god knocking) into thinking its the wind as to be fooled by a leaf.

[1over137]

I know how science works. And scientific approach held me back from God.

Now I recall, that going into my past even further what I wanted was idealism, people being nice and all. Not necessarily God wanting.

I am idealist. As far as I remember I was.

[1over137]

Id still like someone who thinks I believe in lies to say what they are.

I would say that
that lie = belief of existence of no gods

[Audie]

I know how science works. And scientific approach held me back from God.

Now I recall, that going into my past even further what I wanted was idealism, people being nice and all. Not necessarily God wanting.

I am idealist. As far as I remember I was.

If you know how science works, does it not trouble you..
In science, if you wish for a certain result, you are all too likely to get it.

If science / logic / evidence etc tell me something isnt so, then not much is likely to say it is. If objectivity must be cast aside to get somewhere, I dont want to go there.
There seems a theme to this forum about objective evidence for God...?

As for idealism...

It is well to remember that Mao, and some few others were idealists. Idealism is another double edge sword, dont you think so?

To me, a person's foremost duty is to that person's family. Not to self, not to state, not to a god, not to anything but family.

What ideals do you strive for, if I may ask?

[Audie]

Id still like someone who thinks I believe in lies to say what they are.

I would say that
that lie = belief of existence of no gods

To me, it looks as if a person wants to believe till they've convinced themselves that they do.

Which is the lie?

[1over137]

I know how science works. And scientific approach held me back from God.

Now I recall, that going into my past even further what I wanted was idealism, people being nice and all. Not necessarily God wanting.

I am idealist. As far as I remember I was.

If you know how science works, does it not trouble you..
In science, if you wish for a certain result, you are all too likely to get it.

If science / logic / evidence etc tell me something isnt so, then not much is likely to say it is. If objectivity must be cast aside to get somewhere, I dont want to go there.
There seems a theme to this forum about objective evidence for God...?

As for idealism...

It is well to remember that Mao, and some few others were idealists. Idealism is another double edge sword, dont you think so?

To me, a person's foremost duty is to that person's family. Not to self, not to state, not to a god, not to anything but family.

What ideals do you strive for, if I may ask?

It seems to me that now you will be fixated on what I said concerning the wish.
Yes, even scientists sometimes fool themselves. Even Einstein fooled himself when he added a constant into his equation to keep the universe stady.
I do not think that my wish several years ago before I became a believer somehow significanly change things. I remeber once writing my friend: "i cannot say anything more just if he (God) is then he is, if he is not then he is not.

Ideals? You know, it would be good if there are no wars, no argues, no poor people, honest people.

[1over137]

Id still like someone who thinks I believe in lies to say what they are.

I would say that
that lie = belief of existence of no gods

To me, it looks as if a person wants to believe till they've convinced themselves that they do.

Which is the lie?

I believe one day we both will know.

[Audie]

Or wont. One of the few real binary questions.

[Philip]

Audie: My exploration of Christianity, my couple of tries at "asking God to enter my heart" got me further from accepting it."

So FAR, Audie, so far.

My wife is a biologist. She's technical in multiple fields. We believe in the scientific method, but we don't necessarily place faith in what various scientists ASSERT but cannot prove or replicate. Merely claiming that something is a certainty, that it's only a matter of time before it's a proven fact - well, yes, part of their analysis did involve the scientific method, but it wasn't necessarily carried out to an unquestionable conclusion. EVIDENCE + various analysis does NOT equal proof. And there are LIMITS to what science is able to explain, and the beginning of the universe is one giant example of that!

Audie, apparently, although you say you are very influenced by science, you also believe in miracles. Let's back up about 10 billions years before any arguments about how life evolved life on earth: There was NOTHING in existence, nothing moving, and then suddenly, something magnificient occurred, in which time, space, matter, gases, chemicals, dimension, etc immediately burst into existence - this is what the Big Bang science tells us - that everything sprang from what is called singularity (yes, and where did THAT come - along with the cosmos genetic code it necessarily contained)? ALL science tells us that EVERYTHING has a cause, that NOTHING comes from nothing. This was not some random event, either. As the very precise, unfathomably complex, and necessarily comprehensively interactive laws of the universe were immediately in operation, intelligently guiding this enormous, uncaused burst of heat, energy,matter, etc. - from nothingness. Cosmic laws don't just invent or create themselves. A universe doesn't simply appear where there was nothing. String theory, multiple universes, etc - forget about them - as they are all dependent upon there being a first one, and the "genesis" of whatever came first also had the same miraculous origins.

Do you believe a universe began by itself, with great order and precise laws INSTANTLY guiding it? Whatever happened, you would have to say it was miraculous. Great precision and unfathomable order and universe-building elements came out of dumb, random chance - caused by WHAT? You see, this alone should make one consider that God exists. Unless you believe in one enormous, interactive, unfathomably complex set of miracles which just happened to occur. I don't believe in uncaused universes - or ANYTHING in which there wasn't something prior - at least not by itself and left to random chance doing so from nothingness. But if you believe there is no God, then this is where your science necessarily leads you - to the inexplicable miraculous (sorry, I can't think of a better term!).

Audie, by the way, although the Christians here may not agree with you, and even though we can sometimes be rather blunt, we are NOT your enemy - we care about you, that you will begin to see the same hope we have - Hope based upon a very real and loving God!

[Audie]

I really have to study...just one thing for now.

Your understanding of "fact" and "prove" as applied to science must be very different from mine.

Oh, and, no, I didnt see people here as enemies.

Min