"Ought implies can"

[Starhunter]

Those who trust Christ are MADE perfect. That word means complete. It isn't a legal requirement.

No? I am not sure what you mean by that, but I know that legality scares some people, so I just want to say something about the legal aspect of the gospel.

Some people conclude that the sacrifice of Christ has no legal implications, and they have a fear of its condemnation - and rightly so, because it has no saving value to the sinner, except that it may cause us to need a Savior.
Many Christians presume that the law is the problem, when it is in fact the sin of the world that is the problem, not the law.
So their gospel seeks to annihilate or minimize the legal aspect of the Gospel, even though Christ came to uphold the law and grace in order to save sinners from sin and not in it.

Paul says in conclusion to the efficiency of the work of Christ as our the high priest -
"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy...how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath has trodden underfoot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant ...an unholy thing..." Hebrews 10:28,29.
It is more dangerous to fall into the hands of the living God than to come under the condemnation of the law. verse 31.

The law is a statement of the character of God, who does not lie, steal, is not unfaithful, loves you one on one, makes up no image of you, does not slander your reputation, does not covet, etc. So if we think that Christ came to save us from legality we have another thing coming, "for our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:18-29.

There is nothing wrong with the law of God, the Psalmist says it is perfect, and there is nothing wrong with the character of God. The law demands that the character of God is replicated in man, the way man was made in the beginning without sin.
Christ came to restore man to the image of God and nothing less. And He can do it for those who believe in Him.

Paul says again "that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us..who walk after the Spirit" Hebrews 8:4, That's a legal requirement which has been met. And the result of Christ dwelling in our hearts and minds.
If the gospel does not meet the requirements of the law, then it is not good news but bad news.

Love is the fulfillment of the law, for the law simply means to love God with all your heart and your fellow man as yourself.

There is one law though among the ten which Christendom fights tooth and nail to keep out of their face. No need to guess which one. Hence the weavings of a false gospel.

[jlay]

No? I am not sure what you mean by that, but I know that legality scares some people, so I just want to say something about the legal aspect of the gospel.

Uh, are you ever going to answer my question??

Some people conclude that the sacrifice of Christ has no legal implications, and they have a fear of its condemnation - and rightly so, because it has no saving value to the sinner, except that it may cause us to need a Savior.
Many Christians presume that the law is the problem, when it is in fact the sin of the world that is the problem, not the law.
So their gospel seeks to annihilate or minimize the legal aspect of the Gospel, even though Christ came to uphold the law and grace in order to save sinners from sin and not in it.

Romans 3:3
Christ saved us while we were yet IN our sin.

Paul says in conclusion to the efficiency of the work of Christ as our the high priest -
"He that despised Moses' law died without mercy...how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath has trodden underfoot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant ...an unholy thing..." Hebrews 10:28,29.

Your interpretive method is scattered. Interesting that you would bring up this verse. The author is comparing those Hebrews (It's written to Jews, BTW) who rejected the law with those who now reject the Gospel.

The law is a statement of the character of God, who does not lie, steal, is not unfaithful, loves you one on one, makes up no image of you, does not slander your reputation, does not covet, etc. So if we think that Christ came to save us from legality we have another thing coming

Gal. 3:13

There is nothing wrong with the law of God, the Psalmist says it is perfect, and there is nothing wrong with the character of God. The law demands that the character of God is replicated in man, the way man was made in the beginning without sin.
Christ came to restore man to the image of God and nothing less. And He can do it for those who believe in Him.

The Psalmist says it is perfect for converting the soul. The scripture is clear that the Law was given for a purpose. To lead Israel, and in turn, the world, to Christ.
Gal. 3:24
It is a strawman to imply that myself or anyone else is saying there is something 'wrong' with the law.

Love is the fulfillment of the law, for the law simply means to love God with all your heart and your fellow man as yourself

And that gets back to my original question, which you have avoided giving a straight answer. Either you are doing this or you are not.

There is one law though among the ten which Christendom fights tooth and nail to keep out of their face. No need to guess which one. Hence the weavings of a false gospel.

[/quote][/quote]
If you are preaching that one MUST keep the law in addition to faith, then you are preaching a false Gospel.

[Starhunter]

Jlay :If you are preaching that one MUST keep the law in addition to faith, then you are preaching a false Gospel.

I am glad you said "If,"
no not an addition but a consequence of faith. A genuine conversion produces the works of Christ in the life which are in accordance with not only the letter of the law but its spirituality.

So if a Christian finds themselves breaking the 10 commandments outwardly or in thought, then Christ is the One to turn to for the remedy. But if a person lays claim to the benefits of the gospel and finds themselves not keeping the commandments, and does not come to Christ for healing, then they are in danger of losing their salvation, if at some time they do not repent.

The 10 commandments "are not grievous" to the converted. They define sin in a comprehensive way, so that none need be mistaken.

[jlay]

I am glad you said "If,"
no not an addition but a consequence of faith. A genuine conversion produces the works of Christ in the life which are in accordance with not only the letter of the law but its spirituality.

You still haven't answered the question. And, all you are doing here is backloading the Gospel with works. You are still saying that one's salvation is contingent on whether they adhere to some behavioral standard, although you haven't provided any defining terms of this standard, or been willing to answer whether you are fulfilling it yourself. If this is what you believe then show us that there is no plank in your own eye. If that is your claim to the Gospel of salvation, then it is certainly the one you will be measured by.
A genuine conversion effects salvation and allows for the sanctified life as one submits to Christ. This is why the majority of Paul's writing is instruction on how to manifest the HS in one's life. If it were as you say, then Paul would have no need to write Romans 12:1-2, since this would be a 'consequence' of genuine faith. But he does right this, in addition to a plethora of other instructions on Christian living.

So if a Christian finds themselves breaking the 10 commandments outwardly or in thought, then Christ is the One to turn to for the remedy. But if a person lays claim to the benefits of the gospel and finds themselves not keeping the commandments, and does not come to Christ for healing, then they are in danger of losing their salvation, if at some time they do not repent.

So, you can lose your salvation if you don't live up to some standard? You are saying that a believer is under the Law, while the scripture clearly states the opposite. So, you are clearly preaching a works based Gospel. Period, end of story, consequence or not. What you describe is a contract, where a person commits themselves to keep the law. All you are doing is adding faith in Jesus as the 11th commandment.

The 10 commandments "are not grievous" to the converted. They define sin in a comprehensive way, so that none need be mistaken.

You are redefining the 10 to suit your own religious standard of self-righteousness. The OT couldn't be clearer as to the letter of the law or the consequences of breaking it. You have clearly placed yourself under the law, although a conveniently amended version that you think you are keeping.
You've also appear to be incorrectly defining repentance. You need to repent, that is RETHINK your notions of the law and its role in the life of the believer.

[Starhunter]

When Paul says to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, that can only be done by surrender to Christ.
The only work the believer has to do is just that - to surrender, and it is the work of God is to transform us, to bring obedience into the heart and consequently into the life. "For it is God which works in us both to will and to do His good pleasure."
The Holy Spirit will not cause a person to sin, or break any of God's commandments. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil which is sin, and sin is defined in the Bible as the transgression of the law. I John 3:4 - 10.

I don't know what your Q is and what you want to hear.
Could you ask the Q and leave a multiple choice answer?

[jlay]

When Paul says to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, that can only be done by surrender to Christ.
The only work the believer has to do is just that - to surrender, and it is the work of God is to transform us, to bring obedience into the heart and consequently into the life. "For it is God which works in us both to will and to do His good pleasure."

Romans 12:1,2 is written to BELIEVERS. Of course we SHOULD be obedient. Of course we OUGHT not to sin. Of course we SHOULD surrender our lives to the Lordship of Christ. You won't find any disagreement. But that is not the same as saying that obedience and sinlessness is a requirement to be saved.

The Holy Spirit will not cause a person to sin, or break any of God's commandments. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil which is sin, and sin is defined in the Bible as the transgression of the law. I John 3:4 - 10.

The law is an outside standard. The believer is not subject to the law, and has the very spirit of God abiding in his inner man. Why should we not steal? Because it is a law? Really? Or should not steal because it is contrary to who we already are, in Christ?

I don't know what your Q is and what you want to hear.
Could you ask the Q and leave a multiple choice answer?

The question: Have you surrendered every facet of your life (word, thought and deed) to Christ?
a. yes
b. no

[Starhunter]

Quote Jlay: The question: Have you surrendered every facet of your life (word, thought and deed) to Christ?
a. yes
b. no

For personal issues I only answer to Christ.

In regards to keeping the commandments, the law is not outside of the gospel, or outside of Christ, or outside of heaven.
And if God is true to His promise the law will not be outside of us either, but written in our hearts. Hebrews 10:15 -18.

Keeping the commandments is a condition of entering heaven, Revelation 22:14 KJV. Some newer versions have deleted part of this text and changed it to "Blessed are they that have washed their robes" No one gets to heaven by doing the laundry, but by having the law written in their hearts.
If the law is about loving God with all the heart and the neighbor as ourselves then what is wrong with it? Nothing.

So then why does Christendom have to remove the law from their so called gospel? What is their secret by which they are tied into a contract with Satan?

The answer is as obvious as the margarine in the fridge.

There are some people who are afraid of the 10 commandments, and do not believe that God can perfect His love in them.
Revelation 21:8. The fearful and unbelieving cannot enter heaven.

The question is "what sin is it that must continue and be repeated in our lives, to the extent that we remove the law from the Gospel?"

I John chapters 1 - 5 explain the new covenant, the Gospel and the commandments. There are no new commandments except in application on a deeper level. I John 2:7. Jesus taught the old commandments in a new way, they are to be applied in the heart, where the thoughts and feelings begin, not just outwardly as the rich young man that came to Christ for a word on salvation. The new covenant was one that Abraham entered into, it has always been there, but the Israelites preferred to keep the love and law of God out of their hearts and lives, hence the promise of God to write the law in their hearts. That is the new covenant which applies to all, in all time.

A covenant is an agreement between two parties not one, so if one party agrees to do it the hard way, then that is part of the covenant. The old covenant did not work because it consisted of one party in unbelief. That is not God's fault.
But it is interesting that God still played His part in that covenant, so He can be trusted to be loyal even in a dysfunctional relationship. Does not that tell us something? That though we are unbelieving God remains true. If God remains true under betrayal, how much more effective is His grace if we believe?

But people, as in old times, do not believe that the walls of Canaan can be conquered, because they have measured the warfare on the terms of their own abilities and strength. Hence we have the majority of Christendom caught up in the unbelief that God cannot keep them from sinning. As John says "He that says I know God and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him"
What is that truth? That Jesus can save us from sinning.

If Jesus cannot do that then sin will continue in heaven.

Is it our business how He does it? No. Our only business is to admit that we are sinful I John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin" we kid ourselves. The rest of salvation should be left in trust to our successful Lord.

Do we believe that God can save us to the uttermost? Ephesians 3:14 -21.

Any Gospel which teaches that God will fail in His work, is one that ultimately is based on some merit in human achievement, or works of the flesh as Paul calls them.
So even when you separate the law from the gospel, you end up having to come up to the standard of your own imagination, or the agendas in behavior of your religious group.
Because the standard of Christ has been thrown out, and something achievable by man, a behavior that can be acclimatized to, has taken its place. Then you don't need utter dependence on God to keep His law, now you can do something in response to God's love by yourself, having a new reachable human standard, the general 'new commandments' called love, being nice to people and grinning like a Cheshire cat.

Will looking good and do gooding get anyone to heaven? No.

If the Bible teaches that the law could be laid aside from the Gospel, why did not God lay it aside before, so that Christ did not have to pay the penalty for breaking it?

[jlay]

Quote Jlay: The question: Have you surrendered every facet of your life (word, thought and deed) to Christ?
a. yes
b. no

For personal issues I only answer to Christ.

If you are going to make declarations about what is required of salvation and then not even be willing to state whether you are living up to that standard, then there is no point in going on with the conversation.

If the Bible teaches that the law could be laid aside from the Gospel, why did not God lay it aside before, so that Christ did not have to pay the penalty for breaking it?

Heb. 9:15, 16 (the will doesn't go into effect until the death of the one who made it)
Heb. 8:13 (obsolete) Do you know what that word means?
Matt. 5:18 What has Jesus failed to do in your mind to leave this unfulfilled?

[Starhunter]

The will or covenant of God was that He would provide the sacrificial Lamb for the world. Whoever believed that was justified and sanctified before it was ratified.
When the Savior died, the old passed away and the new - of looking back on the sacrificial Lamb - began.

Matthew 5:18 Jesus said that the heaven and earth is likely to pass away before the law does.
From what we observe the heaven and the earth are still here, so the law must still be in there too.
And He goes on to clarify - if anyone breaks these and teaches others that they are redundant, he will have his name removed from the book of life -(Revelation)

Jesus said your righteousness has to exceed that of the Scribes and Pharisees. They did the best a man can do, like religions do- but there was no transformation of the heart as only Christ can do. Only such righteousness which cannot be done by man is welcome in heaven. But if we put the law aside and invent agendas of behaviors that we can acclimatize to, what is the miracle or gospel in that? Every good sports person can change their behavior for the better. Every religion can change a person, but nothing can bring the righteousness of God except the Son of God.

[RickD]

Starhunter,

Jlay asked you before. Please tell us what Christ failed to fulfill at the cross.

[melanie]

I don't think Starhunter implied that Jesus failed to fulfil on the cross.
I have been very busy of late so I have not been keeping up with threads so forgive me if I have missed something but from what I have read I don't see what you guys are.
We are bound under the new covenant, the price Jesus paid for all of us. We are not bound under the law, as per the old covenant. But through the Holy Spirit the law which is really Gods love and character is written in our hearts. Our actions do not reflect God or our good deeds as there can are are ulterior motives to even perceived 'goodness' but our hearts expose us.
Light and dark have no way to coincide.
If we walk in the light of Christ then we cast out the shadows.
It really can be no other way.

[RickD]

Imo,

This blog does a good, in depth job of explaining what we're talking about.
https://agonizinglyhonestchristianity.w ... g-the-law/

[PaulSacramento]

Imo,

This blog does a good, in depth job of explaining what we're talking about.
https://agonizinglyhonestchristianity.w ... g-the-law/

Nice article.
It is a bit interesting that those the believe we are still under the Law mean THEIR understanding of WHICH Law we are still under.
I also like how the writer reminds us that it is not JUST the Law but also the Prophets ( ie: what we call the OT) that Jesus was referring to.

[jlay]

I'm really not interested in getting into a law/grace argument with Starhunter, but I do take exception when people start making up their own bible verses.

And He goes on to clarify - if anyone breaks these and teaches others that they are redundant, he will have his name removed from the book of life -(Revelation)

That isn't what Revelation says, and this is just dishonest.
Starhunter can't even see that he is guilty of doing exactly what he is accusing, as Paul pointed out. SH is going by his understanding of the law and not the actual law itself. I'm quite tired of the evasive maneuvers. I think I've made my point, and don't see anything fruitful in continuing this discussion with SH.

[Starhunter]

But those who live by faith, keep the commandments of God, they don't try to diminish their veracity or think they are in any way capable of keeping it.

As sinners we have lost our righteousness and ability to do righteous acts, because the central core of our being is selfish, so the law can never be kept as far as God is concerned who sees the inside, not just the outward which can fool many.
Even Satan can appear as righteous as he did at the temptation of Christ in the wilderness.
But Christ came to uphold the law of God in its full spirituality, while at the same time paying for our breaking of the law, and not only that but allowing His perfect life of obedience stand as the representative of the human race, and giving the human race a Savior who can transform the believer.
This transformation can only be done by faith in Christ as our substitute in front of God, and as our representative too.

Anything outside of this union, such as having merit in believing that God generally overlooks certain sins of the believers, or having merit in works, is sin.

The Jews in their estimate did not believe that God would cause the overthrow of the Canaanites because they were fortified and much taller. Then when they were told they might as well go back to the desert, they whipped themselves up into a high and decided to go in and attack, and were easily overcome with great losses.
Had they believed in God they would have conquered the impossible, and never had a need to minimize the walls of Canaan in their minds by committing a sensational religious revival.

To obey God is never an act of works, but works of the flesh follow disobedience to the faith.
If they believed God, then they would have conquered, but they disbelieved and then tried to obey. That was their mistake.
And reducing the reality of the conquest by denying the strength of the Canaanites was also their mistake.

Leave the reality of the law alone, Jesus would not have needed to die if it could be put aside, He died, not because the law was a problem, but because the human race had broken it.