Faith and works

[RickD]

Rick: What I've been saying, is that it's possible for someone who trusted Christ, and therefore has eternal life, to curse God and even claim to be an atheist, without losing eternal life!!!!

I'll say this, discussing theoreticals are interesting, but I'd say this belief is very much theoretical. I can say that I've never seen such a person, with God's Spirit inside, deny Him. And, if possible, one could never know that this person is actually a Christian. So it's a pointless conjecture. It would also seem to conflict with Scriptures such as Luke 6 and the type of tree and its fruit. Yes, the initial context is about teachers, but it seems to be applicable beyond that. And what of Matthew 10:33 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ESV)?

Rick addressing Paul: Now you're saying that if one who has eternal life stops believing in Christ, then one is then not saved. That would mean eternal life is not eternal, but temporary.

Perhaps this is not so much of a COULD this be possible, but WOULD this ever happen.

I agree.

[LittleHamster]

Rick: What I've been saying, is that it's possible for someone who trusted Christ, and therefore has eternal life, to curse God and even claim to be an atheist, without losing eternal life!!!!

I'll say this, discussing theoreticals are interesting, but I'd say this belief is very much theoretical. I can say that I've never seen such a person, with God's Spirit inside, deny Him. And, if possible, one could never know that this person is actually a Christian. So it's a pointless conjecture. It would also seem to conflict with Scriptures such as Luke 6 and the type of tree and its fruit. Yes, the initial context is about teachers, but it seems to be applicable beyond that. And what of Matthew 10:33 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=ESV)?

Rick addressing Paul: Now you're saying that if one who has eternal life stops believing in Christ, then one is then not saved. That would mean eternal life is not eternal, but temporary.

Perhaps this is not so much of a COULD this be possible, but WOULD this ever happen.

I agree.

Ok, ok. I got to mention Judas somewhere in this discussion. He was a follower of Christ (Literally !). Then Satan got hold of him, he sold out J.C. and got himself condemned and committed suicide. It didn't sound like he was saved in the end but who really knows ?

[B. W.]

The questions comes...

Can a Christian love darkness more than light? The answer is yes, and their life will be miserable. People are comfortable living in darkness as they know what to expect and have a sense of security in feeling rejected, or living in abuse. Institutionalized to darkness is a better way to put it so much that living in the freedom of Christ's light is an unknown so they draw back to their darkness - intellectual pride, abuse, gossip, sabotaging relationships, cursing others and self, salved to feel inferior is all very comfortable and knowable despite hating it, they are comfortable in it and share their misery with others. Men and women love darkness more than light.

The light is frightening as it sets forth before them an unknown and that unknown is feared so they never find their life changed by the freedom Christ brings. Their darkness and personal demons are at least know and living in misery or pride gives them a sense of feeling important no matter how negative it is. John 3:19 is true. Does this make such not Christians? IMHO the answer is no. God will keep working on them and reminding them their prison doors are no longer there. They need not fear the light of the Lord and the new life it brings. Another reason folks like darkness is that Light's freedom is an unknown to them. They know nothing about it and cannot imagine freedom is at all. They are afraid to change because the cannot conceive of what true freedom of Christ would be like.

God will work out their issues in due time. Seen it too many times. I have seen people turn away from God and then later return.

Point is, that sad state of the modern Church is this, no one can tell a true christian anyone by anything. The world mocks and we debate hypothetical strawmen. Such love of darkness...

I enjoy the freedom Christ brings. I cannot explain it but it sure feels good. This light changes my character and life. With that I am content and at rest in the Lord. Am I perfectly perfect - NO. However I am not afraid to walk in the light of God and be changed so much that I no longer make excuses so I do not have to change any darkness I may cling too. I see and hear too many Christians making excuses to justify that there is no change in one's character for the better needs evidenced to be a believer in Christ. Then I hear the world mock us. Shame...

Yes, John 3:19 hits it out of the park - people just love darkness more than light...

I am rambling so I'll stop...

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[LittleHamster]

The questions comes...

Can a Christian love darkness more than light? The answer is yes, and their life will be miserable. People are comfortable living in darkness as they know what to expect and have a sense of security in feeling rejected, or living in abuse. Institutionalized to darkness is a better way to put it so much that living in the freedom of Christ's light is an unknown so they draw back to their darkness - intellectual pride, abuse, gossip, sabotaging relationships, cursing others and self, salved to feel inferior is all very comfortable and knowable despite hating it, they are comfortable in it and share their misery with others. Men and women love darkness more than light.

The light is frightening as it sets forth before them an unknown and that unknown is feared so they never find their life changed by the freedom Christ brings. Their darkness and personal demons are at least know and living in misery or pride gives them a sense of feeling important no matter how negative it is. John 3:19 is true. Does this make such not Christians? IMHO the answer is no. God will keep working on them and reminding them their prison doors are no longer there. They need not fear the light of the Lord and the new life it brings. Another reason folks like darkness is that Light's freedom is an unknown to them. They know nothing about it and cannot imagine freedom is at all. They are afraid to change because the cannot conceive of what true freedom of Christ would be like.

God will work out their issues in due time. Seen it too many times. I have seen people turn away from God and then later return.

Point is, that sad state of the modern Church is this, no one can tell a true christian anyone by anything. The world mocks and we debate hypothetical strawmen. Such love of darkness...

I enjoy the freedom Christ brings. I cannot explain it but it sure feels good. This light changes my character and life. With that I am content and at rest in the Lord. Am I perfectly perfect - NO. However I am not afraid to walk in the light of God and be changed so much that I no longer make excuses so I do not have to change any darkness I may cling too. I see and hear too many Christians making excuses to justify that there is no change in one's character for the better needs evidenced to be a believer in Christ. Then I hear the world mock us. Shame...

Yes, John 3:19 hits it out of the park - people just love darkness more than light...

I am rambling so I'll stop...

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Please don't stop, I like your rambling B.W. !

[Nicki]

It's been hard to keep up with this thread and have time to post something as well! It seems to have turned more to the question of eternal security. I had my eyes opened a bit a few pages back - not sure who posted it but it was about 'faith without works is dead'. The poster said someone's faith without works might be dead but they would still be saved if they had had faith in Jesus. I had tended to interpret the verse as saying dead faith is no good, and since I always assumed one could become a non-Christian and give up their salvation I thought faith without works could show that one did not really have faith and was not actually saved. I'm still not completely convinced about eternal security, though - I don't think losing or giving up eternal life shows that it's temporary rather than eternal. At any time in our lives we either have eternal life (stretching forward into heaven) or we don't; we may have temporarily had it but that doesn't mean it was temporary itself. And although our salvation is of God and not ourselves it's conditional on our having faith and accepting it; why should it not continue to be conditional on our faith?

Returning to faith and works, what about where Jesus says that every branch that does not bear fruit his Father will cut off and throw into the fire? I don't remember this scripture being discussed here before - it's always made me squeamish.

[Philip]

And although our salvation is of God and not ourselves it's conditional on our having faith and accepting it; why should it not continue to be conditional on our faith?

I think we absolutely must separate the free OFFER of salvation and our key to that (believe, have faith) from the actual salvation - which is GOD-provided and eternal. Because, otherwise, this automatically means we have a "Jesus-plus" situation. That is, while faith in Christ, the OBJECT of our faith, is through whom we are ultimately saved, but we're to believe that our salvation is ALSO dependent upon OUR ability to maintain it, to not lose our way - EVER? If so, how could the Apostle Paul ever state that he is "sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ"? Because IF such completion is based upon OUR sin-filled, mortal ability to maintain it, I would think Paul wouldn't have ANY confidence of this being true. Really, how COULD he?

[melanie]

The questions comes...

Can a Christian love darkness more than light? The answer is yes, and their life will be miserable. People are comfortable living in darkness as they know what to expect and have a sense of security in feeling rejected, or living in abuse. Institutionalized to darkness is a better way to put it so much that living in the freedom of Christ's light is an unknown so they draw back to their darkness - intellectual pride, abuse, gossip, sabotaging relationships, cursing others and self, salved to feel inferior is all very comfortable and knowable despite hating it, they are comfortable in it and share their misery with others. Men and women love darkness more than light.

The light is frightening as it sets forth before them an unknown and that unknown is feared so they never find their life changed by the freedom Christ brings. Their darkness and personal demons are at least know and living in misery or pride gives them a sense of feeling important no matter how negative it is. John 3:19 is true. Does this make such not Christians? IMHO the answer is no. God will keep working on them and reminding them their prison doors are no longer there. They need not fear the light of the Lord and the new life it brings. Another reason folks like darkness is that Light's freedom is an unknown to them. They know nothing about it and cannot imagine freedom is at all. They are afraid to change because the cannot conceive of what true freedom of Christ would be like.

God will work out their issues in due time. Seen it too many times. I have seen people turn away from God and then later return.

Point is, that sad state of the modern Church is this, no one can tell a true christian anyone by anything. The world mocks and we debate hypothetical strawmen. Such love of darkness...

I enjoy the freedom Christ brings. I cannot explain it but it sure feels good. This light changes my character and life. With that I am content and at rest in the Lord. Am I perfectly perfect - NO. However I am not afraid to walk in the light of God and be changed so much that I no longer make excuses so I do not have to change any darkness I may cling too. I see and hear too many Christians making excuses to justify that there is no change in one's character for the better needs evidenced to be a believer in Christ. Then I hear the world mock us. Shame...

Yes, John 3:19 hits it out of the park - people just love darkness more than light...

I am rambling so I'll stop...

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Please don't stop, I like your rambling B.W. !

I like B.W's ramblings also. You cut straight to the heart of it B.W
Thank you

[PaulSacramento]

PaulS wrote:
I just wanna be clear but you believe that the moment a person believes in Christ and ALL that means of course ( not just in Him but ALL He has done, including the resurrection and so forth), they are saved REGARDLESS if they then CHOOSE to NOT believe and even actively go against Christ?

Hypothetically, yes. Is it ever going to happen that way? I don't know. But like I said, if I believe something, I need to take it to its logical conclusion. So again, it's a hypothetical.

I believe God woos or calls us back to Him when we stray from Him. My life is an example of that. There are things that I have gone through in the past, that have caused me to "turn my back on God", so to speak.

And I think what jlay said is important too. If someone says they used to be a Christian, we can ask them some simple questions to see if they really trusted Christ. Or if they were a carnal Christian, like someone who claimed to follow Christ, but never actually trusted Christ for salvation.

Do you see what I'm saying?

The problem is that I know some people like that, people that have chosen to go against Christ and God even accepting that they MAY exist and stating:
"IF a God like that exists then He is NOT deserving or worship and we should do everything possible to get people away from Him".

[Jac3510]

So do I, Paul. And I'm thankful that at least I have an assurance of their salvation. After all, if someone who was as devout as the young man I'm thinking of lost his faith, who am I to think that I couldn't, also, given the right (or wrong, as the case may be) circumstances? It would be a mark of pride to pretend that I could not somehow fall into the sin of apostasy. So I am doubly thankful for my friend's salvation: first, that even in his apostasy, he is saved--and for that, I give God glory as I know I'll see him again in heaven forever--and second, for my own assurance, that even if I were to fall into such a terrible sin, even I would be saved, and that gives me a peace through which to love God unconditionally even today. God's grace is truly great!

[PaulSacramento]

So do I, Paul. And I'm thankful that at least I have an assurance of their salvation. After all, if someone who was as devout as the young man I'm thinking of lost his faith, who am I to think that I couldn't, also, given the right (or wrong, as the case may be) circumstances? It would be a mark of pride to pretend that I could not somehow fall into the sin of apostasy. So I am doubly thankful for my friend's salvation: first, that even in his apostasy, he is saved--and for that, I give God glory as I know I'll see him again in heaven forever--and second, for my own assurance, that even if I were to fall into such a terrible sin, even I would be saved, and that gives me a peace through which to love God unconditionally even today. God's grace is truly great!

That is a beautiful thought and I HOPE you are right.
IMO, they have been so scarred by a false gospel that they turn on the one person that CAN help them.
I know that God judges based on intent, that He KNOWS why people turn from Him and they Hi love for those that are His is eternal and everlasting and that HE will not turn away on any of those that are His.
BUT I also know that at one point God does say to Us:
Thy will be done.

[Jac3510]

Sure, Paul. I "hope" I'm right, too, in exactly the same sense that I hope I'm right that Jesus really rose from the dead or that salvation is not by works or that if I confess my sins God is faithful and just to forgive me and cleanse me from all unrighteousness.

In other words, I'm just saying what Jesus said. And, in this case, I'm insisting I don't say what Jesus didn't. Jesus did not say that whoever believes and doesn't later deny Him has everlasting life. He said that whoever believes has (present tense!) everlasting life. And if my friend could lose his everlasting life by his apostasy, then it would seem to me that the life he had was not everlasting. In fact, I would say that it is a contradiction in terms to say that a person "had" (past tense) everlasting life, just as much as it is a contradiction in terms to speak of a four-sided triangle.

So, look, I hope that your apostate friends believed the gospel. I hoped that they trusted Jesus for their salvation, believing that He was the Christ, the Son of God. If so, then I have no doubt that they are saved, because I have no doubt that God is merciful and faithful to Himself and His own promise. Granted, their apostasy is a terrible sin, and like all sin, it is one that deserves eternal judgment. But I also know that ALL sin was paid for at the Cross, so whether they deserve salvation or hell isn't even on the table.

And that, by the way, is what bothers me so much about this whole question. It seems to suggest that Jesus didn't really pay the price for ALL sin--that there are some sins that Jesus didn't really pay for, that His sacrifice was insufficient for. Apparently, Jesus' blood isn't strong enough to cover apostasy (so say some!). And that's just terrible. So I would say to those who think that people can lose their salvation or that they can "give it back" to stop questioning the grace of God and stop besmirching the work of the Cross. ALL sin was covered in that moment in time. THAT is the kind of God we serve. To say any less is to speak ill of the greatest work and mercy that God has ever done or ever will do.

edit:

And re: "Thy will be done," I appreciate the statement. I've used it myself. C. S. Lewis is, obviously, an influential writer. But, frankly, I don't believe that anymore. God's will is always done. And besides, He is merciful, don't you think? When your friends rise from the dead and they look upon God, when they see the purity of His goodness, they will have nothing but a longing for Him and a very, very, very deep shame at their sin. The only reason even in this life that people are not ashamed of their sin is because they hide from the Light. But when they stand in that Light for all of its spendor, they will see clearly, not as through a glass. And in that moment, do you think they would will to hate God? No, they will long for Him, despite their shame. And God can, in that moment, choose to forgive them (again), by the Cross, of course, and wipe away those tears and usher His prodigal children into eternal bliss, or He can wag His finger at them and tell them that they didn't do good enough for heaven after all . . . and why? Because in this life, they were blinded by the enemy and rejected their Savior. (All that, by the way, is why the "divine rape" argument fails; besides, I hope you can see how terrible crass and unchariable it is to compare Divine Mercy and Love with rape. Grace is about the happiness and goodness of its object. Rape is about using its object for its own perverse satisfaction, and to accuse God of the latter strikes me as unbecoming at the least, to put it charitably!)

No, in that moment, they will not will Hell. The question is what God will will, and I believe that He wil will their salvation, and I believe that because He has already done so. And God is not a God who changes His mind . . . as if He realized He somehow made a mistake . . .

[Kurieuo]

I think the thought that those who vehemently reject Christ are saved, just because they once believed in Christ, renders almost meaningless our lives and identities formed -- who we are.

I'd be interested to know your thoughts Jac, on what remains of a person who "once was" Christian in God's kingdom.
That is, a person who trusted in Christ and then by the end of their lives entirely opposed to God and anti-Christ (and for good measure, let's throw in even sanctioning the death of many including Christians).
If you agree with me, after to a degree Aquinas, that when we die who we are is kind of cemented in like the angels, then WHO exactly is being saved from eternal damnation and given eternal life? What kind of person is this?
Is it someone who forever hates God? Or someone whose actual person and free thinking is burnt off by God so that they can be absorbed into some Borg-like collective that is Divine and apparently good and loving?

Maybe I'm the only one seeing it this way. There are many bright people here to give me pause.
But, there just seems to be something odd going on in a picture where one in unable to reject Christ after having once believed.
Particularly how such a person fits into God's kingdom with those whose hearts desire and willingly love God, Christ and each other.

[PaulSacramento]

Jac, I do believe God is merciful.
But I also believe that God respects the very free will He has given us.
I also believe that God does NOT force Himself or His Salvation on anyone that CHOOSES not to want it.
We KNOW there is a sin that unforgivable, we know there is a kin that kills the spirit.
This really have nothing to with a believer deserving salvation or anything like that.
It doesn't even have anything to do was assured salvation.

God states that ALL that BELIEVE in Jesus are saved, which means those that do NOT will be judged according to their works ( As per John 5: 24-29 ).
I don't think that God removes the possibility of salvation from ANYONE that does not believe.
I believe that they (non-believers) will be judged by their works and I think that the passages in John are the only ones that give that message explicitly:

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

And continues in regards to all others:

28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

And what is the "good" that is to be "done"?

To believe in Christ.

IMO, it seems that one who has believed ( to what extent only God knows) and then chooses not to believe ( why and to what extend only God knows), will be judged by his works.

[Kurieuo]

I agree with PaulS.
I think it comes down to WHO the person actually is and God's respecting our decisions.
Our difference of opinion seems to largely be on this point I think.

The way I see it, there is a reason why God withdraws Himself from this world and doesn't intervene.
God wants to give us the most free decision possible to either deny Him (and as such also love Him).
If God were present and made Himself known, then none of us would be truly free to deny Him.

If God could just show Himself and then everyone would just melt and want to be with God (which mind you the angels didn't!),
then this seems to beg the question as to why God created this world of ours in the first place.
Why does God allow all the evils within it to go unchecked, if there is no real benefit to it all?
Why is it that God desires to refine us as pure gold in life, if this can be had in the instant God reveals Himself?
It just seems a little meaningless if in the end who we have become isn't given much respect whether ex-Christian, Christian or never Christian.

[PaulSacramento]

I agree with PaulS.
I think it comes down to WHO the person actually is and God's respecting our decisions.
Our difference of opinion seems to largely be on this point I think.

The way I see it, there is a reason why God withdraws Himself from this world and doesn't intervene.
God wants to give us the most free decision possible to either deny Him (and as such also love Him).
If God were present and made Himself known, then none of us would be truly free to deny Him.

If God could just show Himself and then everyone would just melt and want to be with God (which mind you the angels didn't!),
then this seems to beg the question as to why God created this world of ours in the first place.
Why does God allow all the evils within it to go unchecked, if there is no real benefit to it all?
Why is it that God desires to refine us as pure gold in life, if this can be had in the instant God reveals Himself?
It just seems a little meaningless if in the end who we have become isn't given much respect whether ex-Christian, Christian or never Christian.

Those are valid points and this one:

If God were present and made Himself known, then none of us would be truly free to deny Him.

Is one that people seem to overlook a lot when they ask why God doesn't make Himself more evident ( ie: come into this world so that NONE can deny that He exists).