Faith and works

[Philip]

Clearly, there is mere belief (like the devil has - and that even future believers may have) but that is not a saving faith, trust and sincere desire to follow Christ. Mere belief can APPEAR to be a saving faith but that is far different from one with a sincere mind and heart faith in Jesus, which is what Jessus made possible and is ETERNALLY applied at the moment of salvation. And, so, for a time, with some, we can't really know or see the difference. But a lack of fruit over a long period IS a major clue as to the truth of the matter. The ONLY key is WHY and WHEN does God apply His salvation. And as it is HIS salvation, the only way it would be removed is if HE decided to declare what He said was eternal to suddenly be deemed only temporary.

But how can ETERNAL life be TEMPORARY???!!! And how could we ever have faith in A Jesus we think might one day drop us? Else, at least the way some here appear to see it, is that we can't have faith in being eternally saved because what God did on the Cross is supposedly threatened by our possible, future falling away - which would also mean our supposed eternal life is only as secure as OUR ability to remain faithful. So, we're to believe our hope for eternal life is based upon Jesus-PLUS...US???!!! That our faith and hope is only as secure as our ability to NEVER screw up, to ALWAYS remain faithful? And why would God save one He would fully know they would only eventually abandon Him? This is all unSciptural nonsense and a misapplication and misunderstanding of various passages.

[RickD]

Philip wrote:


Clearly, there is mere belief (like the devil has - and that even future believers may have) but that is not a saving faith, trust and sincere desire to follow Christ. Mere belief can APPEAR to be a saving faith but that is far different from one with a sincere mind and heart faith in Jesus, which is what Jessus made possible and is ETERNALLY applied at the moment of salvation...

Philip, the problem with this, is that the devil wasn't offered the gift of eternal life, by trusting Christ.

And the second problem is that if salvation is based on our sincerity, then it's not based on Christ alone. It's based on how sincere we are.

Look,
Eternal life is a gift. The moment one trusts in Christ, one has eternal life. Take that to its logical conclusion, and that would mean that even someone like Hitler, if he trusted Christ(I'm not saying he did, just that it's possible) he is saved. Any other way, and you are destroying grace.

[Philip]

Rick, I agree - see my now-completed post. No, the devil was never offered what we are. My point is merely that he does also merely believe as do many unsaved persons. And yet, this belief is no different than the belief of the devil, even though mortals haven't near Satan's knowledge of God.

[PaulSacramento]

And as to your last comments, when Jesus said they lost their faith, He meant exactly that. They stopped trusting in Him. They stopped placing their faith in Him. It's the same thing the author of Hebrews was talking about with his book. Needless to say, that doesn't mean they never believed (if that were the case, then Jesus is just contradicting Himself). Still less does it mean that they lost their salvation. It just means that they don't produce fruit. And what is the "crop" they produce? Good works (so Eph 2:10). And from that it is clear that good works are the result of abiding in faith (which Jesus says explicitly in John 15). They are not the necessary result of placing your faith in Christ for salvation, since, per Jesus' own remarks, we may not abide in faith after all (which is also explicitly said in John 15).

On your view, people who reject Christ after becoming a Christian, and even vehemently attack Christianity are saved.
Even the likes of Hitler if he believed in Christ cannot undo his being saved.
There is no way one can reject Christ if they believed, even if they no longer want anything to do with God.
I can't accept that view.

Does someone like Hitler deserve less grace than someone else? Being consistent, are you saying that the likes of King David aren't saved either?

Did Hitler not blasphemy the HS?
Is that not a sin from which there is no being saved?

[RickD]

Rick, I agree - see my now-completed post. No, the devil was never offered what we are. My point is merely that he does also merely believe as do many unsaved persons. And yet, this belief is no different than the belief of the devil, even though mortals haven't near Satan's knowledge of God.

Philip,

Maybe you could clear up what you mean when you said that unsaved persons believe.

John 3:16 says:
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

In other words, believe in Christ, and you have eternal life. Yet you said that unsaved persons believe. Which seems like a direct contradiction. Could you explain?

[RickD]

And as to your last comments, when Jesus said they lost their faith, He meant exactly that. They stopped trusting in Him. They stopped placing their faith in Him. It's the same thing the author of Hebrews was talking about with his book. Needless to say, that doesn't mean they never believed (if that were the case, then Jesus is just contradicting Himself). Still less does it mean that they lost their salvation. It just means that they don't produce fruit. And what is the "crop" they produce? Good works (so Eph 2:10). And from that it is clear that good works are the result of abiding in faith (which Jesus says explicitly in John 15). They are not the necessary result of placing your faith in Christ for salvation, since, per Jesus' own remarks, we may not abide in faith after all (which is also explicitly said in John 15).

On your view, people who reject Christ after becoming a Christian, and even vehemently attack Christianity are saved.
Even the likes of Hitler if he believed in Christ cannot undo his being saved.
There is no way one can reject Christ if they believed, even if they no longer want anything to do with God.
I can't accept that view.

Does someone like Hitler deserve less grace than someone else? Being consistent, are you saying that the likes of King David aren't saved either?

Did Hitler not blasphemy the HS?
Is that not a sin from which there is no being saved?

I have no idea if Hitler blasphemed the HS. Why do you say that?

[Philip]

Philip, Maybe you could clear up what you mean when you said that unsaved persons believe.

Meaning, that they believe God EXISTS. The Pharisees believed that Jesus EXISTED. But their response (and also of many today) is that they were not responding to Him as a God to place faith in and follow, but a mere intellectual understanding that He merely exists, even developing various lies to explain Him away, to continue happily upon the path they so desire. Some, such as Judas, APPEARED to follow Jesus as Lord, but clearly and tragically did not, to his destruction.

[jlay]

Clearly, there is mere belief (like the devil has - and that even future believers may have) but that is not a saving faith, trust and sincere desire to follow Christ. Mere belief can APPEAR to be a saving faith but that is far different from one with a sincere mind and heart faith in Jesus, which is what Jessus made possible and is ETERNALLY applied at the moment of salvation. And, so, for a time, with some, we can't really know or see the difference. But a lack of fruit over a long period IS a major clue as to the truth of the matter. The ONLY key is WHY and WHEN does God apply His salvation. And as it is HIS salvation, the only way it would be removed is if HE decided to declare what He said was eternal to suddenly be deemed only temporary.

But how can ETERNAL life be TEMPORARY???!!! And how could we ever have faith in A Jesus we think might one day drop us? Else, at least the way some here appear to see it, is that we can't have faith in being eternally saved because what God did on the Cross is supposedly threatened by our possible, future falling away - which would also mean our supposed eternal life is only as secure as OUR ability to remain faithful. So, we're to believe our hope for eternal life is based upon Jesus-PLUS...US???!!! That our faith and hope is only as secure as our ability to NEVER screw up, to ALWAYS remain faithful? And why would God save one He would fully know they would only eventually abandon Him? This is all unSciptural nonsense and a misapplication and misunderstanding of various passages.

Philip,
There is not a "mere" believe. This is a modern concept of 'faith' that is not found in the Bible. Many use the terms, spurious faith, or genuine faith. I've been guilty of this as well. What really effects salvation is the object of faith. Scripture says that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, for those who beleive. Belief/Faith is the means by which we appropiate, but faith itself isn't a mystical or magical force or commodity. You won't find such definitions of faith in the Bible. Further, salvation is for man, not for Satan or his angels. They are incapable of entrusting themselves to the Gospel because the Gospel is not a message for them.
What does, "a sincere desire to follow Christ" mean to a lost person? That sounds an awful lot like a committment. If salvation requires a committment then it is a bi-lateral contract and is contingent on both parties fulfilling their obligations. Thus, this means that one is contributing to their salvation. Paul never mentions the term "follow Christ" in any of his doctrine. Never, not once. When Jesus asked His disciples to "follow" Him, He literally meant it. If Jesus went to Capernaum, they followed Him. The term "follow Christ" today has been redefined into some ambigous phrase that has no clear definition or connection to the scripture. What most people mean by this phrase is that they will attempt to conform to some method of religious practice. I will pray, read my bible, tithe, not cuss, not drink, get water baptized, etc. etc. Paul is the ONLY person God chose to scripturally unpack and expound upon the doctrine of justification by faith, and it is no accident that he never uses the phrase 'follow Christ' when explaining one's personal salvation.

[RickD]

jlay wrote:
There is not a "mere" believe. This is a modern concept of 'faith' that is not found in the Bible. Many use the terms, spurious faith, or genuine faith. I've been guilty of this as well. What really effects salvation is the object of faith. Scripture says that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, for those who beleive. Belief/Faith is the means by which we appropiate, but faith itself isn't a mystical or magical force or commodity. You won't find such definitions of faith in the Bible. Further, salvation is for man, not for Satan or his angels. They are incapable of entrusting themselves to the Gospel because the Gospel is not a message for them.
What does, "a sincere desire to follow Christ" mean to a lost person? That sounds an awful lot like a committment. If salvation requires a committment then it is a bi-lateral contract and is contingent on both parties fulfilling their obligations. Thus, this means that one is contributing to their salvation. Paul never mentions the term "follow Christ" in any of his doctrine. Never, not once. When Jesus asked His disciples to "follow" Him, He literally meant it. If Jesus went to Capernaum, they followed Him. The term "follow Christ" today has been redefined into some ambigous phrase that has no clear definition or connection to the scripture. What most people mean by this phrase is that they will attempt to conform to some method of religious practice. I will pray, read my bible, tithe, not cuss, not drink, get water baptized, etc. etc. Paul is the ONLY person God chose to scripturally unpack and expound upon the doctrine of justification by faith, and it is no accident that he never uses the phrase 'follow Christ' when explaining one's personal salvation.

Well said Mr. Joel!

[Kurieuo]

And as to your last comments, when Jesus said they lost their faith, He meant exactly that. They stopped trusting in Him. They stopped placing their faith in Him. It's the same thing the author of Hebrews was talking about with his book. Needless to say, that doesn't mean they never believed (if that were the case, then Jesus is just contradicting Himself). Still less does it mean that they lost their salvation. It just means that they don't produce fruit. And what is the "crop" they produce? Good works (so Eph 2:10). And from that it is clear that good works are the result of abiding in faith (which Jesus says explicitly in John 15). They are not the necessary result of placing your faith in Christ for salvation, since, per Jesus' own remarks, we may not abide in faith after all (which is also explicitly said in John 15).

On your view, people who reject Christ after becoming a Christian, and even vehemently attack Christianity are saved.
Even the likes of Hitler if he believed in Christ cannot undo his being saved.
There is no way one can reject Christ if they believed, even if they no longer want anything to do with God.
I can't accept that view.

Does someone like Hitler deserve less grace than someone else? Being consistent, are you saying that the likes of King David aren't saved either?

I'm not sure I communicated clearly the full gist of what I was saying.
Because it's more than that Rick.

What I am saying isn't just a sinner receiving God's grace.
But, someone who having found it rejects it and tramples it under foot. Purposefully.
For whatever reasons they want nothing to do with God or Christ any more.
And yet, you want them to be trapped into being with God for all eternity because once upon a time they "believed"?

Furthermore, if what one embraces is simple belief, an intellectual assent... then it logically follows that someone could unwittingly be saved without choice.
So, if someone happens to "believe" Christ died for them, for all, and yet wanted nothing to do with it. Well, they're "saved".
This is nothing short of divine rape in my opinion -- someone being forced to be with God for all eternity who absolutely despises Him.

How can these absurdities be removed?

[Kurieuo]

Also, no one deserves grace.

[RickD]

K wrote:
What I am saying isn't just a sinner receiving God's grace.
But, someone who having found it rejects it and tramples it under foot. Purposefully.
For whatever reasons they want nothing to do with God or Christ any more.
And yet, you want them to be trapped into being with God for all eternity because once upon a time they "believed"?

How many of us don't sin purposefully at all? I know how much sin hurts me and everyone around me. Yet I still sin.

I hear what you're saying K. But I don't really see being with God eternally, as trapped. We are all weak. And I pray to God that nothing ever happens to me that makes me want to curse or reject God. But I'm so thankful that if I do ever reject Him, He won't ever reject me. That's God's amazing grace!
As much as I don't deserve eternal life, God has given it to me anyways!!!

Furthermore, if what one embraces is simple belief, an intellectual assent... then it logically follows that someone could unwittingly be saved without choice.
So, if someone happens to "believe" Christ died for them, for all, and yet wanted nothing to do with it. Well, they're "saved".
This is nothing short of divine rape in my opinion -- someone being forced to be with God for all eternity who absolutely despises Him.

Trusting in who Christ is and what he has done for salvation, has to be deliberate.

[RickD]

Also, no one deserves grace.

Of course! That's the whole point. Someone such as hitler doesn't deserve grace any less than someone else like Billy Graham.

[Philip]

jlay: Philip,
There is not a "mere" believe. This is a modern concept of 'faith' that is not found in the Bible. Many use the terms, spurious faith, or genuine faith. I've been guilty of this as well. What really effects salvation is the object of faith. Scripture says that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, for those who beleive. Belief/Faith is the means by which we appropiate, but faith itself isn't a mystical or magical force or commodity. You won't find such definitions of faith in the Bible. Further, salvation is for man, not for Satan or his angels. They are incapable of entrusting themselves to the Gospel because the Gospel is not a message for them.
What does, "a sincere desire to follow Christ" mean to a lost person? That sounds an awful lot like a committment. If salvation requires a committment then it is a bi-lateral contract and is contingent on both parties fulfilling their obligations. Thus, this means that one is contributing to their salvation. Paul never mentions the term "follow Christ" in any of his doctrine. Never, not once. When Jesus asked His disciples to "follow" Him, He literally meant it. If Jesus went to Capernaum, they followed Him. The term "follow Christ" today has been redefined into some ambigous phrase that has no clear definition or connection to the scripture. What most people mean by this phrase is that they will attempt to conform to some method of religious practice. I will pray, read my bible, tithe, not cuss, not drink, get water baptized, etc. etc. Paul is the ONLY person God chose to scripturally unpack and expound upon the doctrine of justification by faith, and it is no accident that he never uses the phrase 'follow Christ' when explaining one's personal salvation.

As you wrote this, it appears you do not understand what I am saying: Of COURSE salvation depends upon the OBJECT (Jesus!) of one's faith. But there is no doubt mere intellectual belief that God or Christ exist that many unsaved people undoubtedly have, but their belief in him is a self-made construct, not saved belief in the Living God. Yes, it's faith in Jesus, PERIOD! And that was exactly my point. And however you want to phrase it, one must RECEIVE Christ and not reject Him. RECEIVING has nothing to do with one bringing ANYTHING to the table, as God makes all of that possible, but we CAN reject Him. Does God or does He not require from us belief and faith? And so the question is, that "god" one has faith in, is He THE GOD (Christ) or a false one of their own construct? Clearly, you guys did not understand what I meant by attempting to show that one can believe God exists but that it irrelevant to them. But also, the way jlay phrases it, it almost sounds like he is denying ALL must accept and receive what they cannot in ANY way do - which might be I once mistook how he phrased something for defending Reformed Theology, to deny that God does have a requirement for man (faith in Christ!) that is impossible for that man (because GOD makes that impossible, per the Five Pointers).

[PaulSacramento]

And as to your last comments, when Jesus said they lost their faith, He meant exactly that. They stopped trusting in Him. They stopped placing their faith in Him. It's the same thing the author of Hebrews was talking about with his book. Needless to say, that doesn't mean they never believed (if that were the case, then Jesus is just contradicting Himself). Still less does it mean that they lost their salvation. It just means that they don't produce fruit. And what is the "crop" they produce? Good works (so Eph 2:10). And from that it is clear that good works are the result of abiding in faith (which Jesus says explicitly in John 15). They are not the necessary result of placing your faith in Christ for salvation, since, per Jesus' own remarks, we may not abide in faith after all (which is also explicitly said in John 15).

On your view, people who reject Christ after becoming a Christian, and even vehemently attack Christianity are saved.
Even the likes of Hitler if he believed in Christ cannot undo his being saved.
There is no way one can reject Christ if they believed, even if they no longer want anything to do with God.
I can't accept that view.

Does someone like Hitler deserve less grace than someone else? Being consistent, are you saying that the likes of King David aren't saved either?

Did Hitler not blasphemy the HS?
Is that not a sin from which there is no being saved?

I have no idea if Hitler blasphemed the HS. Why do you say that?

To blasphemy the HS is to reject Christ, to reject Christ and persecute those that believe is to blasphemy the HS.
For that to happen one must know Christ or at least be aware/accept His existence AND then reject/turn on Christ.
He even tried to pass off his regime as a Christian one at one point, even trying to justify his genocide of the jews because of it.