Faith and works

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
Mallz
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Re: Faith and works

Post by Mallz »

So, in short ( If I am getting the jist of this right):
Christ paid for the sins of ALL so ALL are reconciled to God.
People are still under the consequences of their actions however - reap what you sow.
Those who believe in Christ are free of judgment and are saved.
Those that do not are judged and shall "reap what they sow" in Hell.

Yes?
I would just like to add "Those who believe in Christ are free of judgment and are saved." but still reap what they sow. They pass judgement of their bad works, and their bad works (sins) in life produce real mortal consequences. But their good works are rewarded through believing in Jesus Christ and having your name writing in the Book of Life.

Right?
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Re: Faith and works

Post by Jac3510 »

Paul and Mallz,

Hodges is not saying that propitiation means that there is no consequence for sin. It just means that the wrath of God is satisfied, so no one--not even Hitler--goes to Hell for their sins. They go to Hell for not being in the Lamb's Book of Life, that is, for being dead. One of the things I think we need to do is see sin a little less theologically and a little more practically. Sin is not breaking a law. There is a word for that ("trespass"). Trespassing is certainly a sin, but that's not what or all sin is. Sin, rather, is disorder. It is against against our nature. It is not being what we are supposed to be, and thus, the famous "missing the mark." Sin, again, is a very practical thing. It brings destruction and chaos not simply as a judgment but just because of what it is.

Some articles I wrote you may find interesting or helpful:

Sin: A Word Study, Part I
Sin: A Word Study, Part II (not mentioned in this article specifically, but from this, I especially like the idea of seeing the devil less as "the evil one" and more as "the sick one" or "the corrupt one"!)
Sin: A Word Study, Part III
Can Real Christians Live In Sin?

edit:

jlay, some brief thoughts on John 8 later tonight!

edit2:

Paper on John 9 posted, which includes, I think, some helpful comments on the entire unit in question. Available here.
Last edited by Jac3510 on Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: Faith and works

Post by Kurieuo »

Jac3510 wrote:Of course God is the cause of our choice, K. He is the cause of EVERYTHING. If you really deny that, you are literally saying that there are some things that are uncaused. What I am NOT saying is that in causing our choices, God chooses what we will choose. That's why I said before the self-contradiction exists if and when you define God's sovereign will in opposition to what we choose.
Of course "God is not the cause of our choices."

If you are advocating a form of Divine Determinism, then this is quite serious.
Indeed, nothing makes sense in the beginning where Adam and Eve freely turn from God.
The very Gospel hinges upon our freedom to respond.
I would without any hesitation state that denying we are responsible for our decisions is not at all Christian.

But, I have a feeling that you are purposefully making equivocations on different meanings of "choices" for amusement, even at my time expense to try unpack it.
As you'd know, Aristotle himself identifies four different "causes" for things.
You do appear to be equivocating different meanings for "cause".

I don't know how others see your statements here, but I will just say this:
If God is responsible for our choices as you say, then there is no real sin, nothing for God to really punish and no true meaning to the Gospel.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: Faith and works

Post by Jac3510 »

I'm not doing anything for amusement, and certainly not at your expense. I am not advocating divine determinism. I am saying exactly what I said before: God causes everything in accordance with its nature. Moreover, remember that causality is SOLELY in the effect (metaphysically speaking). I'll try to unpack more later. For the third time, I refer the impatient reader to the aforementioned link so that it doesn't appear I'm trying to be too obtuse.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: Faith and works

Post by B. W. »

Kurieuo wrote: But, I have a feeling that you are purposefully making equivocations on different meanings of "choices" for amusement, even at my time expense to try unpack it.
As you'd know, Aristotle himself identifies four different "causes" for things.
You do appear to be equivocating different meanings for "cause".

I don't know how others see your statements here, but I will just say this:
If God is responsible for our choices as you say, then there is no real sin, nothing for God to really punish and no true meaning to the Gospel.
K, I thought you would understand the nature thing from Aquinas's position...

See this brief on the topic here:

http://divinity.duke.edu/sites/divinity ... aper-3.pdf

Note Page Six sums it up what Jac is attempting to say...
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Re: Faith and works

Post by Jac3510 »

Okay, let me try this. I'm going to try to do explain my position quickly (I know this is a bad idea and that I'm going to regret this). I'll start with a cut and paste with some edits to what I wrote in my thesis and expand on that.

So, let me start with recognizing that divine determinism is a real problem, It is real enough that some advocates of DS think that it cannot be overcome and instead just say that we have to be compatibilists of some sort . . . namely, insist that it is somehow okay that God makes our choices for us. So clearly, the free will issue is a real one, much as it is for pretty much every theological position! In my case, it presents a twofold problem for DS, for although freedom seems to require the reality of contingencies, simplicity appears to deny contingency in 1) God’s acts, 2) man’s acts. Since simplicity requires that God have no accidental properties and be the same across all possible worlds, it looks as if God necessarily exists the way He does, including His knowledge of what He (and others) will do. But in that case, then neither God nor man is free.

In answering the first problem, Aquinas says things can be necessary either absolutely or by supposition. Things absolutely necessary are those that cannot fail to be the way they are. For instance, all unmarried men are bachelors. Things are necessary by supposition when they are the way they are in reality, but they could have been otherwise. So if Socrates is sitting on a stone, it is necessary true he is so sitting, but only by supposition, for he could have been some other way.

Now, according to Aquinas, God wills His own goodness absolutely necessarily, but on that count, so do humans. Yet just as what humans will is necessary only by supposition, so it is for God. Thus it is necessary that God wills, but what God wills is not necessary in the strong sense. So it is easy to conclude with Thomas that “Wherefore we must simply say that God can do other things than those He has done.” There is no violation of simplicity for the reason that what God does is necessary only by supposition. This solves the broad problem of contingency that some contingent facts (e.g., “Humans exist”) are known by God, for those contingent facts are true only because God Himself freely willed them. They are, again, now necessarily true, but only by supposition. Thus, general contingency as well as God’s knowledge of contingent things does not conflict with simplicity.

The contingency found in human free will is much more difficult. As noted just above, some people think it cannot be overcome and that simplicity entails some form of compatibilism, which is to say, the divine determinism that I agree with you is very objectionable.

The problem may be put very succinctly: one must decide if human actions can be absolutely independent of God (that is, if humans can be true self-movers apart from God). If so, then libertarian free will is easily upheld. But this view creates at least serious problems: 1) it makes God’s knowledge contingent on human actions (making God Himself in some sense dependent on humans), and 2) it means humans are in some sense independent of God.

If one decides that absolute independence is impossible, then one must either affirm that the will is determined by God or not. If so, God’s aseity and sovereignty are easily maintained at the expense of free will, and one is left with some type of compatibilism. If not, then one must explain how a choice that is ultimately dependent on God is not thereby determined by Him.


Aquinas tries to argue that human action is not independent of God but that our will is also not determined by His choice. His explanation of how a choice is is ultimatenly dependent on Him but not thereby determined by Him is as follows:
  • God, therefore, is the first cause, Who moves causes both natural and voluntary. And just as by moving natural causes He does not prevent their acts being natural, so by moving voluntary causes He does not deprive their actions of being voluntary . . . for He operates in each thing according to its own nature.
Here, his general defense is that just as God is the First Cause of all natural causes, and yet that does not deprive them of being natural causes, so also God can be the First Cause of all voluntary (free) causes without determining them. He makes a similar claim elsewhere:
  • [God] moves all things in accordance with their conditions; so that from necessary causes through the Divine motion, effects follow of necessity; but from contingent causes, effects follow contingently. Since, therefore, the will is an active principle, not determinate to one thing, but having an indifferent relation to many things, God so moves it, that He does not determine it of necessity to one thing, but its movement remains contingent and not necessary, except in those things to which it is moved naturally.
Again, Thomas thinks that God moves causes according to their nature. Since the will is inclined to what is good, but since there can be many good things (or things perceived as good), the will is not determined to choose any one. As such, God moves it according to its proper contingency.But it is not clear how the will can freely choose among its contingencies without violating God’s aseity, sovereignty, and simplicity.

One possible answer lies in the nature of being itself. Aquinas insists that all perfections pre-exist in God, since God is the First Cause.Since intelligence is a perfection, God is obviously intelligent. But more to the point, since God is pure being, this means that whatever being itself is, when manifested in a certain way, men call it intelligence.In other words, being has latent within itself the ability to be self-determined. Thus, to the degree that man wills, he is exercising the very nature of being, in fact the highest nature of being in created things.

If this is true, and on a Thomistic metaphysic it appears to be, then the answer to how humans can make a choice dependent on God without that choice being absolutely necessarily determined by Him turns out to be the same as how God Himself can make a choice dependent on Himself without His own choice being absolutely necessary. Man, by virtue of being an intelligent creature, can will this rather than that. God, as the First Cause, actualizes it through the man and thus knows that contingency as a contingency as He would any other.

One may try to object by pointing out that this answer appears to make God respond to a person’s choice, thereby violating again God’s aseity. But this fails to recognize that it is the very nature of being to self-determine, whether in God or in man. As such, God, as the First Cause, is simply working out all effects in accordance with their formal nature, just as Thomas suggested.

I want to emphasize what I italicized just above. The distinction between necessity absolutely and by necessity is important. The former is determined. The latter is not. This distinction is why Molinism (in its classical sense) ultimately fails the free will test. Molina himself thought that the reason God knows the future is because He knows us so well that He knows what we will ALWAYS choose in any given circumstance. In other words, Molina understood that we will choose A or B necessarily because of our nature. The only reason we can't predict the future is not because our wills are indeterminate, but because we can't know all the variables at once. But God can, and so He can predict with mathematical certainty what we will always do. So on classical Molinism, the will is determined, and we do what we do absolutely necessarily, just as a triangle having three sides is absolutely necessary. Later Molinists realized the problem and corrected for it, making man's will really indeterminate. But then God cannot know our future based on a knowledge of our nature. Instead, He knows the future because He sees all our possible actions and then chooses to actualize this rather than that world. In other words, God sees in world A I am writing this post and in world B I am not writing this post. And God, apparently wanting me to write this post, actualizes world A. There are two serious problems with this view. The first is that it denies God's aseity, because it makes man's decisions logically prior to God's, insofar as God "looks to see" what I will do and then actualizes a particular world in response to my choices. But that makes God contingent on me. The second problem is that it denies God Himself freedom. And this is the REAL problem, for we see it denies God real sovereignty (and now we are getting back to my point). For here, God has some criteria by which He thinks that World A is "better" than World B. But this means that there is some criterion by which God judges what is "better" than something else. On this point, I think Frederick Copleston's remarks are helpful:
  • God did not will this present order of things necessarily, and the reason is that the end of creation is the divine goodness which so exceeds any created order that there is not and cannot be any link of necessity between a given order and the end of creation. The divine goodness and the created order are incommensurable, and there cannot be any one created order, any one universe, which is necessary to a divine goodness that is infinite and incapable of any addition. If any created order were proportionate to the divine goodness, to the end, then the divine wisdom would be determined to choose that particular order; but since the divine goodness is infinite and creation necessary finite, no created order can be proportionate in the full sense to the divine goodness.

    From the above is made apparent the answer to the question whether God could make better things than He has made or could make the things which He has made better than they are. In one sense God must always act in the best possible manner, since God's act is identical with His essence and with infinite goodness; but we cannot conclude from this that the extrinsic object of God's act, creatures, must be the best possible and taht God is bound, on account of His goodness, to produce the best possible universe if He produces one at all. As God's power is infinite, there can always be a better universe than the one God actually produces, and why He has chosen to produce a particular order of creation is His secret. St. Thomas says, therefore, that absolutely speaking God could make something better than any given thing. But if the question is raise din regard to the existent universe, a distinction must be drawn. God could not make a given thing better than it actually is in regard to its substance or essence, since that would be to make another thing. For example, rational life is in itself a higher perfection than merely sensitive life; but if God were to make a horse rational it would no longer be a horse and in that case God could not be said to make the horse better. Similarly, if God changed the order of the universe, it would not be the same universe. On the other hand, God could make a thing accidentally better; He could, for example, increase a man's bodily health, or, in the supernatural order, his grace.

    It is plain, then, that St. Thomas would not agree with the Leibnizian 'optimism' or maintain that this is the best of all possible worlds. In view of the divine omnipotence the phrase 'the best of all possible worlds' does not seem to have much meaning: it has meaning only if one supposes from the start that God creates from a necessity of His nature, from which it would follow, since God is goodness itself, that the world which proceeds from Him necessarily must be the best possible. But if God creates not from necessity of nature, but according to His nature, according to intelligence and will, that is, freely, and if God is omnipotent, it must always be possible for God to create a better world. Why, then, did He create this particular world? That is a question to which we cannot give any adequate answer, though we can certainly attempt to answer the question why God created a world in which suffering and evil are present": that is to say, we can attempt to answer the problem of evil, provided that we remember to that we cannot expect to attain any comprehensive solution of the problem in this life, owing to the finitude and imperfection of our intelligences and the fact that we cannot fathom the divine counsel and plans.

    (From A History of Philosophy: Volume 2, Part 2 -- Albert the Great to Duns Scotus (Garden City, NY: Image Books,1962), 89-90. Imprimatur: Joseph, Archiepiscopus Birmingamiensis Die 24 Aprilis 1948)
In short, we cannot presume that God created this world rather than another out of some general necessity. God cannot create out of any degree of necessity. The moment you say that, you deny God's absolute freedom, and so long as you insist on denying God's freedom you are denying His aseity and self-sufficiency. And since Molinism does that very thing, the irony is that Molinism is just reinventing Euthyphro insofar as it is making God dependent on some standard of goodness beyond Himself.

That is not to say that God created for no reason. It is to say that God created for no necessary reason. He could have had that reason rather than this one and thereby created that world rather than this one. That world could have been "better" or "worse" from your or my perspective, but it would have been neither better nor worse than this one to God. All that matters is that His reason is His own, and it is enough for us to say as much and bow before Him and grant Him our "Amen." We really need to step back and realize that by insisting on a reason that God must act in this way rather than that we are placing Him under obligation, under a standard, and thereby denying that He is, in the end, God.

As Copleston says, His reasons are secret, known only to Him so far as we know. And were He to tell us, and we said, "But why that reason, God? Why not another?" then that reason would be His own, known only to Him as far as we could know. And so on it would be ad infinitum. Eventually, the answer must simply be, "Because God has so willed or no reason whatsoever other than the brute fact that He did, and that absolutely freely, under no compulsion or dependency of any kind whatsoever." Bottom line: there is no such thing as a "better" or "best" world as far as God is concerned. And that means that it is silly to think of Him actualizing "this" rather than "that" one.

And all of THAT plays very much back into the question of Hell and free will. God doesn't actualize our choice of going to heaven or hell. God doesn't determine our choice of going to heaven or hell. If we are going to affirm human freedom, we must affirm that the human will is indeterminate. It is determined to choose what it perceives to be a good (and, of course, it may be wrong in what it perceives to be good). But when it perceives multiple goods, there is nothing determining what it must choose. And that, by the way, is not entirely unprecedented. We see it in Quantum Mechanics. We know that a certain effect is determined to take place within a range of indeterminate possibilities. Now are we really to suggest that there is no real indeterminism there after all? That there is an underlying principle determining what MUST happen? I say no (although modern philosophy would expect there to be, at least modern popular philosophy). Or worse, are we to say that God Himself is choosing--determining--where every individual QM event happens? Again, that strikes me as silly.

What we need is a philosophy that allows for--that embraces--indeterminism, without denying God's sovereignty. And that is what Thomas provided above. God causes indeterminate events to happen in an indeterminate fashion, for that is their nature. That requires no change in God, because, for Thomas, all change is in the effect, not the cause (for a rough analogy, think about a potters hand as he is fashioning the clay. The clay responds to and is shaped by the hand, but the hand is not changed at all; yet it is the shape of the hand that determines the shape of the clay). So God, as Pure Act, brings into existence an undetermined event.

Let me say that again: God, as Pure Act, brings into existence undetermined events.

What it seems to me is happening in the free will debate is people are looking for a way for God to bring about determined events only. In the case of free will, they are making what we choose to be determined by ourselves, and in the case of Molinism, they make the determining factor God Himself by actualizing what it is that He likes that we choose! But if Thomas is right, and God can bring about undetermined events, then there is no reason that God cannot equally cause volitional (which are undetermined) events. That is because, as I explained above, Being just such the sort of thing that tends toward itself. That is what Being does (which, by the way, is beautifully manifested in the Trinity). So when humans choose something and God brings about our choice, He is just causing being to exist in the highest form of defined being: namely, willed being (after all, the difference in an undetermined QM event and an undetermined volitional event is the will). And we see God does exactly the same thing in willing what He wills--not THAT He wills (which is necessary absolutely, and thus determined) but, again, WHAT He wills (which is undetermined, and only necessary by supposition).

And God has seen it fitting to will some people to Hell who freely will this or that (namely, the rejection of Christ). There is, then, no necessity of universal salvation. Of course, I cannot say that universal salvation is logically impossible. God COULD save everyone if He wanted. Remember, I think God is free to do whatever He wants. If you say that God CAN'T save everyone (going back to your divine rape argument), then you are denying God's freedom and sovereignty and are putting Him under some authority other than Himself. But I know it on faith that universal salvation is not true, insofar as God has revealed that it is not true.

Now . . . I know that is a lot of text. I threw it together very quickly with some cut and paste jobs from other things I've written through the years and all that tied together with some of my own thoughts written just now. It still isn't sufficient to answer all your questions, K. I'm afraid it might raise more than it answers. But I hope you can see that I'm being honest with you. I'm not doing anything at your expense. I'm not equivocating. I'm not advocating Divine Determinism. I'm working from a position that has been widely rejected and bluntly ignored for about 400 years. There's a lot that goes with that. But I hope this is enough to at least get started!
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: Faith and works

Post by Jac3510 »

jlay,

Anyway, some brief thoughts on dying in our sins. I would note that when Jesus used the phrase, He was explicitly comparing the Jews to the fact that He is from above and they are from below. In fact, He draws a causal relationship. Look at the passage:
  • 21 Once more Jesus said to them, “I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”

    22 This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, ‘Where I go, you cannot come’?”

    23 But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I told you [THEREFORE] that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
Notice the word I put in brackets. I don't know why the NIV leaves it out. It's there, in black and white. The word is oun, which means "therefore." Jesus is saying that He told them they will die in their sins BECAUSE they are from below. Now, the question is what to make of all that. It seems to me that the "below" is a reference to being of this world. The connection to healing of the blind man is important here (see the paper I linked to in my post to you above--it's in the edit). The Jews can't see because they are of this world, from below. Jesus is from above, from heaven. He is the Messiah who is bringing the world from above with Him. In other words, John is doing a classic thing here: he is doing a contrast, here between this world and the world Jesus comes from and is bringing.

If all that is even close to true, then I think it's clear that to "die in your sins" isn't so much making any reference to guilt or innocence of sin but has to do with the "citizenship" in question. They will die, not in the Messianic community, but apart from it, in darkness. They will be "outside." That's bad, but Jesus is telling them that they are ALREADY outside. They are in their sins right now. They would have thought they were "in." They were taking part of the life of the Kingdom by the law keeping. But they weren't. They were sinners, and that because of their blindness. Yet Jesus was calling the blind to see, which is what the miracle is about.

It's all very pretty and well done from a literary perspective. I would only add that I think that Paul recognized that usage. Cf 1 Cor 15:17 and esp Col 2:13. "In your sins" there also seems to refer not so much to the fact that they were engaging in acts of sin (after all, what Christians don't still do that) or that they were guilty of sin, per se, but of where they "belonged."

Anyway, just a quick overview, but I thought it interesting anyway.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: Faith and works

Post by Kurieuo »

B. W. wrote:
Kurieuo wrote: But, I have a feeling that you are purposefully making equivocations on different meanings of "choices" for amusement, even at my time expense to try unpack it.
As you'd know, Aristotle himself identifies four different "causes" for things.
You do appear to be equivocating different meanings for "cause".

I don't know how others see your statements here, but I will just say this:
If God is responsible for our choices as you say, then there is no real sin, nothing for God to really punish and no true meaning to the Gospel.
K, I thought you would understand the nature thing from Aquinas's position...

See this brief on the topic here:

http://divinity.duke.edu/sites/divinity ... aper-3.pdf

Note Page Six sums it up what Jac is attempting to say...
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Thanks B.W.

I am not necessarily read up on Aquinas and the like. These are areas I really need to cover in my reading.
Many conclusions I've come to on my own accord through solid reason and Scripture, and no doubt influences by modern apologetics and theological thought.

But, it was an enlightening piece -- one which confirms much of my own thought on God's drawing people while people are still able to choose.
God's grace allows for the free movement of will (human volition) towards God.
God and His grace does not usurp our free choice, such that "God is responsible for our choices" as Jac adamantly said.
I draw similar conclusions to that of Aquinas' thought as exposed in that paper.

If that is what Jac was saying then I entirely don't see that when he says: "God is responsible for our choices."
That's not the full story at all. And maybe Jac's written elsewhere such that you know what he is really saying. I don't.

I'm yet to read Jac's last messages since, so I'm hoping he clarifies more.
Right now I'm confused because:

1) Either Jac's theology ultimately trashes any consistency to Christianity, which actually makes me feel sick in the stomach (not to mention leaves me confused because I find it hard to believe any Christian would deny our free will saying God is responsible for our choices)

OR

2) There are many details that aren't covered meaning we're talking past each other with our language used.

I have to think it is (2). Hopefully Jac's extended explanation clarifies the missing things that haven't been communicated.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: Faith and works

Post by Kurieuo »

Jac3510 wrote:So, let me start with recognizing that divine determinism is a real problem, It is real enough that some advocates of DS think that it cannot be overcome and instead just say that we have to be compatibilists of some sort . . . namely, insist that it is somehow okay that God makes our choices for us. So clearly, the free will issue is a real one, much as it is for pretty much every theological position! In my case, it presents a twofold problem for DS, for although freedom seems to require the reality of contingencies, simplicity appears to deny contingency in 1) God’s acts, 2) man’s acts. Since simplicity requires that God have no accidental properties and be the same across all possible worlds, it looks as if God necessarily exists the way He does, including His knowledge of what He (and others) will do. But in that case, then neither God nor man is free.
...
The contingency found in human free will is much more difficult. As noted just above, some people think it cannot be overcome and that simplicity entails some form of compatibilism, which is to say, the divine determinism that I agree with you is very objectionable.
Thank God for that! ;)
Which means it comes down to an understanding each other and language issue.
I'll need time to read your fuller post more closely, but appreciate you writing your thoughts out more.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: Faith and works

Post by Jac3510 »

To clarify, I never said that God is responsible for our choices (at least, I don't think I did). The word "responsible" is way too ambiguous for my taste. I did say that God is the cause of our choice, but that doesn't mean He determines what our choice is. For then our choice would not be a choice. It would not be indeterminate, which would be to deny the very essence of free will.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Kurieuo
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Re: Faith and works

Post by Kurieuo »

Yes, that will give you some insight into the meaning I was injecting into "cause".
If you cause something then you're responsible. And so if God causes then He is responsible.

But, I did earlier also add that while we have free choice, God sustains our choices.
By that, using Aristotelian terms, God can be said seen as the underlying "efficient cause" of our will (and us), and in virtue of the nature of "will" we have movement to believe and choose this or that.
Reading over you, it seems you are tackling the specifics of all this, especially as it relates to contingent beings (creatures) and the necessary being (God) as would be coherent in DS terms.

Going back on course, from what I am reading (and I'm yet to digest your post more fully),
I'm assuming then that in simpleton terms you would not necessarily take exception with saying we do have free will is-so-much as God allows.
Therefore, we can freely make choices on account of God. We cause our choices, but such cause is ultimately "built upon" God.
Strictness of terms aside... that is essentially what I'm hearing.

The specifics of how this pans out in Divine Simplicity terms is another issue.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: Faith and works

Post by Jac3510 »

Yes, that's what I'm basically affirming, Scott. The whole reason I find divine determinism so objectionable is that I insist that we DO have free will. Our will is NOT determined by God. God is the cause of our will, and even of our specific choice, but He does not determine what we choose. All of this came up out of a concern that my ideas might lead to universalism. Remember I said:
  • God positively wills some people go to Hell. Cf. Matt 7:21-23. Those people certainly don't seem like they hated Christ and that for Him to accept them would be "rape" . . . No, Jesus condemned them to a place they didn't want to go. He willed they go to Hell. Like I said, that would require a deeper discussion on the nature of Hell. But I hope you can concede that is a serious matter of debate, even among Bible-believing, faithful Christians. Suffice it to say, I am not a Calvinist on this matter. There is (at least) a third option.
And that you took to be a Calvinistic style determinism. I get why you would read it that way. If I say God wills some people to Hell, then that sounds like God chooses for them to go to Hell, especially in light of your argument that God won't "force" Himself on anyone. So it would sound like I'm saying that God chooses for us to love or hate Him, I suppose.

On the flip side, I had objected to the claim that "all us non-Universalists believe that God draws the line BECAUSE He respects our freedom and does not want to force Himself on us." Again, I don't think that God forces Himself on us, and I don't think that God "respect our freedom." God sovereignly chooses, not who will believe but who to save. I'm worried that there is an underlying idea in your theology that God is restrained to save only those who let Him, and that on the pain of somehow being charged with immorality. I take God's freedom much more seriously, I think. God can save whomever He chooses. He can reject whomever He chooses. He is just not answerable to us. "Divine rape" doesn't enter picture for two reasons: first, because it doesn't make sense to even talk about God in those terms (it assumes an external standard by which to judge Him); and second, because it assumes that the person God saves is unwilling. But that's just not true. In the resurrection, everyone will want to be saved, because for the first time, everyone will see God as what He is: pure being, and since being is identical with goodness, and since the will necessarily wills and desires the good, then ALL creatures will desire God to the fullest extent of their nature. The ONLY question becomes, who will God choose to save? So God will choose to save some (and He has told us in Scripture who those are: those who believe in Christ), and He will choose to condemn others. Our choice really doesn't enter into it here at that point.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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Re: Faith and works

Post by Philip »

Jac: Again, I don't think that God forces Himself on us, and I don't think that God "respect our freedom." God sovereignly chooses, not who will believe but who to save.
Obviously, God also chooses the consequences for unbelief. So our free will has parameters and we only have freedom of choice within whatever those may be. And within those parameters, a man can either embrace or reject God.

And He saves those who desire and do indeed believe. And this is done both in conjunction with His foreknowledge of all things AND His will. And His will is to save those whom choose to love and obey Him. And so you cannot separate the two things. But God does not save merely based upon His foreknowledge (of a man's eternal choices - to receive or reject), but also upon His specific choices that are made in conjunction with His will. Make no mistake about it, HE chose us FIRST! And He did so in conjunction with BOTH His will AND His perfect foreknowledge of all things.

There are TWO and only two choices when it comes to our will: Either WE decide to do something or God does. God has already set ALL of the parameters surrounding that. Either men reject God of their own will or God willed that they reject Him. And so, as we know that God cannot sin or cause it, then we know the cause of sinful actions is ALWAYS man. How could we be held accountable for sin UNLESS IT WERE TRULY OUR SIN, that the choices are all ours?

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure." (1 Peter :1-2)

As for hell, while the unrepentant do not want God, they also don't want hell - although they desire all that necessarily leads to it. They don't desire God, want whatever their hearts so desire, but they want both of these without having to incur the consequences set by the parameters of God's will, which is hell for all who reject him.
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Re: Faith and works

Post by jlay »

Jac,
Hodges does mention this specific verse in his article, but the answer, at first, seemed unsatisfactory. However, having read the article in its entirety it now is making better sense. It is often hard to rethink and disassociate ourselves with modern presuppositions that, at times, we don't even stop and consider. What you mention is so important. We just assume that our understanding of propitiation, atonement, etc. are correct.

As Hodges says, we don't need a complete theological grasp of every detail to be saved. But, it is the failure to understand these details that can create confusion and lead to conclusions, such as Calvinistic determinism, which then gives birth to the false doctrine of limited atonement.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord

"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious
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Re: Faith and works

Post by PaulSacramento »

We are getting into the issue of preordained or predetermined or foreknowledge of, which has lead many to the view that God has already decided who is in the book of life or not even BEFORE they are born.
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