Faith and works

[RickD]

John 14:26 ESV
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Romans 8:26 ESV
Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.

Galatians 5:22-23 ESV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

I believe once we start to believe we are given The Helper who teaches us. But that does not mean we will exhibit holy qualities immediately. Only God knows about the changes in our hearts. For others it may look like nothing happened. Or maybe it just will take many many years if not whole life for the person to transform slowly.

Well, Hana stated it better than all here!

The work is to believe in Christ and the Holy Spirit does the rest. Folks struggle with the work of the Holy Spirit within and many call this human works and are told in no uncertain terms by many well intentioned people to basically shut up as any and all works are considered anathema. However the change occurs in Christians over time anyways. I suggest we stop working so hard at keeping the Holy Spirit locked up in the grace basement justifying the enemy's work of having a field day ruining the the whole house.

Each of us our God's house. With that, he is in charge and will come out of the basement and clean house. Yes, he will take his time and the work of the Lord will be done within and thus changing us noticeably without evidenced by what we do and say. We can work real hard to fight it and deny it working even harder calling it an option but no matter how hard one works at grace to justify that no change needed, well, will one day we will be confronted with that change that cleans the house and makes a person mature and no longer a docile infants bellyaching that is is not necessary to learn to walk as crawling is better.

Over the past month, I noticed during my time with family and in church this: I feel as though I am standing on the dock watching people board the Titanic. So as I hear and read this thread, I am hearing from from folks here that Grace teaches - let them board you can do nothing for if you do, then you are touting works! Well, answer to God as you will. At least I know a few listened and did not board, such is the love of God changing this old house.

Have a nice day...
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B. W.,

Nobody here is saying a believer shouldn't do good works. Nobody here is saying we should stifle the Holy Spirit in us.
All we are saying is that works aren't necessary for salvation. And that good works are what a believer should produce. And a believer will do good works if he continues to abide in Christ. A believer needs to cooperate with the Holy Spirit. We are saying that the process DOES NOT WORK like this:
Trust Christ. Get salvation. Sit on the couch and forget about trusting Christ, and the Holy Spirit will automatically do good works.

We need to trust Christ to be saved. Then we need to abide in Christ (continue trusting Christ) then the Holy Spirit will do good works in us.

[Jac3510]

I know you keep saying that Jac BUT I just don't see that, this is what WLC is staying.
More accurately he maybe sating : bad works = no salvation for a believer.

And THIS is why WLC is preaching a a false gospel. You are saying that some believers do NOT have salvation. Look at your words: no salvation for a believer. But Jesus says ALL believers have everlasting life. He does NOT say all believers that also do good works have everlasting life. He does not say some believers have everlasting life and then add qualifications are. He says ALL believers have everlasting. So when WLC or you or the RCC or anyone else says that some believers do NOT have everlasting life (because they don't do good works or aren't baptized or haven't repented enough or don't give money to the church or aren't a member of the right church or don't keep the law or do too many sins or whatever condition you wish to add), then you are saying that Jesus is wrong.

Once again, note the contrast:

Jesus: everyone who believes in Me has everlasting life
WLC: not all believers have everlasting life

So who is preaching the false gospel? Jesus or WLC?

[PaulSacramento]

Guys, look at what he is saying:

Good deeds are a necessary condition of salvation in a logical sense, in that, necessarily, if someone has saving faith, then he will do good deeds

In a LOGICAL sense, someone who saved will do good things necessarily, as opposed to be saving and doing BAD things necessarily.
IE ( at least they way I am understanding him):
Faith in Christ = being saved= desire to do good things.
As opposed to:
Faith in Christ= Being saved- Desire to NOT do good/desire to do bad.

That is what I see WLC arguing.

His argument in in answer to the issue ( raise by the Muslim) that IF faith is all the is needed then people won't do anything good.
WLC is countering that it is FAITH that drives people to do good, NOT to be saved BUT BECAUSE they ARE saved.

Paul,

If good works are necessarily the result of genuine faith, that means works are an inevitable sign of a genuine faith. If something is necessarily a result of something, that means it has to happen. That's what necessarily means. Which again, means Craig is saying works are always a sign of genuine faith. Which means to Craig, works are necessary for salvation.

In his own words:

I don’t think you realize what a terrible curse salvation by works is. Wholly apart from the fact that none of us could manage to be good enough in order to earn our way to heaven, salvation by works puts us on the treadmill of trying to earn favor with God rather than gratefully receive His unmerited love and grace.

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/brazilia ... z3LKQKzjMz

But perhaps here we get a better view of the whole issue of faith and works:


Discussion

Question: I was wondering if James has univocal use of the word justification that Paul does.

Answer: Yeah, you are thinking of the passage where James talks about faith and works?

Followup: That “we are not justified by faith alone.” I think he says that pretty explicitly.

Answer: Right. OK, James 2:18 and following:

But some one will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness”; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Now, on a prima facie level – at face value – this looks to be in contradiction to what Paul teaches in Romans where he says that Abraham was not justified by works, but he was justified by faith alone. Indeed, Luther felt very uncomfortable with the book of James. He called it “a right strawy epistle” and even thought maybe it shouldn’t be in the canon. But I think when you read James closely that it is evident that what he’s talking about is that a faith which is apart from works (in verse 20) is a barren faith. It is not a genuine faith. A faith apart from works is barren. And Paul certainly would have agreed with that. We will see that even more clearly when we talk about the New Perspective on Paul which emphasizes the role of works in Paul’s doctrine of justification. Then, notice what James says about the relation between faith and works in verse 22. “You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works.” The works are the completion of the saving faith.[5] Notice that the example he uses is not Abraham’s believing the promise – that is the one that Paul uses where Abraham believed God’s promise. He’s using here Abraham’s offering of Isaac upon the altar – a later event. So he sees Abraham’s willingness to offer the son of the promise, Isaac, on the altar as completing that faith that Abraham had that Paul was talking about when God says “and you shall all the nations in the world be blessed, and Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” Here James sees that Scripture being fulfilled because that faith issued forth in works that showed it was real. He was willing to give up his son Isaac. So while, agreed, there is a sort of superficial, I think, conflict here, I feel confident that if Paul and James were to sit down together that Paul would be quite in agreement with James that genuine saving faith cannot be devoid of works but does issue in the fruit of good works which is the completion of that faith. And James would not think that the works that Abraham did were in some way meritorious and earned his salvation. So I think that while there is maybe superficial conflict here, really I don’t think that the conflict is deep.



Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defender ... z3LKWEJOHK

[PaulSacramento]

I know you keep saying that Jac BUT I just don't see that, this is what WLC is staying.
More accurately he maybe sating : bad works = no salvation for a believer.

And THIS is why WLC is preaching a a false gospel. You are saying that some believers do NOT have salvation. Look at your words: no salvation for a believer. But Jesus says ALL believers have everlasting life. He does NOT say all believers that also do good works have everlasting life. He does not say some believers have everlasting life and then add qualifications are. He says ALL believers have everlasting. So when WLC or you or the RCC or anyone else says that some believers do NOT have everlasting life (because they don't do good works or aren't baptized or haven't repented enough or don't give money to the church or aren't a member of the right church or don't keep the law or do too many sins or whatever condition you wish to add), then you are saying that Jesus is wrong.

Once again, note the contrast:

Jesus: everyone[/i] who believes in Me has everlasting life
WLC: not all believers have everlasting life

So who is preaching the false gospel? Jesus or WLC?

Ah yes, very well put.
I worded that very poorly.
What I meant to say is that:
Bad works = no salvation because there person is NOT a believer.

The tricky point is, and I see this, we are getting into the "no true Scotsman" territory.
" No TRUE believer would actively do what is worn, knowing it is wrong" ( Which I do not agree with- the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak...)

The question then is begged:
Can one the SAYS they believe BUT openly shows contempt for Christ BE a believer?

[Jac3510]

Here's a diagram to make it clearer

SalvationDiagram - Faith and Works.png (7.51 KiB) Viewed 3231 times

The question is, who is saved? Is it a) those in the left circle (the blue), b) those in the right circle (the yellow), or c) those in BOTH circles (the green)?

If you don't say "the blue" then you are preaching a false gospel. WLC says the green. He is preaching a false gospel.

edit:

Now you are just redefining "believer." You are right that you are in No True Scotsman territory. The word "believe" does NOT mean "one who acts right." It means "one who places their faith in Christ." The fact is that there are lots of people, even in Scripture, who would be unsaved by WLC's definition of "believer." David was a murderer. Peter denied Jesus three times. The elders in John 12:42 did so, too. Simon Magnus was a sorcerer and rebuked by Peter. Oh, and Peter again . . . a hypocritical racist for about ten years after salvation, and then one who fell into a false gospel himself and had to be rebuked by Paul! Pretty much the entire Corinthian church, including the man who was turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. Lot. Do I need to say much about him? Look how he left the Old Testament?

I could go on and on. The fact is, believers can and do fall into terrible sin for which they never repent. Many Christians never bear any fruit. According to WLC, they are not saved because they don't believe, and he says that not because they don't believe (they do--that's what the word means) but because they don't ALSO do good works. Therefore, WLC is teaching faith PLUS works, which is a false gospel and heresy.

edit2:

As to your question, such a person will likely be harshly disciplined by God in this life, up to including his early death. He will lose rewards in the next life. But we cannot say that this person is not saved. To do so is to preach a false gospel, to believe a false gospel, and render ourselves unbelievers!

I immediately, grant, of course, that SAYING you are a believer doesn't make you one. Actually believing the gospel makes you a believer, and that regardless of how you live or what you say. The question is ONLY whether or not a person believes the gospel. Their works after salvation is absolutely NO indicator of whether or not they have "truly" believed (a qualifier, by the way, that religious folk like to use that never once appears in the Bible . . . fancy that). To make works such an indicator is, again, to preach a false gospel.

[PaulSacramento]

Here's a diagram to make it clearer

SalvationDiagram - Faith and Works.png

The question is, who is saved? Is it a) those in the left circle (the blue), b) those in the right circle (the yellow), or c) those in BOTH circles (the green)?

If you don't say "the blue" then you are preaching a false gospel. WLC says the green. He is preaching a false gospel.

edit:

Now you are just redefining "believer." You are right that you are in No True Scotsman territory. The word "believe" does NOT mean "one who acts right." It means "one who places their faith in Christ." The fact is that there are lots of people, even in Scripture, who would be unsaved by WLC's definition of "believer." David was a murderer. Peter denied Jesus three times. The elders in John 12:42 did so, too. Simon Magnus was a sorcerer and rebuked by Peter. Oh, and Peter again . . . a hypocritical racist for about ten years after salvation, and then one who fell into a false gospel himself and had to be rebuked by Paul! Pretty much the entire Corinthian church, including the man who was turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. Lot. Do I need to say much about him? Look how he left the Old Testament?

I could go on and on. The fact is, believers can and do fall into terrible sin for which they never repent. Many Christians never bear any fruit. According to WLC, they are not saved because they don't believe, and he says that not because they don't believe (they do--that's what the word means) but because they don't ALSO do good works. Therefore, WLC is teaching faith PLUS works, which is a false gospel and heresy.

edit2:

As to your question, such a person will likely be harshly disciplined by God in this life, up to including his early death. He will lose rewards in the next life. But we cannot say that this person is not saved. To do so is to preach a false gospel, to believe a false gospel, and render ourselves unbelievers!

I immediately, grant, of course, that SAYING you are a believer doesn't make you one. Actually believing the gospel makes you a believer, and that regardless of how you live or what you say. The question is ONLY whether or not a person believes the gospel. Their works after salvation is absolutely NO indicator of whether or not they have "truly" believed (a qualifier, by the way, that religious folk like to use that never once appears in the Bible . . . fancy that). To make works such an indicator is, again, to preach a false gospel.

You are quite correct Jac.
Well put.
Thought I still don't THINK WLC means what you say he is saying, I agree it can seem that way ( take into account that I know WLC total view on salvation and he is quite clear that it is based on FAITH ALONE).
Would it be better to state that FAITH CAUSES good works?
I agree that good works is NOT an indicator of faith in Christ.

[PaulSacramento]

Should I take it that you agree that, perhaps, good works lead to rewards AFTER we are saved?
I ask because of this that you wrote:

He will lose rewards in the next life. But we cannot say that this person is not saved

.

[RickD]

Paul,
How can you understand what Jac is saying, yet not see what WLC is saying?

PaulS wrote:
Would it be better to state that FAITH CAUSES good works?
I agree that good works is NOT an indicator of faith in Christ.

Faith WILL cause good works IF a believer abides in Christ. Good works are not "automatic" just because one is a believer.

And Craig is saying that good works ARE "automatic" or necessarily going to happen, with genuine faith. Thereby making good works a NECESSARY sign of genuine faith.

[PaulSacramento]

Paul,
How can you understand what Jac is saying, yet not see what WLC is saying?

PaulS wrote:
Would it be better to state that FAITH CAUSES good works?
I agree that good works is NOT an indicator of faith in Christ.

Faith WILL cause good works IF a believer abides in Christ. Good works are not "automatic" just because one is a believer.

And Craig is saying that good works ARE "automatic" or necessarily going to happen, with genuine faith. Thereby making good works a NECESSARY sign of genuine faith.

Could it be a case of justification VS salvation?
I say this because WLC is quite clear that salvation is based on FAITH alone.
However, as we have read ( and anyone can read on his site), good works are expected to be some sort of factor in the process of BEING saved ( not TO BE saved).


On sa side note I do enjoy the fact that we have been having this discussion and we have kept it very civil.

[RickD]

Paul,
How can you understand what Jac is saying, yet not see what WLC is saying?

PaulS wrote:
Would it be better to state that FAITH CAUSES good works?
I agree that good works is NOT an indicator of faith in Christ.

Faith WILL cause good works IF a believer abides in Christ. Good works are not "automatic" just because one is a believer.

And Craig is saying that good works ARE "automatic" or necessarily going to happen, with genuine faith. Thereby making good works a NECESSARY sign of genuine faith.

Could it be a case of justification VS salvation?
I say this because WLC is quite clear that salvation is based on FAITH alone.
However, as we have read ( and anyone can read on his site), good works are expected to be some sort of factor in the process of BEING saved ( not TO BE saved).


On sa side note I do enjoy the fact that we have been having this discussion and we have kept it very civil.

Paul,
A lot of people are adamant that they believe in faith alone. But as jlay and Jac said before, it's a kind of "back door" works type of salvation. And to be fair to Craig, he may not even realize what he's actually saying.

I can see what Craig is saying because I used to say the exact same thing. It sticks out to me like a sore thumb.

[PaulSacramento]

I think that the position of "good works are evidence of faith in Christ" is an understandable one because many passages of the bible lead to that view, James epistle is one of course BUT also:

Matthew 25:31-46New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Judgment
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’ 44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

[LittleHamster]

There are some examples of faith but no works.....

The thief who died on the cross next to Jesus. He was saved at the last minute through faith.

And people who are beggars their whole life, are sick, or are in prison - i.e., no works

[Jac3510]

I think that the position of "good works are evidence of faith in Christ" is an understandable one because many passages of the bible lead to that view, James epistle is one of course BUT also: [Matthew 25:31-46]

James 2:14ff does not teach that "true faith" necessarily produces works.

Neither does the judgment of the sheep and goats. The sheep receive a special reward--notice they "inherit" the kingdom. The latter receive a special punishment--notice that they are departing into the fire "prepared for the devil and his angels."

Once again, works play a role in our experience of eternal life (or eternal death), both in this life and the next. Works do not play a role in whether or not we go to heaven or hell.

[Kurieuo]

Here's a diagram to make it clearer

SalvationDiagram - Faith and Works.png

The question is, who is saved? Is it a) those in the left circle (the blue), b) those in the right circle (the yellow), or c) those in BOTH circles (the green)?

Good diagram. Sadly, I think many Christians and theologians get caught up on mere "belief" without investigating what it entails.

If no one seeks God, then for us to "believe in God" shows a change in our normal response. A spiritual change. A change in heart. A desire to follow God.
When we believe in something, it runs deep. This is why discussions inevitably boil over into heated debates. When someone attacks our belief, we often feel they're attacking us.

Consider pisteuo, the term often translated into "belief": http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons ... steuo.html
It is rather complicated if you think about it. Belief is rather complicated.

We as Christians cannot make ourselves believe God doesn't exist at a click of our fingers any more than an Atheist can make themselves instantly believe in God. Rather deeper changes need to happen such that belief (the end result) comes to fruition. When you finally believe then all those other deeper inward changes with you are attached to it.

Trying to think of a good analogy here, but it'll probably be less than good. Think of a seedling in fertile ground being watered. Eventually it sprouts into a small plant or flower. In order to sprout it is receiving the water and sun such that an inward change happens that enables it to grow. The sprouting is like "belief" alone. It is the end result of God's nurturing if us will, or sometimes even God cracking our hard outer shell against the rocks to try and break us. But, to just leave it at "belief" and ignore all the changes that happened, such seems to me rather hollow.

If someone truly believes in Christ, then it stands to reason that such inner changes that brought a person to that point should bear out in works.* Jesus talks of determining false prophets by the fruit that they bear, and the way they act. (Matt 7:15-20) While it is not a hard and fast rule, there is merit to the thought that if a Christian is getting worse -- something suspicious is going on with their "belief".

*BUT, at the same time "belief" is an incorrigible thing to us. We can immediately know by a mere reflection whether or not we believe in something. Others don't have the same access to our beliefs that we do. So rest assured, if you believe Christ, hoping in Him for acceptance before an all-righteous God, that your faith will be accepted and Christ will intercede. You probably don't even realise all the ways you are being changed from the inside out. (Philippians 1:6)

[RickD]

Here's a diagram to make it clearer

SalvationDiagram - Faith and Works.png

The question is, who is saved? Is it a) those in the left circle (the blue), b) those in the right circle (the yellow), or c) those in BOTH circles (the green)?

If you don't say "the blue" then you are preaching a false gospel. WLC says the green. He is preaching a false gospel.

Jac,

I'm with you, but you lost me on the diagram and the question. I would say those in the blue and the green are saved. Those in the green(as the diagram is written), do believe. They also have good works. It doesn't say they need the good works to be saved. It simply says they do good works. By saying only the blue is saved, you seem to be saying that believers can't do good works. Maybe the diagram could be worded better?