Why do we argue with people who are firm in their beliefs

[PaulSacramento]

Not sure what your point is Melanie...

[melanie]

Not sure what your point is Melanie...

My point is 'what is good for the geese is good for the gander'

[PaulSacramento]

Not sure what your point is Melanie...

My point is 'what is good for the geese is good for the gander'

Nature tells us otherwise

That said, the issue here is why argue with someone that has made it clear they are right and any other view point is wrong? why argue with someone that says an opposing view point is the work of Satan?
You don't, the best you can do is point out where they are wrong and why ( with evidence) BUT not for THEM but for any other reading.

[melanie]

Not sure what your point is Melanie...

My point is 'what is good for the geese is good for the gander'

Nature tells us otherwise

That said, the issue here is why argue with someone that has made it clear they are right and any other view point is wrong? why argue with someone that says an opposing view point is the work of Satan?
You don't, the best you can do is point out where they are wrong and why ( with evidence) BUT not for THEM but for any other reading.

I get where your coming from Paul

[PaulSacramento]

I, and some others here too, have been debating and discussing these issues with skeptics and fellow believers for many years, more than 10 for me by the way.
Not speaking for anyone but myself:
I tend to notice a pattern that is uniform from BOTH sides of the extreme ( moderates tend to be open to the possibility they may be wrong):
I am right because if I am not right then my whole belief structure has no foundation !
Skeptics tend to NOT want to believe and believers tend to HAVE TO believe.
The extremists views are so dogmatic and unchangeable that they INVENT the opposing position in a way that they CAN refute and dismiss it.

In short, skeptics create a God they can refute.
As for extremist believers, they feel the MUST hold on their position ( be it bible inerrancy, anti-evolution, 7 day creation, whatever) because if they don't their WHOLE faith system collapes.

Skeptics put their faith in themselves.
Extremists believers put their faith in something other than Christ.

IMO.

[RickD]

Paul and Melanie,

Please stop arguing. You're never going to change each other's mind.

[PaulSacramento]

Paul and Melanie,

Please stop arguing. You're never going to change each other's mind.

I totally disagree with you Rick.
I have no evidence to back up my disagreement other than the FACT that I am right.

[melanie]

I, and some others here too, have been debating and discussing these issues with skeptics and fellow believers for many years, more than 10 for me by the way.
Not speaking for anyone but myself:
I tend to notice a pattern that is uniform from BOTH sides of the extreme ( moderates tend to be open to the possibility they may be wrong):
I am right because if I am not right then my whole belief structure has no foundation !
Skeptics tend to NOT want to believe and believers tend to HAVE TO believe.
The extremists views are so dogmatic and unchangeable that they INVENT the opposing position in a way that they CAN refute and dismiss it.

In short, skeptics create a God they can refute.
As for extremist believers, they feel the MUST hold on their position ( be it bible inerrancy, anti-evolution, 7 day creation, whatever) because if they don't their WHOLE faith system collapes.

Skeptics put their faith in themselves.
Extremists believers put their faith in something other than Christ.

IMO.

I'm not sure that I would place people who don't believe in evolution and 7 day creationist in the extreme category?
That's a big call.
At best it's a flip side to your own personal belief system, so it's extreme by your own personal standards because it argues against your own beliefs but in the bigger picture all it really is is an opposing view.
I could say the same but on the other side of the coin.
I don't believe in evolution but not to extremism and I'm certainly not worried if I'm wrong it will collapse my entire belief system

[melanie]

Paul and Melanie,

Please stop arguing. You're never going to change each other's mind.

I totally disagree with you Rick.
I have no evidence to back up my disagreement other than the FACT that I am right.

Hehe Bring it on Paul

[PaulSacramento]

I, and some others here too, have been debating and discussing these issues with skeptics and fellow believers for many years, more than 10 for me by the way.
Not speaking for anyone but myself:
I tend to notice a pattern that is uniform from BOTH sides of the extreme ( moderates tend to be open to the possibility they may be wrong):
I am right because if I am not right then my whole belief structure has no foundation !
Skeptics tend to NOT want to believe and believers tend to HAVE TO believe.
The extremists views are so dogmatic and unchangeable that they INVENT the opposing position in a way that they CAN refute and dismiss it.

In short, skeptics create a God they can refute.
As for extremist believers, they feel the MUST hold on their position ( be it bible inerrancy, anti-evolution, 7 day creation, whatever) because if they don't their WHOLE faith system collapes.

Skeptics put their faith in themselves.
Extremists believers put their faith in something other than Christ.

IMO.

I'm not sure that I would place people who don't believe in evolution and 7 day creationist in the extreme category?
That's a big call.
At best it's a flip side to your own personal belief system, so it's extreme by your own personal standards because it argues against your own beliefs but in the bigger picture all it really is is an opposing view.
I could say the same but on the other side of the coin.
I don't believe in evolution but not to extremism and I'm certainly not worried if I'm wrong it will collapse my entire belief system

What makes one an extremist is NOT that they do not believe in evolution or they believe in young earth, it is that they believe that their WHOLE belief structure is based on those things.

The fact that you are open enough to say: " I'm certainly not worried if I'm wrong it will collapse my entire belief system", shows that you are NOT an extremist.

For myself, I do believe in evolution BUT if I was to find out that I was wrong, then I'd be totally fine with that too since my Faith is based on Christ and not any minor and trivial secondary thing like HOW God created the universe.

Those were just examples I used because they tend to be ones that are often cited here.

[PaulSacramento]

Paul and Melanie,

Please stop arguing. You're never going to change each other's mind.

I totally disagree with you Rick.
I have no evidence to back up my disagreement other than the FACT that I am right.

Hehe Bring it on Paul

[Danieltwotwenty]

Thank you for the reply Mel (I hope you don't mind Mel or do you prefer Milly?).

This has been very productive so far and I would like to continue.

No offence taken here Dan, you have asked some good questions but also made some assumptions that I can hopefully clear up for you.
I said that my belief through my own research is something I hold fast too, that is quite different to claiming to be right without doubt, i am quite certain that there are many things I have percieved with my limited understanding when it comes to the inner workings of God that I will be wrong about.

I think there may have been misunderstanding, I wasn't saying you had no doubt, I was quoting what you said about ACB and the questions were concerning his stance, given that I still appreciate your answer as it highlights a correct attitude for discussion.

The reason I do not engage in creation debate, regardless of my position is because I do not know for certain, none of us do. The fact that none of us do is not oversight by God. To be honest, I don't know how anyone can claim absolute truth on any side of the coin when it comes to creation but Dan they do, and not just Abel. Whilst Abel was pushing his stance, others were pushing back with the same level of certainty. I could quote but I think that road is better left, and the reality is we both are biased, not in a nasty way or deliberately but I sympathise with Abels position because I sway that way in my beliefs and you take offence because he is fervently questioning your beliefs.

Paul has actually hit the nail on the head with where I was heading with my questions and it is that extreme I am right and everyone else is wrong attitude that is a big problem for constructive debate on a forum such as this (I have said this before but I think that Mod's need to tighten the reins a bit on this sort of behaviour as it is very counter productive). I personally think from my own experience on many different forums is that these attitudes breed hatred and as far as I can see they are not of Christ. If we look at what Paul/Saul says on love [1 Corinthians 13] and follow what Jesus commanded us to do [John 13:34], which is above all else love one another as he loved us, I think we can conclude that the things that ACB have said about his brothers and sisters in Christ are definitely not loving. Love does not dishonour others and I don't know about you but I felt pretty dishonoured by some of his comments, to suggest that Satan has deceived me is a pretty horribe thing to say, especially when there is zero evidence to support such an idea. I could go on and on here but I think I have said enough and hopefully ACB has not taken offence at my words as I am not meaning them to be harsh but I do mean them to be truthful.

Scripture tell us there are truths we do not know and can not know, not while we are on this earth. God does not make mistakes or oversights, the fact that this has been such a hotly debated topic for centuries is because we simply do not have the answers. not the christian community or the scientific community. There are a whole lotta theories and that's about it.

Absolutely, I am glad we can agree on a lot of things, not that I expect an echo chamber but it is nice to talk to reasonable people.

But whilst science tries to answers the questions without God, we know the answer lies whatever it is with our Creator.

Now this part here I strongly disagree with, science is the study of the natural world, the natural world is the word of God because he spoke it into existence [Psalm 33:9] [Hebrews 11:3], out of God's mouth came his physical word and through the Prophets came his written word and through Jesus of Nazareth came his living word. The Bible even says in [Romans 1:20] that if we study the natural world (science) we will see God's immense power and creative mind. While we use theology and philosophy to study God's written word and we listen to the Holy Spirit which convicts us and we use doctrines to explain concepts, we also use science to study God's physical word and we use theories to explain those concepts. Christians have a long history with science and for good reason, God told us to love him with all our heart, soul and mind Matthew 22:37 and through science we can learn about the nature of God just as we can with philosophy and theology. Science to me doesn't try to answer questions without God, maybe some scientists do, but the scientific method of discovery does not and science simply is just the study of the word of God.

Sure we can have opinions, even conviction but none of us have the authority to presume to know how the most creative genius far beyond anyone's understanding would go about His work.

We could also say the same for doctrines, they are just human understandings of God's written word and this would put Y.E.C, Gap theory, Theistic evolution, O.E.C and dare I say it Trinitarianism in the same boat.

That brings me to the question of would I trust my doctor to give me something to cure an infection, of course. Would I trust a scientist to tell me exactly how The Almighty created and established life not only on this earth but the universe, yeah no! Some things are just beyond our expertise.

Granted, I accept that there are problems with evolutionary theory but it is currently the best possibly theory given the evidence, that may change in the future and my beliefs about how God created the world will change with it. No scientist says it is 100% fact, nothing is set in stone and all we can do is follow the evidence to where it leads us. This question was actually directed at ACB as he said he does not trust mans word and I already knew you did as do I, because we have reason to believe that our doctor would have our best interests in mind when prescribing medicine.

I hope that was everything that I had on my mind, but that is my perspective so far.

[PaulSacramento]

Granted, I accept that there are problems with evolutionary theory but it is currently the best possibly theory given the evidence, that may change in the future and my beliefs about how God created the world will change with it. No scientist says it is 100% fact, nothing is set in stone and all we can do is follow the evidence to where it leads us. This question was actually directed at ACB as he said he does not trust mans word and I already knew you did as do I, because we have reason to believe that our doctor would have our best interests in mind when prescribing medicine.

I am in the same boat.
I am well aware there are issues that evolution as it is commonly presented, do not answer ( of course Darwinians do not see it that way) in a satisfactory way BUT the theory is open to change and to being corrected, like any other science.
The fact is that NO OTHER view address those issues as well as evolution and no other view address what evolution has stated.

We must be vary careful when we state that we do NOT trust man's word since, outside of personal revelation, when it comes to God and Christ that is really all we have.
So...

[melanie]

Thank you for the reply Mel (I hope you don't mind Mel or do you prefer Milly?).

This has been very productive so far and I would like to continue.

No offence taken here Dan, you have asked some good questions but also made some assumptions that I can hopefully clear up for you.
I said that my belief through my own research is something I hold fast too, that is quite different to claiming to be right without doubt, i am quite certain that there are many things I have percieved with my limited understanding when it comes to the inner workings of God that I will be wrong about.

I think there may have been misunderstanding, I wasn't saying you had no doubt, I was quoting what you said about ACB and the questions were concerning his stance, given that I still appreciate your answer as it highlights a correct attitude for discussion.

The reason I do not engage in creation debate, regardless of my position is because I do not know for certain, none of us do. The fact that none of us do is not oversight by God. To be honest, I don't know how anyone can claim absolute truth on any side of the coin when it comes to creation but Dan they do, and not just Abel. Whilst Abel was pushing his stance, others were pushing back with the same level of certainty. I could quote but I think that road is better left, and the reality is we both are biased, not in a nasty way or deliberately but I sympathise with Abels position because I sway that way in my beliefs and you take offence because he is fervently questioning your beliefs.

Paul has actually hit the nail on the head with where I was heading with my questions and it is that extreme I am right and everyone else is wrong attitude that is a big problem for constructive debate on a forum such as this (I have said this before but I think that Mod's need to tighten the reins a bit on this sort of behaviour as it is very counter productive). I personally think from my own experience on many different forums is that these attitudes breed hatred and as far as I can see they are not of Christ. If we look at what Paul/Saul says on love [1 Corinthians 13] and follow what Jesus commanded us to do [John 13:34], which is above all else love one another as he loved us, I think we can conclude that the things that ACB have said about his brothers and sisters in Christ are definitely not loving. Love does not dishonour others and I don't know about you but I felt pretty dishonoured by some of his comments, to suggest that Satan has deceived me is a pretty horribe thing to say, especially when there is zero evidence to support such an idea. I could go on and on here but I think I have said enough and hopefully ACB has not taken offence at my words as I am not meaning them to be harsh but I do mean them to be truthful.

Scripture tell us there are truths we do not know and can not know, not while we are on this earth. God does not make mistakes or oversights, the fact that this has been such a hotly debated topic for centuries is because we simply do not have the answers. not the christian community or the scientific community. There are a whole lotta theories and that's about it.

Absolutely, I am glad we can agree on a lot of things, not that I expect an echo chamber but it is nice to talk to reasonable people.

But whilst science tries to answers the questions without God, we know the answer lies whatever it is with our Creator.

Now this part here I strongly disagree with, science is the study of the natural world, the natural world is the word of God because he spoke it into existence [Psalm 33:9] [Hebrews 11:3], out of God's mouth came his physical word and through the Prophets came his written word and through Jesus of Nazareth came his living word. The Bible even says in [Romans 1:20] that if we study the natural world (science) we will see God's immense power and creative mind. While we use theology and philosophy to study God's written word and we listen to the Holy Spirit which convicts us and we use doctrines to explain concepts, we also use science to study God's physical word and we use theories to explain those concepts. Christians have a long history with science and for good reason, God told us to love him with all our heart, soul and mind Matthew 22:37 and through science we can learn about the nature of God just as we can with philosophy and theology. Science to me doesn't try to answer questions without God, maybe some scientists do, but the scientific method of discovery does not and science simply is just the study of the word of God.

Sure we can have opinions, even conviction but none of us have the authority to presume to know how the most creative genius far beyond anyone's understanding would go about His work.

We could also say the same for doctrines, they are just human understandings of God's written word and this would put Y.E.C, Gap theory, Theistic evolution, O.E.C and dare I say it Trinitarianism in the same boat.

That brings me to the question of would I trust my doctor to give me something to cure an infection, of course. Would I trust a scientist to tell me exactly how The Almighty created and established life not only on this earth but the universe, yeah no! Some things are just beyond our expertise.

Granted, I accept that there are problems with evolutionary theory but it is currently the best possibly theory given the evidence, that may change in the future and my beliefs about how God created the world will change with it. No scientist says it is 100% fact, nothing is set in stone and all we can do is follow the evidence to where it leads us. This question was actually directed at ACB as he said he does not trust mans word and I already knew you did as do I, because we have reason to believe that our doctor would have our best interests in mind when prescribing medicine.

I hope that was everything that I had on my mind, but that is my perspective so far.

Mel is good, I actually prefer it, I should probably edit my profile
I also apologise to Abel, I put his name into this, and Its not really fair. In saying that I completely agree with you that we must converse wih each other with love and repect at all times, even when we feel like we are the ones who have been dishonoured. I think due to the fact that we are talking about ideas/beliefs that to a certain extent define our faith even though they may not be the defining factor, sometimes things are taken out of context or too personally. I have re-read the threads and reiterate again, I do not believe Abel intentionally disrespected anybody or crossed the line. He has been given no warning on here, or told to pull his socks up and I think that is inline with how I percieve the discussions. Now the fact that you took offence to a belief of Abel's is not itself reflective of disrespect on his part. There are beliefs that I hold that granted I have not put out there because I understand that to others they would be offensive, but the fact that I hold those opinions are not held on my behalf out of disrespect for others in just so happens that it is an unavoidable outcome.
What Abel basically said was 'if evolution is not accurate, then that would be a pretty clever tool of Satan to lead people away from God'. I'm not saying I agree, but when you look at that statement objectively I see what he is saying. He did say 'if'. If Abel had of said 'anybody who believes in evolution is decieved by the Devil and believes in a tool that leads people away from God'. That would have been different, it would have been a personal attack.
He believes that if it turns out it's not at all true, it could be a very useful deception of Satan. That in itself is not disrespectful, it's his opinion. Would I have chose to have not said it, probably, at best perhaps it's a little thoughtless.

I have a lot to say in regards to your view of science, unfortunately I simple don't have the time to go thoroughly into it, so with time permitting I hope I can give the best response right now.
Science is not simply the study of Gods word, to say that maybe some scientist try to find the answer outside of God is not accurate. You ask any and by any I mean by and large the vast majority of scientist if science is a secular field of study and
You will find that answer is yes. Does that mean that there are no scientist who beleive to some compacity in God, of course not, but science is answering questions about the universe, the Big Bang ect completely devoid of God in the equation. To say that it is a naturalistic Science and God created nature, so therefore it is studying Gods natural enviroment is like telling a scientist who denies the existence of God, that he must believe in God because he is studying Gods natural enviroment. I think we can both imagine the scientists response.
The fact of the matter is, no matter how many Christians tie in evolution into their beliefs, it has had a massive detrimental effect on people relying on God instead of man to answer the question of 'why are we here, how did we get here ect'. There have been enough independent studies to show how many people have rejected not only Christianity but religion in favour of evolutionary beliefs. Studies have also shown in the last hundred years the drop by percentage of scientists who claim to believe in God, there has been a fast and steady decline. I was just looking at a study the other day, I will try and find it and attach, but I don't think its really necessary, I think most people would logically see that scientist 100 years ago, 50 years ago up to the modern day have by and large turned to secular scientific beliefs completly outside of God.
Does that mean evolution is inaccurate, of course not, what it does mean is the theory of evolution has had the effect of causing multitudes of people to turn away from God. The burning question of 'why are we here' has been answered through science (not definitively, but convincingly enough for many) so as to deny the existence of God. The fact that you and many Chrsitians also believe in evolution in no way diminishes the fact that the vast majority of scientist would say and the scientific community as a whole (I have a whole heap of quotes from scientists and scientific communities) that science has proved that the universe, earth and humans were created by chance and completely outside of the will of God. Or as one scientist put it 'God is dead'.
Don't confuse Dan your personal pursuit of interlacing science and God with the secular study of science.
Blessings

[Danieltwotwenty]

Mel is good, I actually prefer it, I should probably edit my profile

My friends call me Dan, I hate Daniel as it sounds to childish to me now that I am a "man".

I also apologise to Abel, I put his name into this, and Its not really fair. In saying that I completely agree with you that we must converse wih each other with love and repect at all times, even when we feel like we are the ones who have been dishonoured. I think due to the fact that we are talking about ideas/beliefs that to a certain extent define our faith even though they may not be the defining factor, sometimes things are taken out of context or too personally. I have re-read the threads and reiterate again, I do not believe Abel intentionally disrespected anybody or crossed the line.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, I find the behaviour destructive to the forum. I think I have said all I wanted to say on this subject, so I will think I will move on now, unless someone brings something new to the table.

He has been given no warning on here, or told to pull his socks up and I think that is inline with how I percieve the discussions.

I feel the Mod's have always been lax on this issue and even partake in this behaviour themselves from time to time, as do I for that matter, but I don't think that is an excuse for saying that it is ok behaviour.

Now the fact that you took offence to a belief of Abel's is not itself reflective of disrespect on his part. There are beliefs that I hold that granted I have not put out there because I understand that to others they would be offensive, but the fact that I hold those opinions are not held on my behalf out of disrespect for others in just so happens that it is an unavoidable outcome.

Just to clarify I don't actually let these things effect me any more, I am past all that, I only said I feel dishonoured as an example, I really couldn't care less what others think except for the almighty. I probably should have said that at the time, but I forgot, so oh well, we can move on.

Science is not simply the study of Gods word, to say that maybe some scientist try to find the answer outside of God is not accurate. You ask any and by any I mean by and large the vast majority of scientist if science is a secular field of study and
You will find that answer is yes.

Just because a majority believe something does not make it truth.

Does that mean that there are no scientist who beleive to some compacity in God, of course not, but science is answering questions about the universe, the Big Bang ect completely devoid of God in the equation.

If God is everything and all comes from him then I will have to disagree, because I believe in God, everything that science studies is the study of him, just as the Bibe says it is. Granted that a person of non belief may not believe the same about science as I do, but that in no way makes him right, I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

To say that it is a naturalistic Science and God created nature, so therefore it is studying Gods natural enviroment is like telling a scientist who denies the existence of God, that he must believe in God because he is studying Gods natural enviroment. I think we can both imagine the scientists response.

Who cares what their response is, they do not have a monopoly on truth.

The fact of the matter is, no matter how many Christians tie in evolution into their beliefs, it has had a massive detrimental effect on people relying on God instead of man to answer the question of 'why are we here, how did we get here ect'.
There have been enough independent studies to show how many people have rejected not only Christianity but religion in favour of evolutionary beliefs. Studies have also shown in the last hundred years the drop by percentage of scientists who claim to believe in God, there has been a fast and steady decline. I was just looking at a study the other day, I will try and find it and attach, but I don't think its really necessary, I think most people would logically see that scientist 100 years ago, 50 years ago up to the modern day have by and large turned to secular scientific beliefs completly outside of God.
Does that mean evolution is inaccurate, of course not, what it does mean is the theory of evolution has had the effect of causing multitudes of people to turn away from God. The burning question of 'why are we here' has been answered through science (not definitively, but convincingly enough for many) so as to deny the existence of God. The fact that you and many Chrsitians also believe in evolution in no way diminishes the fact that the vast majority of scientist would say and the scientific community as a whole (I have a whole heap of quotes from scientists and scientific communities) that science has proved that the universe, earth and humans were created by chance and completely outside of the will of God. Or as one scientist put it 'God is dead'.

Now here is a great topic for another thread, I will move it there to look at this in more detail.