Faith and works

[RickD]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're getting at, but see if this is what you mean. While I came to faith in Christ because I was a witness to the work of the Holy Spirit in my mom, I don't presume that God can't use simple logic to bring someone to the point of trusting Christ. For example, someone could study the historical facts about Christ, and decide he wants to trust Christ for salvation.

So, I guess I'm saying that what brought me to Christ was spiritual(the work of the HS), logic can bring someone to Christ too.

Paul states that only through the HS can one proclaim that Jesus is Lord.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

What I am asking is if you believe that someone can believe ( and by that I mean belief AND proclaim) that Jesus is Lord and Saviour without the HS?

That's an interesting question Paul. My take on it is that at the moment one trusts Christ for salvation, one is indwelt by the HS. I would say there's maybe a prompting or leading by the HS, for one to get to the point of trusting Christ. If that helps any. But since I have no idea where you're taking this, I'm not sure if I'm even answering your question.

[RickD]

We are using words to describe God's grace, which is always tricky of course.
I do NOT think that anyone here is advocating a gospel other than the gospel that is THE Gospel and no one is advocating that there are things that one can do to be saved.
That James made this issue the focus of his letter means that this is NOT a new issue or one that is easily addressed.
IMO, to be saved one must be sealed by the HS and that process, that Anointing, starts the process of renewal in Christ.
Is that process the same for all? of course not.
Is that process visible to all? of course not.
BUT there is a process, there is SOMETHING that happens to believers ( even if it is simply the understanding that we NEED Grace to be saved).

No, there is nothing that we can do to deserve salvation and His Grace, NO there are no works worthy of such a gift.
BUT, if the HS is in US and the process of renewal is working in us because the HS is in Us, then, IMO, there is evidence of that ( if to no one else, at least to the believer the knows that He is under God's grace).

Can one truly believe in Christ as Lord and Saviour and deny Him? deny the HS?
And isn't denying what the HS pushes us to do, denying Him?

But Paul,

In what he wrote, WLC is advocating a different gospel. If works necessarily follow one who has genuine faith as Craig puts it, then someone who doesn't show good works, doesn't have genuine faith. And that's a different gospel. With sanctification, a believer who continues to abide in/trust Christ, will show good works. I believe Jac is saying that's how sanctification and good works should happen.

But as soon as one adds good works as a necessity to salvation, as WLC did, it's adding something to salvation besides belief alone.

[PaulSacramento]

I agree Rick BUT I don't Think WLC is ADDING works as a necessity of salvation.
I think what he is trying to say is that because the HS dwells within Us and is actively changing us for the better that, some good works will come from that.
I think he is stating that a person that openly preaches Christ AND openly blasphemes the HS by going against what Christ teaches is a hypocrite, wouldn't you agree?
I don't think I have ever heard or read WLC state that anything OTHER than faith is needed for salvation ( I may be wrong of course).
I think that in our zeal to make clear that salvation is by FAITH ALONE and NOT by any works, we tend to reject arguments that MAY APPEAR to suggest that some sort of works are needed.
I think if we go back to James we get the same view that WLC is stating, that BECAUSE of our faith we are saved and BECAUSE of being saved, the HS drives us to be better, renews us to be better and that good works are a part of this process.

[jlay]

Jac's right. And WLC has missed the boat on this one. He is adding something to faith in Christ, for salvation. WLC is saying a presence of sin in someone's life means he wasn't saved.

I don't think he is saying t hat at all AND don't forget Who he is directing this to, a Muslim.
Context is, as always everything.

It seems to me ( and I may be interpreting this wrong) that WLC is addressing an issue that many non-christians have with the whole (mis)understanding about salvation by faith alone.

They seem to believe that ALL that one needs to do is believe and have faith and they can do whatever they want and they will be saved.
We know this to be incorrect because if one DOES HAVE FAITH, that faith is given by the HS and it is the HS that starts the process of renewal in those with faith ( not those that simply SAY they do and truly do not).
That process is not perfect in the sense that since we are NOT perfect we will stumble and fall and more often than not, we will NOT do what Our Lords asks AND commands of those that DO have faith in Him.
That is VERY different than those that SAY they have faith and do not have it and simply sin, and sin is doing what is wrong KNOWING it is wrong and NOT CARING.
Yet, to an outsider it may LOOK exactly the same ( that is a believer falling and a person that simply SAYS they believe and sinning).

No one is adding anything to Christ's sacrifice or faith in Christ, what WLC is stating is that the faith we truly show in Christ, the belief in HIM as Our Lord and saviour Will/Should show signs of renewal in those that believe.

Lack of good works does NOT land anyone in Hell UNLESS they do NOT believe in Christ because it is our true belief in Christ that saves us from judgement based on our good works ( or lack there of).

It seems to me that in our desire to be clear that NO AMOUNT of good works makes us worth of salvation that we forget that good works are "expected" from believers IF the HS is truly dwelling in them.
Does that mean that believers do not sin? that they are shining examples of charity and mercy and love?
No, it means that the HS is IN them trying to make them that way NOT because they have to be that way to be saved BUT because they are saved by virtue of their faith in Christ.

He is absolutely saying that. He is backloading the Gospel with works, which is the most common form of LS around today. This says, if you are saved then you will produce good works. Unfortunately, this destroys grace. Salvation, in this case, is merited by what the person produces after they believe. It isn't a matter of faith, but demonstrating that one has faith by works.

[jlay]

I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're getting at, but see if this is what you mean. While I came to faith in Christ because I was a witness to the work of the Holy Spirit in my mom, I don't presume that God can't use simple logic to bring someone to the point of trusting Christ. For example, someone could study the historical facts about Christ, and decide he wants to trust Christ for salvation.

So, I guess I'm saying that what brought me to Christ was spiritual(the work of the HS), logic can bring someone to Christ too.

Paul states that only through the HS can one proclaim that Jesus is Lord.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed"; and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

What I am asking is if you believe that someone can believe ( and by that I mean belief AND proclaim) that Jesus is Lord and Saviour without the HS?

The context is the subject of spiritual gifts, and not how one is saved. An unsaved person does not have the HS. But, that doesn't mean the work of the HS is only an in-dwelling one. For example, we know the HS will convict the world of sin.
So, what does it mean that only through the HS can one proclaim 'Jesus is Lord.' Is this saying that one must first have the in-dwelling of the HS to be able to place their faith in the Gospel? If this is the claim then I'm anxious to hear that explanation defended.
Is it saying that the HS implants thoughts and beliefs into to our mind to proclaim?

FWIW, I do believe the indwelling of the HS can and does work to produce fruit. But i see this not as a monergistic work, but a synergistic working of the HS with man. As we submit (voluntarily) to the HS, then we will produce fruit. But that is a distinct doctrine from salvation itself. I'd venture to say that 80% or more of the NT is instruction for believers on how to live this out and manifest the work of the HS in their lives. If it was as WLC explains, then the NT would be a pamphlet, as believers would spontaneously begin to exhibit holiness.

[jlay]

I agree Rick BUT I don't Think WLC is ADDING works as a necessity of salvation.
I think what he is trying to say is that because the HS dwells within Us and is actively changing us for the better that, some good works will come from that.
I think he is stating that a person that openly preaches Christ AND openly blasphemes the HS by going against what Christ teaches is a hypocrite, wouldn't you agree?
I don't think I have ever heard or read WLC state that anything OTHER than faith is needed for salvation ( I may be wrong of course).
I think that in our zeal to make clear that salvation is by FAITH ALONE and NOT by any works, we tend to reject arguments that MAY APPEAR to suggest that some sort of works are needed.
I think if we go back to James we get the same view that WLC is stating, that BECAUSE of our faith we are saved and BECAUSE of being saved, the HS drives us to be better, renews us to be better and that good works are a part of this process.

Paul,
He is saying, verbatim, that if a person exhibits certain behaviors then they are not saved. He is making a clear judgment of salvation. Jesus instructed, "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." (Matt. 7:1,2)
This says that God will judge you in the same way you judge others, and he will apply to you the same rules you apply to others. We should only judge in a way we would want to be judged. So, do I, or WLC, want our salvation to be judged on how good a job we did with our behavior while on this earth? That's a slippery slope. If WLC says that the Gospel mandates a life of certain behavior (or lack thereof) after professing belief, then he will be judged according to his works.
The only hope I have is to plead the blood of Christ. In terms of fitness for heaven, I have nothing to bring to the table. I certainly do not want to stand in the day of judgment and have to stand on my words, thoughts and deeds since I became a believer. I will burn in eternal Hell. I am not trusting on my performance as a Christian. I am trusting solely on the finished work of Jesus Christ.

[RickD]

PaulS wrote:
I agree Rick BUT I don't Think WLC is ADDING works as a necessity of salvation.
I think what he is trying to say is that because the HS dwells within Us and is actively changing us for the better that, some good works will come from that...

Paul,

By Craig's own words, he is adding works to salvation. Again, he wrote:

...Good deeds are a necessary condition of salvation in a logical sense, in that, necessarily, if someone has saving faith, then he will do good deeds...

If what Craig said here is true:

If someone has a saving faith, then he will do good deeds.

Then it must be true that if someone does not do good deeds, he does not have saving faith.

It's as clear as day that Craig is saying anyone with a saving faith will do good deeds. Which makes good deeds necessary for salvation.

[Starhunter]

The judgement is based on works, you either fail or pass according to your works, not according to any personal claims.

If faith is just a belief and not "the substance of things hoped for" then faith is just a whim and not a real work at all, and we will have nothing to prove in judgement except our sad history.
But according to the Bible true faith is a work, a work which Jesus Himself advocated. Genuine faith is not an act, but a real event or work of God. To believe in God is to surrender to Him, surrender cannot be imaginary, but a real action of the heart and mind.

The Jews asked Christ "What shall we do that we might work the works of God?" John 6:28,29. Jesus answered
" This is the work of God, that ye believe in Him who He has sent."
Then they asked for a sign - physical proof of it, which proof can only be found in total surrender to God, proof which we may not see, but others may, and especially which only God sees and approves.

The only works God will accept are those of His own Son, through the Holy Spirit, who is called the comforter, comforting those who feel the fears of conviction.

The work of the Christian is to surrender daily and with challenges. To trust is to know His reliability, to obey is to have faith in Him, to depend and count on His works of righteousness within us. We cannot begin the work of God, neither can we end it. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Hebrews 12:2.

There are systems of thought in Christendom that talk about believing only, and there unspoken agendas within the religious community which put the 'believer' under obligation again. Whereas God cannot accept an acclimatized behavioral standard for salvation. He will only accept the perfect work of His Son the High Priest.

The Priesthood of Christ not only provides full atonement, but the works of God to be done by Him in us and for us. This is what the Bible calls "the mystery of Godliness." We don't know how He does it.
What God does within us, is really none of our business anyway, but we expect Him to bring us up to the standard of God which He knows, beginning in the heart and revealing itself outwardly in good works.

The churches have removed that standard of God by telling the world that the ten commandments have somehow been made redundant, and they have replaced that standard by their own ideas based on their own concept of what love and spirituality is.
Basically they have dismissed God and accepted humanism - pretending to be good, the religion of Satan.

Jesus said, make the tree good first and it will bear good fruit.

The perfect life of Christ cannot be the standard for humanists, they have a standard which God will not accept. "Do the best you can" type of thing.
However, if our faith is truly in God, then we trust in His capabilities to complete the job of preparing us in heart and mind to be one with Him, one in love, and one in faith that works by love.

If God does not do this then our religion is a farce and nothing better than paganism, which leaves people where they are, only to get worse, while believing that they are getting better judged by their feelings of progress.
However, if we have been given the power to become the sons and daughters of God then our faith is real, and the transformation is real.

The spirituality of the law demands a heart work, as Jesus said that if we think harm, we are guilty before God as doing it.
It demands perfection of motive, - which is not humanly possible - ever, while we are sinners, yet what is impossible for man is possible for God.

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, but the majority of Christendom has a false gospel, which simply does not work any transformation or obedience to His commandments.

Satan is counting on the world's ignorance in regards to God's requirements and especially the efficiency of Christ to save from sin, and to change the life.

[1over137]

John 14:26 ESV
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Romans 8:26 ESV
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

Galatians 5:22-23 ESV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

I believe once we start to believe we are given The Helper who teaches us. But that does not mean we will exhibit holy qualities immediately. Only God knows about the changes in our hearts. For others it may look like nothing happened. Or maybe it just will take many many years if not whole life for the person to transform slowly.

[PaulSacramento]

Guys, look at what he is saying:

Good deeds are a necessary condition of salvation in a logical sense, in that, necessarily, if someone has saving faith, then he will do good deeds

In a LOGICAL sense, someone who saved will do good things necessarily, as opposed to be saving and doing BAD things necessarily.
IE ( at least they way I am understanding him):
Faith in Christ = being saved= desire to do good things.
As opposed to:
Faith in Christ= Being saved- Desire to NOT do good/desire to do bad.

That is what I see WLC arguing.

His argument in in answer to the issue ( raise by the Muslim) that IF faith is all the is needed then people won't do anything good.
WLC is countering that it is FAITH that drives people to do good, NOT to be saved BUT BECAUSE they ARE saved.

[Jac3510]

Which is just a nice way of teaching salvation by works. Bottom line: no works = no salvation. That is a false gospel.

The way to answer the Muslim is to say that abiding in faith result in good works. But to make works a necessary result of salvation is heresy. It isca false gospel. It also shows a gross misunderstanding of God. To threaten someone with hell because they don't act right? Really?

So much for the cross. He should just go become Catholic. At least on this point they are internally consistent. Wrong, yes. But at least consistent.

[PaulSacramento]

Which is just a nice way of teaching salvation by works. Bottom line: no works = no salvation. That is a false gospel.

The way to answer the Muslim is to say that abiding in faith result in good works. But to make works a necessary result of salvation is heresy. It isca false gospel. It also shows a gross misunderstanding of God. To threaten someone with hell because they don't act right? Really?

So much for the cross. He should just go become Catholic. At least on this point they are internally consistent. Wrong, yes. But at least consistent.

I know you keep saying that Jac BUT I just don't see that, this is what WLC is staying.
More accurately he maybe sating : bad works = no salvation for a believer.
As for Catholics:
The issue of salvation is often times viewed as imply WORK of some sort BUT I think that is because of how the RCC states it:
EX:
1129 The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.51 "Sacramental grace" is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature52 by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior.

The above for the Catechism of the RCC seems to imply that a sacrament is necessary for salvation ,indeed it STATES it clearly, BUT what it CONTINUES to say is that ths sacrament is the grace of the HS given by Christ.
And I think most would agree that without GRACE one is NOT saved so the statement that a sacrament is need is NOT wrong or against "salvation by brace alone" because the sacrament that saves IS Grace.

I agree that at times it seems to state that works is needed for salvation BUT I think that is misunderstood.
I seems to me that the RCC states that good works are a requirement for the sanctification process as they put it:


INDIVIDUAL SALVATION

—The Council of Trent describes the process of salvation from sin in the case of an adult with great minuteness (Seas. VI, v-vi). It begins with the grace of God which touches a sinner's heart, and calls him to repentance. This grace cannot be merited; it proceeds solely from the love and mercy of God. Man may receive or reject this inspiration of God, he may turn to God or remain in sin. Grace does not constrain man's free will. Thus assisted the sinner is disposed for salvation from sin; he believes in the revelation and promises of God, he fears God's justice, hopes in his mercy, trusts that God will be merciful to him for Christ's sake, begins to love God as the source of all justice, hates and detests his sins. This disposition is followed by justification itself, which consists not in the mere remission of sins, but in the sanctification and renewal of the inner man by the voluntary reception of God's grace and gifts, whence a man becomes just instead of unjust, a friend instead of a foe and so an heir according to hope of eternal life. This change happens either by reason of a perfect act of charity elicited by a well disposed sinner or by virtue of the Sacrament either of Baptism or of Penance according to the condition of the respective subject laden with sin. The Council further indicates the causes of this change. By the merit of the Most Holy Passion through the Holy Spirit, the charity of God is shed abroad in the hearts of those who are justified.

[RickD]

The judgement is based on works, you either fail or pass according to your works, not according to any personal claims.

If faith is just a belief and not "the substance of things hoped for" then faith is just a whim and not a real work at all, and we will have nothing to prove in judgement except our sad history.
But according to the Bible true faith is a work, a work which Jesus Himself advocated. Genuine faith is not an act, but a real event or work of God. To believe in God is to surrender to Him, surrender cannot be imaginary, but a real action of the heart and mind.

The Jews asked Christ "What shall we do that we might work the works of God?" John 6:28,29. Jesus answered
" This is the work of God, that ye believe in Him who He has sent."
Then they asked for a sign - physical proof of it, which proof can only be found in total surrender to God, proof which we may not see, but others may, and especially which only God sees and approves.

The only works God will accept are those of His own Son, through the Holy Spirit, who is called the comforter, comforting those who feel the fears of conviction.

The work of the Christian is to surrender daily and with challenges. To trust is to know His reliability, to obey is to have faith in Him, to depend and count on His works of righteousness within us. We cannot begin the work of God, neither can we end it. Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Hebrews 12:2.

There are systems of thought in Christendom that talk about believing only, and there unspoken agendas within the religious community which put the 'believer' under obligation again. Whereas God cannot accept an acclimatized behavioral standard for salvation. He will only accept the perfect work of His Son the High Priest.

The Priesthood of Christ not only provides full atonement, but the works of God to be done by Him in us and for us. This is what the Bible calls "the mystery of Godliness." We don't know how He does it.
What God does within us, is really none of our business anyway, but we expect Him to bring us up to the standard of God which He knows, beginning in the heart and revealing itself outwardly in good works.

The churches have removed that standard of God by telling the world that the ten commandments have somehow been made redundant, and they have replaced that standard by their own ideas based on their own concept of what love and spirituality is.
Basically they have dismissed God and accepted humanism - pretending to be good, the religion of Satan.

Jesus said, make the tree good first and it will bear good fruit.

The perfect life of Christ cannot be the standard for humanists, they have a standard which God will not accept. "Do the best you can" type of thing.
However, if our faith is truly in God, then we trust in His capabilities to complete the job of preparing us in heart and mind to be one with Him, one in love, and one in faith that works by love.

If God does not do this then our religion is a farce and nothing better than paganism, which leaves people where they are, only to get worse, while believing that they are getting better judged by their feelings of progress.
However, if we have been given the power to become the sons and daughters of God then our faith is real, and the transformation is real.

The spirituality of the law demands a heart work, as Jesus said that if we think harm, we are guilty before God as doing it.
It demands perfection of motive, - which is not humanly possible - ever, while we are sinners, yet what is impossible for man is possible for God.

The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, but the majority of Christendom has a false gospel, which simply does not work any transformation or obedience to His commandments.

Satan is counting on the world's ignorance in regards to God's requirements and especially the efficiency of Christ to save from sin, and to change the life.

Starhunter,

You are making a common mistake, that a lot of us have made. Including myself. It seems you are conflating salvation and discipleship.

[RickD]

Guys, look at what he is saying:

Good deeds are a necessary condition of salvation in a logical sense, in that, necessarily, if someone has saving faith, then he will do good deeds

In a LOGICAL sense, someone who saved will do good things necessarily, as opposed to be saving and doing BAD things necessarily.
IE ( at least they way I am understanding him):
Faith in Christ = being saved= desire to do good things.
As opposed to:
Faith in Christ= Being saved- Desire to NOT do good/desire to do bad.

That is what I see WLC arguing.

His argument in in answer to the issue ( raise by the Muslim) that IF faith is all the is needed then people won't do anything good.
WLC is countering that it is FAITH that drives people to do good, NOT to be saved BUT BECAUSE they ARE saved.

Paul,

If good works are necessarily the result of genuine faith, that means works are an inevitable sign of a genuine faith. If something is necessarily a result of something, that means it has to happen. That's what necessarily means. Which again, means Craig is saying works are always a sign of genuine faith. Which means to Craig, works are necessary for salvation.

[B. W.]

John 14:26 ESV
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Romans 8:26 ESV
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

Galatians 5:22-23 ESV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

I believe once we start to believe we are given The Helper who teaches us. But that does not mean we will exhibit holy qualities immediately. Only God knows about the changes in our hearts. For others it may look like nothing happened. Or maybe it just will take many many years if not whole life for the person to transform slowly.

Well, Hana stated it better than all here!

The work is to believe in Christ and the Holy Spirit does the rest. Folks struggle with the work of the Holy Spirit within and many call this human works and are told in no uncertain terms by many well intentioned people to basically shut up as any and all works are considered anathema. However the change occurs in Christians over time anyways. I suggest we stop working so hard at keeping the Holy Spirit locked up in the grace basement justifying the enemy's work of having a field day ruining the the whole house.

Each of us our God's house. With that, he is in charge and will come out of the basement and clean house. Yes, he will take his time and the work of the Lord will be done within and thus changing us noticeably without evidenced by what we do and say. We can work real hard to fight it and deny it working even harder calling it an option but no matter how hard one works at grace to justify that no change needed, well, will one day we will be confronted with that change that cleans the house and makes a person mature and no longer a docile infants bellyaching that is is not necessary to learn to walk as crawling is better.

Over the past month, I noticed during my time with family and in church this: I feel as though I am standing on the dock watching people board the Titanic. So as I hear and read this thread, I am hearing from from folks here that Grace teaches - let them board you can do nothing for if you do, then you are touting works! Well, answer to God as you will. At least I know a few listened and did not board, such is the love of God changing this old house.

Have a nice day...
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