Faith and works

[PaulSacramento]

I think we need to remember that it is not JUST the belief IN Christ, it is the belief in WHAT Christ has done for us.
As the saying goes, even the demons believe ( In God) and shudder but that doesn't mean they are saved.

[jlay]

I think we need to remember that it is not JUST the belief IN Christ, it is the belief in WHAT Christ has done for us.
As the saying goes, even the demons believe ( In God) and shudder but that doesn't mean they are saved.

Paul,

This is a great point. I think that is why it is important to emphasize that we "believe" the Gospel.
The apostle Paul summarized the Gospel thus, Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. That He was buried, that He was raised the 3rd day, according to the scriptures. There is certainly more here than believing that some concept of God exists, or that a man named Jesus lived. Jac was right on target when he emphazied pisteuo to mean, "entrusting." In this case we are entrusting ourselves, as sinners, to the death and resurrection of Jesus.

John says it this way. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name." (John 1:12)
We don't think much about that term 'name' today, but it has a significant meaning in this context. One's name conveys their nature and character.
How do we receive Christ? By believing on His name. The Gospel embodies the 'name' of Jesus.

So again, it is not a matter of the type of faith, but who/what we are believing (entrusting). One can not divide Jesus from the Gospel and expect salvation. That is to defile His "name," and reject His message. (John 5:24) The best example I can think of this is Thomas Jefferson who picked what he wanted to beleive about Jesus, which of course made the Gospel of no effect since he rejected the miracles, one of which was the resurrection.

[jlay]

jlay: Philip,
There is not a "mere" believe. This is a modern concept of 'faith' that is not found in the Bible. Many use the terms, spurious faith, or genuine faith. I've been guilty of this as well. What really effects salvation is the object of faith. Scripture says that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation, for those who beleive. Belief/Faith is the means by which we appropiate, but faith itself isn't a mystical or magical force or commodity. You won't find such definitions of faith in the Bible. Further, salvation is for man, not for Satan or his angels. They are incapable of entrusting themselves to the Gospel because the Gospel is not a message for them.
What does, "a sincere desire to follow Christ" mean to a lost person? That sounds an awful lot like a committment. If salvation requires a committment then it is a bi-lateral contract and is contingent on both parties fulfilling their obligations. Thus, this means that one is contributing to their salvation. Paul never mentions the term "follow Christ" in any of his doctrine. Never, not once. When Jesus asked His disciples to "follow" Him, He literally meant it. If Jesus went to Capernaum, they followed Him. The term "follow Christ" today has been redefined into some ambigous phrase that has no clear definition or connection to the scripture. What most people mean by this phrase is that they will attempt to conform to some method of religious practice. I will pray, read my bible, tithe, not cuss, not drink, get water baptized, etc. etc. Paul is the ONLY person God chose to scripturally unpack and expound upon the doctrine of justification by faith, and it is no accident that he never uses the phrase 'follow Christ' when explaining one's personal salvation.

As you wrote this, it appears you do not understand what I am saying: Of COURSE salvation depends upon the OBJECT (Jesus!) of one's faith. But there is no doubt mere intellectual belief that God or Christ exist that many unsaved people undoubtedly have, but their belief in him is a self-made construct, not saved belief in the Living God. Yes, it's faith in Jesus, PERIOD! And that was exactly my point. And however you want to phrase it, one must RECEIVE Christ and not reject Him. RECEIVING has nothing to do with one bringing ANYTHING to the table, as God makes all of that possible, but we CAN reject Him. Does God or does He not require from us belief and faith? And so the question is, that "god" one has faith in, is He THE GOD (Christ) or a false one of their own construct? Clearly, you guys did not understand what I meant by attempting to show that one can believe God exists but that it irrelevant to them. But also, the way jlay phrases it, it almost sounds like he is denying ALL must accept and receive what they cannot in ANY way do - which might be I once mistook how he phrased something for defending Reformed Theology, to deny that God does have a requirement for man (faith in Christ!) that is impossible for that man (because GOD makes that impossible, per the Five Pointers).

Sorry for any misundertanding. As I stated in response to Paul, it is about believing the Gospel, which resolves all these isses you mention. One receives Christ by believing the Gospel, period. Not by committing to follow Christ, asking Jesus into their heart, or any other extra-biblical requirement. In your post you clearly contrasted 'mere faith' with, "a saving faith, trust and sincere desire to follow Christ." If I'm off track can you please define exactly what you mean here?

It is also wrong to present faith as a 'requirement,' at least in this sense. (Yes, belief is 'required' for salvation. And yes, I believe it is volitional.) Paul emphasizes this point in Romans 4:5. The Gospel is not something to do, but something to believe. And belief is not something you make yourself do. You are either convinced that something is true, or you are not. Now, people can willingly suppress the truth, which of course is a form of unbelief. So, yes, we can reject God, and we can reject the Gospel. I'm certainly not disputing that. People can deny the truth to their own destruction. Hell, we see people do this all the time with smoking, drug abuse and other behaviors. I have a friend at work that smokes. Sometimes I'll joke with them and ask to see their cigarettes. I'll read the warning out loud and then look at them surprised, and ask, "Do you not believe that?" Of course they believe that smoking is hazardous to their health, but they do it anyway. Anyway, i think it's better than telling them they ought to quit smoking.

[Philip]

jlay: Sorry for any misundertanding. As I stated in response to Paul, it is about believing the Gospel, which resolves all these isses you mention. One receives Christ by believing the Gospel, period. Not by committing to follow Christ, asking Jesus into their heart, or any other extra-biblical requirement. In your post you clearly contrasted 'mere faith' with, "a saving faith, trust and sincere desire to follow Christ." If I'm off track can you please define exactly what you mean here?

Jlay, I see nothing you wrote that I do not agree with, it's just a matter of me perhaps illustrating a point with less than optimum language. Yep, there is only ONE kind of faith. Actually, how this is worded can be tricky. I do not believe in Lordship Salvation or a laundry list of ANY things we do and only one that we must HAVE (faith!). However, I well realize that unbelievers can think we're talking about something they must DO as opposed to have (Faith! And in their heart and mind, a matter of the will lining up with God's will, as to the matter of faith). I have really run into this misperception (of thinking salvation is something you must DO, as opposed to GIVEN you based upon your belief and faith in Christ). I've especially found this exceptionally dangerous to Catholics (those of them who are not Christians) who consider themselves Christians by infant baptism and later confirmation, as if they just "say the prayer and follow the pamplet," and so now they are "in like Flynn!" My MIL is definitely in this category, and her evangelical son appears to believe she is saved based upon his "successful" utilizing the Four Spiritual Laws approach. And while I can't see her heart, I am very suspect that she viewed it as anything more than just the remaining religious thing that she had not yet finalized on her checklist, and that now "it's all good."

[LittleHamster]

I should mention that the mechanism for Salvation involves god (the son) working in coordination with holy spirit. (A spiritual change then occurs in that person - which he will interpret in different ways).

Belief/faith is what triggers that mechanism into action. A certain threshold of belief is need to activate the trigger. Walking down the street saying "I sort of believe in Jesus" probably wont work. You might need to squeeze the trigger a bit harder.

Of course, there is always the holy spirit's assistance working in the background, i.e., when people receive their calling - but that is another topic I guess.

edit: and there are exceptions too - like some who are born spiritually conscious of God (at a very early age) and already know their purpose in life (I digress)

[Kurieuo]

Furthermore, if what one embraces is simple belief, an intellectual assent... then it logically follows that someone could unwittingly be saved without choice.
So, if someone happens to "believe" Christ died for them, for all, and yet wanted nothing to do with it. Well, they're "saved".
This is nothing short of divine rape in my opinion -- someone being forced to be with God for all eternity who absolutely despises Him.

Trusting in who Christ is and what he has done for salvation, has to be deliberate.

And what does it mean to be "deliberate" about "trusting in who Christ is and what he has done for salvation"?

I'm just trying getting to the heart of "belief" here. (if you get my pun)

[Kurieuo]

K wrote:
What I am saying isn't just a sinner receiving God's grace.
But, someone who having found it rejects it and tramples it under foot. Purposefully.
For whatever reasons they want nothing to do with God or Christ any more.
And yet, you want them to be trapped into being with God for all eternity because once upon a time they "believed"?

How many of us don't sin purposefully at all? I know how much sin hurts me and everyone around me. Yet I still sin.

I hear what you're saying K. But I don't really see being with God eternally, as trapped. We are all weak. And I pray to God that nothing ever happens to me that makes me want to curse or reject God. But I'm so thankful that if I do ever reject Him, He won't ever reject me. That's God's amazing grace!
As much as I don't deserve eternal life, God has given it to me anyways!!!

If you do reject God, let's hope that the lush green grass isn't as hard as diamonds to you (as CS Lewis conceived in The Great Divorce).
For if it is, you won't be thankful but rather more spiteful that God forcibly married himself to you via Christ.

[RickD]

Furthermore, if what one embraces is simple belief, an intellectual assent... then it logically follows that someone could unwittingly be saved without choice.
So, if someone happens to "believe" Christ died for them, for all, and yet wanted nothing to do with it. Well, they're "saved".
This is nothing short of divine rape in my opinion -- someone being forced to be with God for all eternity who absolutely despises Him.

Trusting in who Christ is and what he has done for salvation, has to be deliberate.

And what does it mean to be "deliberate" about "trusting in who Christ is and what he has done for salvation"?

I'm just trying getting to the heart of "belief" here. (if you get my pun)

I was just trying to say that I don't think someone could unwittingly be saved. We have to choose to trust Christ, don't we?

[RickD]

K wrote:
What I am saying isn't just a sinner receiving God's grace.
But, someone who having found it rejects it and tramples it under foot. Purposefully.
For whatever reasons they want nothing to do with God or Christ any more.
And yet, you want them to be trapped into being with God for all eternity because once upon a time they "believed"?

How many of us don't sin purposefully at all? I know how much sin hurts me and everyone around me. Yet I still sin.

I hear what you're saying K. But I don't really see being with God eternally, as trapped. We are all weak. And I pray to God that nothing ever happens to me that makes me want to curse or reject God. But I'm so thankful that if I do ever reject Him, He won't ever reject me. That's God's amazing grace!
As much as I don't deserve eternal life, God has given it to me anyways!!!

If you do reject God, let's hope that the lush green grass isn't as hard as diamonds to you (as CS Lewis conceived in The Great Divorce).
For if it is, you won't be thankful but rather more spiteful that God forcibly married himself to you via Christ.

Sorry. Since I'm not at all familiar with Lewis, that went completely over my head.

[Kurieuo]

Furthermore, if what one embraces is simple belief, an intellectual assent... then it logically follows that someone could unwittingly be saved without choice.
So, if someone happens to "believe" Christ died for them, for all, and yet wanted nothing to do with it. Well, they're "saved".
This is nothing short of divine rape in my opinion -- someone being forced to be with God for all eternity who absolutely despises Him.

Trusting in who Christ is and what he has done for salvation, has to be deliberate.

And what does it mean to be "deliberate" about "trusting in who Christ is and what he has done for salvation"?

I'm just trying getting to the heart of "belief" here. (if you get my pun)

I was just trying to say that I don't think someone could unwittingly be saved. We have to choose to trust Christ, don't we?

Rick, not really trying to get at anything with you. Really.
But, I think if you unpack that, you could get accused of adding to the Gospel.

[Kurieuo]

K wrote:
What I am saying isn't just a sinner receiving God's grace.
But, someone who having found it rejects it and tramples it under foot. Purposefully.
For whatever reasons they want nothing to do with God or Christ any more.
And yet, you want them to be trapped into being with God for all eternity because once upon a time they "believed"?

How many of us don't sin purposefully at all? I know how much sin hurts me and everyone around me. Yet I still sin.

I hear what you're saying K. But I don't really see being with God eternally, as trapped. We are all weak. And I pray to God that nothing ever happens to me that makes me want to curse or reject God. But I'm so thankful that if I do ever reject Him, He won't ever reject me. That's God's amazing grace!
As much as I don't deserve eternal life, God has given it to me anyways!!!

If you do reject God, let's hope that the lush green grass isn't as hard as diamonds to you (as CS Lewis conceived in The Great Divorce).
For if it is, you won't be thankful but rather more spiteful that God forcibly married himself to you via Christ.

Sorry. Since I'm not at all familiar with Lewis, that went completely over my head.

Take a read of the book, it's one full of allegory that stuck with me.

Basically, to some who had died, the grass was like sharp diamonds piercing the feet.
You know, in another thread, I mentioned apparently akin to Aquinas that when we die our decisions are cemented in. There is no more changing.
That idea, in large part, came from CS Lewis' book here.

Those who have died, cannot stand heaven or God.
My take from it, and other apologists like Geisler have suggested it, is that if one rejects Christ, then to be in the presence of God would be an absolute hell.
So far from it being loving of God to force someone who rejects Him to be with Him, it could actually be considered an act of hate -- a divine rape that doesn't respect our freedom.
Therefore, Hell is a necessity. It allows God to withdraw Himself in some sense, allow people their freedom to keep their distance from God.

The conundrum I see with Jac's theology, is that God is forces to essentially "rape" people into being with Him.
This is why I can't accept his "free grace" because it denies people their free choices. So much for "grace".

If you want "free grace" you can't get much more free than God forgave us even while we were sinners (via Christ).
Therefore ALL are forgiven, regardless of whether or not we believe.
Many will deny that. It's often taught that we must ask for forgiveness before being forgiven.
Which contradicts the story of the prodigal son, who was long forgiven before returning home...
It's just forgiveness, in order to be received, one must return.
And that is via Christ.

Anyway, I do have reservations with Jac's theology.
We've discussed much in the past. The thread I referred to earlier covers much.
But, if you're going to embrace it, then there are other issues that crop up -- some of which I've obviously been prodding.

However, it's all good. I really don't think it matters in the scheme of things.
Belief, or heart response the final outcome of which is "belief" -- it is much the same end really imo.

[RickD]

PaulS wrote:

Did Hitler not blasphemy the HS?
Is that not a sin from which there is no being saved?

RickD wrote:I have no idea if Hitler blasphemed the HS. Why do you say that?

PaulS wrote:
To blasphemy the HS is to reject Christ, to reject Christ and persecute those that believe is to blasphemy the HS.
For that to happen one must know Christ or at least be aware/accept His existence AND then reject/turn on Christ.
He even tried to pass off his regime as a Christian one at one point, even trying to justify his genocide of the jews because of it.

Paul,

I don't think that's what blaspheming the Holy Spirit is. I could be wrong, but I would think blaspheming the Holy Spirit is constant unbelief. Always rejecting Christ. Never having trusted him. I think this link makes sense:
http://www.gotquestions.org/blasphemy-Holy-Spirit.html

The blasphemy of the Spirit today, which is the same as the unpardonable sin, is the state of continued unbelief. There is no pardon for a person who dies in unbelief. Continual rejection of the Holy Spirit’s promptings to trust in Jesus Christ is the unpardonable blasphemy against Him. Remember what is stated in John 3:16: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” Further on in the same chapter is the verse “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him” (John 3:36). The only condition wherein someone would have no forgiveness is if he is not among the “whoever believes in Him,” for it is he who “rejects the Son.”

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/blasphemy-H ... z3LaM8caOM

And since the hypothetical argument is that if someone such as Hitler believed on Christ and has eternal life, could he do anything to lose eternal life? I would say no. Or it wouldn't be eternal. And also, that would make God's promise subject to our performance.

[RickD]

Furthermore, if what one embraces is simple belief, an intellectual assent... then it logically follows that someone could unwittingly be saved without choice.
So, if someone happens to "believe" Christ died for them, for all, and yet wanted nothing to do with it. Well, they're "saved".
This is nothing short of divine rape in my opinion -- someone being forced to be with God for all eternity who absolutely despises Him.

Trusting in who Christ is and what he has done for salvation, has to be deliberate.

And what does it mean to be "deliberate" about "trusting in who Christ is and what he has done for salvation"?

I'm just trying getting to the heart of "belief" here. (if you get my pun)

I was just trying to say that I don't think someone could unwittingly be saved. We have to choose to trust Christ, don't we?

Rick, not really trying to get at anything with you. Really.
But, I think if you unpack that, you could get accused of adding to the Gospel.

How so?

[RickD]

K wrote:
Those who have died, cannot stand heaven or God.
My take from it, and other apologists like Geisler have suggested it, is that if one rejects Christ, then to be in the presence of God would be an absolute hell.
So far from it being loving of God to force someone who rejects Him to be with Him, it could actually be considered an act of hate -- a divine rape that doesn't respect our freedom.
Therefore, Hell is a necessity. It allows God to withdraw Himself in some sense, allow people their freedom to keep their distance from God.

I agree if one has always rejected Christ. But if one has eternal life after trusting Christ, then it's not the same. Unless you don't hold to assurance. Then I think you'd have much bigger problems.

I see it this way. We don't gain or lose salvation because of our sin. So once we have eternal life, we can't lose it because of our sin. And if a believer goes through something that causes him to reject God, that would be a sin. But sinning can't cause us to lose eternal life.
Unless you're trying to make the argument like PaulS is, that a believer rejecting Christ is the unpardonable sin.

The conundrum I see with Jac's theology, is that God is forces to essentially "rape" people into being with Him.
This is why I can't accept his "free grace" because it denies people their free choices. So much for "grace".

On the flip side, you are rejecting assurance of a believer. And you're saying our keeping salvation is based on our performance, or our lack of committing sins.

And I'd much rather trust that God will keep me secure, than I will keep myself saved.

[PaulSacramento]

K wrote:
What I am saying isn't just a sinner receiving God's grace.
But, someone who having found it rejects it and tramples it under foot. Purposefully.
For whatever reasons they want nothing to do with God or Christ any more.
And yet, you want them to be trapped into being with God for all eternity because once upon a time they "believed"?

How many of us don't sin purposefully at all? I know how much sin hurts me and everyone around me. Yet I still sin.

I hear what you're saying K. But I don't really see being with God eternally, as trapped. We are all weak. And I pray to God that nothing ever happens to me that makes me want to curse or reject God. But I'm so thankful that if I do ever reject Him, He won't ever reject me. That's God's amazing grace!
As much as I don't deserve eternal life, God has given it to me anyways!!!

If you do reject God, let's hope that the lush green grass isn't as hard as diamonds to you (as CS Lewis conceived in The Great Divorce).
For if it is, you won't be thankful but rather more spiteful that God forcibly married himself to you via Christ.

Sorry. Since I'm not at all familiar with Lewis, that went completely over my head.

You should read him Rick, he is very good.