Does Evolution and Science draw people away from God?

[PaulSacramento]

You honestly want me to do the leg work for you?

[Audie]

You honestly want me to do the leg work for you?

No, I will be satisfied with my opinion which is opposite to your opinion.
https://warosu.org/data/tg/img/0256/77/ ... 845494.jpg

[PaulSacramento]

You honestly want me to do the leg work for you?

No, I will be satisfied with my opinion which is opposite to your opinion.
https://warosu.org/data/tg/img/0256/77/ ... 845494.jpg

Slacker.

[Audie]

You honestly want me to do the leg work for you?

No, I will be satisfied with my opinion which is opposite to your opinion.
https://warosu.org/data/tg/img/0256/77/ ... 845494.jpg

Slacker.

name caller

[dfnj]

Audie wrote:
RE: "Educated people dont tend to be fundamentalists. Science has certainly shown that some literal radings of the bible simply are not true. Im sure some people move away from those interpretations, sometimes, when they see that they are mistaken."

Yes, there are some Christians who read the Bible as literal truth. But most people today read the Bible as metaphor not to be taken out of the historical context in which it was written. The fundamental message and truth that morality is important is independent of the context of history.

"Educated people" do not seem to be any better than anyone else. Have you ever seen graduate students compete for project funding? It can't be more barbaric.

RE: "Last Thursdayism or "embedded age" is a sorry explanation, dont you think?"

What I think is not the point. The point is why is evolution even debated if a Christian believes in an omnipotent God who is capable of Thursdayism. I wasn't advocating Thursdayism.

RE: "The faith you refer to seems to me to be kind of the other way around. Its looks to me more like a stunning (and most disrespectful) faith in themselves. As in I read the Bible I say it means a literal world wide flood and I am right. Never mind that there so very plainly was not, and that to say God committed such a heinous act is not real respectful of such God as there may be."

Each of us interprets the Bible differently. I tend to avoid judging God because I do not like to be judged myself.

RE: "Couldnt agree with you less. Now, I will agree that it is taught badly, but its not like everyone will go to college. Also, I object in principle to the idea that controversy is to be avoided. I think some people NEED to be upset. "

So you feel compelled to be a jerk because it upsets other people. Do you then agree or disagree with my statement there is plenty of science that can be taught in K-12 outside of the theory of evolution? I would be happy if students actually learned how to develop and test theories rather than read dumbed down science history found in Texas school books. Science in schools doesn't teach students how to author their own scientific paper. Science history is boring just like art history.

RE: "Oh, I dont know. Speaking as a "minority", the amount of politically correct pussyfooting I encounter is whats breathtaking. And again, I favour teaching and discussing controversial things. Think thru why you do not, and get back to us? "

I disagree with you on this. I think being humble to the point of piety with other people's feelings is exactly what we are lacking in today's F U society. I happen to think the theory of evolution is one the most profound and true things I've ever studied. But I don't feel compelled to shove it into other people's faces when there are plenty of other less controversial subjects.

RE: "Speaking as a non citizen of the USA, and an atheist besides, I never minded the oath of allegiance."

There are a lot of atheists who are offended by the "under God" part of the pledge. Again, my feeling is anything to fight the F U society we live in is a good thing. It seems to me if people of faith are threatened by taking the words "under God" out of the pledge and restoring it to its original form then that says more about their lack of faith than anything else.

RE: "Well, I say pooey on those who choose to be or pretend to be "offended". Honestly, people in America!"

People pretend to be atheists until they find themselves in a fox hole surrounded by mortar fire.

RE: "Now, I dont think there is a God to be turned away from, but as for wanting to be like the nominal Christians that I generally observe, heck no. No way. "

There is no evidence for the existence of God as far as I can tell. People who believe in God do so by choice based not on evidence or rational explanation.

RE: "There are a few Christians who I greatly admire for their faith as it is expressed in their daily life. A very few. "

It is pretty grim nowadays.

RE: "Take if from me, if you will, an atheist observer of Christians. Its Christians who make me not want to be a Christian. Simple.

It's funny how people are about faith. If you are walking across the room with a priceless painting you behave and act a certain way. I think the most basic message of the Bible and Christianity is to treat each person around us like a priceless painting. I respect your atheistic views although my point of view is very much different than yours in my relationship to the word God.

[Danieltwotwenty]

You honestly want me to do the leg work for you?

No, I will be satisfied with my opinion which is opposite to your opinion.
https://warosu.org/data/tg/img/0256/77/ ... 845494.jpg

Slacker.

name caller

She's got you there mate.

[Audie]

got myself too

[abelcainsbrother]

Just because there are scientists who believe in God that accept evolution does not mean evolution draws men to God,I see how evolution has increased atheism and a lack of faith in God's word and I see it as a lie from Satan the father of lies and this is why evolution cannot and has never been demonstrated by any scientist,I personally expect better from scientists when it comes to evidence that life evolves instead of scientific rhetoric it is true,for I have found other things in science that have been demonstrated but not life evolves after 150 years of believing it.

I'm also upset about how the evidence in this earth that really proves the bible true about there being a former world on this earth full of life until it perished in Lucifer's flood which was a much more severe flood than Noah's flood and all life perished in it ,well the evidence in this earth that proves it true was hijacked away from Christians and made to fit into evolution and yet scientists cannot even demonstrate life evolves.

Let me tell you the truth all of them fossils,coal and oil and evidence that shows most life that has existed went extinct,plus the fact deserts used to be flush with trees,vegetation,etc is evidence that a former world full of life perished in Lucifer's flood long before this word was created and your knowledge of comets bringing water to the earth covering it with water flooding it until the continents rose up and snow ball earth prove Lucifer's flood true in which the heavens and earth was flooded and sun light,star light was blocked out prove it and all life died,it did not survive this flood,all life died and is extinct,then God created this world on the earth.

This is the truth and I have given evidence to prove it and there is even more evidence.Stop looking at it from an evolution perspective when you cannot even demonstrate life evolves.Evolution is over!

[Danieltwotwenty]

Just because there are scientists who believe in God that accept evolution does not mean evolution draws men to God,I see how evolution has increased atheism and a lack of faith in God's word and I see it as a lie from Satan the father of lies and this is why evolution cannot and has never been demonstrated by any scientist,I personally expect better from scientists when it comes to evidence that life evolves instead of rhetoric it is true,for I have found other things in science that have been demonstrated but not life evolves.

[neo-x]

Just because there are scientists who believe in God that accept evolution does not mean evolution draws men to God,I see how evolution has increased atheism and a lack of faith in God's word and I see it as a lie from Satan the father of lies and this is why evolution cannot and has never been demonstrated by any scientist,I personally expect better from scientists when it comes to evidence that life evolves instead of scientific rhetoric it is true,for I have found other things in science that have been demonstrated but not life evolves after 150 years of believing it.

I'm also upset about how the evidence in this earth that really proves the bible true about there being a former world on this earth full of life until it perished in Lucifer's flood which was a much more severe flood than Noah's flood and all life perished in it ,well the evidence in this earth that proves it true was hijacked away from Christians and made to fit into evolution and yet scientists cannot even demonstrate life evolves.

Let me tell you the truth all of them fossils,coal and oil and evidence that shows most life that has existed went extinct,plus the fact deserts used to be flush with trees,vegetation,etc is evidence that a former world full of life perished in Lucifer's flood long before this word was created and your knowledge of comets bringing water to the earth covering it with water flooding it until the continents rose up and snow ball earth prove Lucifer's flood true in which the heavens and earth was flooded and sun light,star light was blocked out prove it and all life died,it did not survive this flood,all life died and is extinct,then God created this world on the earth.

This is the truth and I have given evidence to prove it and there is even more evidence.Stop looking at it from an evolution perspective when you cannot even demonstrate life evolves.Evolution is over!

You know what! It was my fault to even engage in the debate with you, now that I see how far you are in the anti-evolution camp and quite sincere in your faith in the gap theory (even though I think it has no foundation in the bible). You carry on, the way I see it, your faith is somewhat centered to all of this, perhaps evolution is a stumbling block for you, I don't know, but its alright with me. You don't admit evolution, fine. So what? Peace to you.

[Silvertusk]

The fact of the matter is, no matter how many Christians tie in evolution into their beliefs, it has had a massive detrimental effect on people relying on God instead of man to answer the question of 'why are we here, how did we get here ect'.

We have always relied on man for these questions, God has been oh so silent on these matters, ancient man wrote the books of the Bible and modern man has interpreted them into beliefs concerning the creation of everything, how is this any different from using science to study what God has already created.

There have been enough independent studies to show how many people have rejected not only Christianity but religion in favour of evolutionary beliefs. Studies have also shown in the last hundred years the drop by percentage of scientists who claim to believe in God, there has been a fast and steady decline. I was just looking at a study the other day, I will try and find it and attach, but I don't think its really necessary, I think most people would logically see that scientist 100 years ago, 50 years ago up to the modern day have by and large turned to secular scientific beliefs completly outside of God. Does that mean evolution is inaccurate, of course not, what it does mean is the theory of evolution has had the effect of causing multitudes of people to turn away from God.

I would doubt that it has anything to do with actual science as a method of studying the world around us, I think personally the reason Christendom is in decline is because of certain creation ministries pushing people away with their narrow view of the Bible. Pretty much every young atheist I have met has said they left religion because of the Y.E.C approach of their church (don't get me wrong there is nothing wrong with Y.E.C, but there is something wrong with a dogmatic approach to it) and the rejection of modern science, does this mean that Y.E.C is drawing people away from Christ, I don't think so. Unfortunately these young Christians didn't realise they could reconcile their beliefs about the world with their belief in God quite easily, but alas the damage has already been done by well meaning but misguided people. Really this is just blame shifting, science isn't at fault for this, people are at fault for this, we are broken and it is we that drive people away from Christ. The problem with these studies is that they can be biased, depending how how much information they admit and how much information they omit, what type of questions they asked, and what questions they decided not to ask, and a whole other host of other possibilities that could potentially colour the results. I for one prefer to actually ask people and I would seriously call into question the results of any study that claimed that science or evolution turned people away from God, based on my own life experiences I have found this to be far from true. I highly doubt there is a single reason for people leaving the faith, I think it is way over simplifying the problem and correlation does not always equal causation.

I have my own story of how science and evolution drew me to God and I am not the only one, many, many other people share the same story as myself, so there is that also, how come it drives some people away but draws others closer, to me that screams that it actually has nothing to do with science but has more to do with the actual people themselves. With that same line of reasoning you could say the Bible, philosophy, logic, reason etc.... pull people away from God, but we know that is just ridicules in the extreme. [1Corinthians 1:18] indicates that it is not logic or reason that drives people away, they are blind and cannot see.

I think people just need to take responsibility for their actions, both on behalf of believers and non believers and stop blaming everything else.

The burning question of 'why are we here' has been answered through science (not definitively, but convincingly enough for many) so as to deny the existence of God. The fact that you and many Chrsitians also believe in evolution in no way diminishes the fact that the vast majority of scientist would say and the scientific community as a whole (I have a whole heap of quotes from scientists and scientific communities) that science has proved that the universe, earth and humans were created by chance and completely outside of the will of God. Or as one scientist put it 'God is dead'.

Science deals with the how not the why, science hasn't and cannot prove why we are here, it is just not a subject that science deals with. You have quotes from scientists, so what, they are people with opinions based on their own beliefs, they mean nothing to actual science. You seem to be conflating science with beliefs or more to the point the beliefs of people who use science, people's beliefs are not science, science is just a method of discovering how the world works, it can no more answer why questions than a new born baby can. Science actually points towards a creator, everything we discover about this universe screams an intelligent mind behind it all, the complexity, the fine tuning, there being a beginning at the bang, the symmetry etc... etc.... etc.... Evolution to me points at an intelligent mind that has painted a masterpiece and has had me in awe at the powerful imagination of our creator, I find it exquisitely beautiful.


I am keenly interested to hear other's thoughts on this subject, especially from fellow T.E's.

Science as you percieve it points a creator, as it should
But I disagree, science has attempted to answer the question 'why' and the answer is by pure chance. The 'why' is there is no 'why'. Scientists conclude that we don't have a real purpose any more than a plant, bird or insect. We are animals that work no different, although more evolutionary superior to other species, maximising what causes pleasure and minimising that which brings pain.
For the most part christians have become the laughing stock of the academic, scientific circles. Which you touched on as to why a YEC belief has hampered in some ways not helped. So the alternative has been looking for the 'gaps' in the Big Bang and evolution, scientific theories and claiming that there 'proof' of God lies. Whether it be who or what was responsible in those moments before the Big Bang, how something comes from nothing ect. God of the gaps.
Yet here we have an infinite God, with infinite knowledge, omniscient and man who is finite. It is impossible for the finite to even start to grasp the infinite. We can try, give it a damn good educated go, but we do not come close to 'cutting the mustard'. Yet in our finite knowledge we have wedged an infinite God into the 'gaps' of our theories. As times goes by, we will continue to 'fit Him in' where our finite knowledge takes us and continue down the 'yellow brick road' but never seriously moving any closer, as that would be theoretically impossible.

Here is, on a more personal note, where my conundrum lies. I am going back to uni to finish a psychology degree and gain my honours so I can be a practising clinical psychologist. The science of the mind and behaviour. But yet I have to reconcile my passion with a field that attempts to answers questions completely outside of God. My bigger passion. My studies lead me into a field that answers a belief in God as an evolutionary by product. Love The Lord with all your mind, all your heart and all your soul. Yes it is a study of the mind, given to us by God, but I assure you in those studies, in the scientific field of psychology God is not present, in fact He is explained away by evolutionary psychology.

Best of luck on your course Melanie.

One point I would say though is that if evolution is the reason that we believe in God - that does not invalidate the truth of God himself - That would be committing the genetic fallacy.

[Silvertusk]

I don't see it like you do,evolution has increased atheism in our society

Has it though? Other than assertion is there any actual proof that atheism is on the increase? I think over all Christianity on a world wide scale is having a boom and the only reason atheism seems to be on the rise in western countries is that more people are openly atheist, back a few years it could be dangerous for an atheist to be out in the open with their beliefs or at the very least it would make their life difficult, so naturally there were a lot more pew warmers back then, so it stands to reason that western countries have an increase in atheism in recent years, but only due to being open about it. This is a case of correlation does not always equal causation, I mean sure there may be some who decided atheism due to some sort of scientific discovery but by and large I think they would be a minority. There are plenty of other reasons why the church is in decline in the west which I won't post for now as I don't want to get bogged down in to much information.

and since Christians have had no answer really to refute it certian Christians have learned how to deal with it

I will ignore this part as it is just biased opinion and not based on any facts whatsoever.

,and have accepted it despite the lack of real evidence,

Hey if you can provide a model with the explanatory power that evolution has and it can make predictions that evolution can and we can test, repeat and observe those predictions then show me. Until that time based on the current evidence, evolution seems to be the winning theory that actually works.

have accepted it nonetheless then make it fit into God's word.

Well that all depends on which T.E you ask, this is a bit of a generalisation and not one that is applicable to me.

But they must deny certain parts of the bible

This is just biased opinion again, we only deny your interpretation of the Bible, we could easily say the exact same thing about yourself as Jac has already shown you that your interpretation may not be correct. After all we believe God's word and not yours and we don't believe God's word says what you think it means.

and have compromised God's word saying the bible is not a science book

If the Bible was meant to be a science book as you claim then why are we making new discoveries everyday, if all we needed was the Bible there would be no discoveries to be made. For a science book it isn't very comprehensive, I would expect better from an omnipotent God. I think we can safely conclude that being a science book was never it's intention.

,we don't have to take genesis literally,

Agreed Seriously though, the people who's language it is written in don't even take it literally, I have spoken to quite a few Rabbi's and Jewish people over the years and not one of them so far has said it has to be literal. I am sure there are Jewish people who do take it literally, but I have yet to meet them.

they choose which to accept and which not to even when no scientist can demonstrate life evolves.

You do realise that humans are still evolving, I actually have an extra tendon in my wrist, I am like 1 in 100,000(I think, can't remember exact numbers) (It's actually not a beneficial trait and causes me grief, especially on the guitar). We are slowly losing our wisdom teeth, our fingers are getting longer, our brains believe it or not are actully shrinking and our height is shrinking, there are probably many, many other things that have changed for the human race in recorded history. We have evolved, we are still evolving currently and there is a mountain of evidence for it.[/quote


Actually - I think that is more like micro-evolution, and possibly will not amount to much - If evolution is true I think we pretty much halted it for us as we change our environment to suit us rather than the other way round - sure there might be small chemical or biological changes but as we control our environment more and more and physical changes I think will be non-existance.

[Audie]

Audie wrote:
RE: "Educated people dont tend to be fundamentalists. Science has certainly shown that some literal radings of the bible simply are not true. Im sure some people move away from those interpretations, sometimes, when they see that they are mistaken."

Yes, there are some Christians who read the Bible as literal truth. But most people today read the Bible as metaphor not to be taken out of the historical context in which it was written. The fundamental message and truth that morality is important is independent of the context of history.

"Educated people" do not seem to be any better than anyone else. Have you ever seen graduate students compete for project funding? It can't be more barbaric.

RE: "Last Thursdayism or "embedded age" is a sorry explanation, dont you think?"

What I think is not the point. The point is why is evolution even debated if a Christian believes in an omnipotent God who is capable of Thursdayism. I wasn't advocating Thursdayism.

RE: "The faith you refer to seems to me to be kind of the other way around. Its looks to me more like a stunning (and most disrespectful) faith in themselves. As in I read the Bible I say it means a literal world wide flood and I am right. Never mind that there so very plainly was not, and that to say God committed such a heinous act is not real respectful of such God as there may be."

Each of us interprets the Bible differently. I tend to avoid judging God because I do not like to be judged myself.

RE: "Couldnt agree with you less. Now, I will agree that it is taught badly, but its not like everyone will go to college. Also, I object in principle to the idea that controversy is to be avoided. I think some people NEED to be upset. "

So you feel compelled to be a jerk because it upsets other people. Do you then agree or disagree with my statement there is plenty of science that can be taught in K-12 outside of the theory of evolution? I would be happy if students actually learned how to develop and test theories rather than read dumbed down science history found in Texas school books. Science in schools doesn't teach students how to author their own scientific paper. Science history is boring just like art history.

RE: "Oh, I dont know. Speaking as a "minority", the amount of politically correct pussyfooting I encounter is whats breathtaking. And again, I favour teaching and discussing controversial things. Think thru why you do not, and get back to us? "

I disagree with you on this. I think being humble to the point of piety with other people's feelings is exactly what we are lacking in today's F U society. I happen to think the theory of evolution is one the most profound and true things I've ever studied. But I don't feel compelled to shove it into other people's faces when there are plenty of other less controversial subjects.

RE: "Speaking as a non citizen of the USA, and an atheist besides, I never minded the oath of allegiance."

There are a lot of atheists who are offended by the "under God" part of the pledge. Again, my feeling is anything to fight the F U society we live in is a good thing. It seems to me if people of faith are threatened by taking the words "under God" out of the pledge and restoring it to its original form then that says more about their lack of faith than anything else.

RE: "Well, I say pooey on those who choose to be or pretend to be "offended". Honestly, people in America!"

People pretend to be atheists until they find themselves in a fox hole surrounded by mortar fire.

RE: "Now, I dont think there is a God to be turned away from, but as for wanting to be like the nominal Christians that I generally observe, heck no. No way. "

There is no evidence for the existence of God as far as I can tell. People who believe in God do so by choice based not on evidence or rational explanation.

RE: "There are a few Christians who I greatly admire for their faith as it is expressed in their daily life. A very few. "

It is pretty grim nowadays.

RE: "Take if from me, if you will, an atheist observer of Christians. Its Christians who make me not want to be a Christian. Simple.

It's funny how people are about faith. If you are walking across the room with a priceless painting you behave and act a certain way. I think the most basic message of the Bible and Christianity is to treat each person around us like a priceless painting. I respect your atheistic views although my point of view is very much different than yours in my relationship to the word God.

I dont think we are very far apart, once ways of expressing ourselves are worked out.

I certainly dont feel a need to be a jerk! And I agree that science is so badly taught in the USA, its a national disgrace. Dont get me started.

The thing about foxholes was a bit off topic but since you brought it up, the corollary is that there are no Christians when the tanks arrive, as in that they dont stand up and
praise god for granting them an early start on eternal life.

[abelcainsbrother]

You do realise that humans are still evolving, I actually have an extra tendon in my wrist, I am like 1 in 100,000(I think, can't remember exact numbers) (It's actually not a beneficial trait and causes me grief, especially on the guitar). We are slowly losing our wisdom teeth, our fingers are getting longer, our brains believe it or not are actully shrinking and our height is shrinking, there are probably many, many other things that have changed for the human race in recorded history. We have evolved, we are still evolving currently and there is a mountain of evidence for it.[/

There are deformities but these are not evidence life evolves at all.Neither is losing wisdom teeth,have you ever heard the phrase if you don't use it,you lose it? Well this applies to wisdom teeth,you see we were designed for a high fiber diet and this requires chewing,our diets are poor and do not require much chewing and so we lose our wisdom teeth.I have looked at the evidence for evolution and it does seem like a lot to wade through but what I've found is scientific evolution rhetoric more than the evidence shows and demonstrates.

By the way I play the guitar too and I recently got a mandolin I've been trying to play,so far I can play REM's losing my religion on it,the thing is getting it in tune and learning the chords which is different than on a guitar.

[Danieltwotwenty]

You do realise that humans are still evolving, I actually have an extra tendon in my wrist, I am like 1 in 100,000(I think, can't remember exact numbers) (It's actually not a beneficial trait and causes me grief, especially on the guitar). We are slowly losing our wisdom teeth, our fingers are getting longer, our brains believe it or not are actully shrinking and our height is shrinking, there are probably many, many other things that have changed for the human race in recorded history. We have evolved, we are still evolving currently and there is a mountain of evidence for it.[/

There are deformities but these are not evidence life evolves at all.Neither is losing wisdom teeth,have you ever heard the phrase if you don't use it,you lose it? Well this applies to wisdom teeth,you see we were designed for a high fiber diet and this requires chewing,our diets are poor and do not require much chewing and so we lose our wisdom teeth.I have looked at the evidence for evolution and it does seem like a lot to wade through but what I've found is scientific evolution rhetoric more than the evidence shows and demonstrates.

By the way I play the guitar too and I recently got a mandolin I've been trying to play,so far I can play REM's losing my religion on it,the thing is getting it in tune and learning the chords which is different than on a guitar.

I have a Cole Clark Fat Lady One acoustic (Australian made guitar, but you can find them in the states), a Fender squire Telecaster and my second wife (that's what my wife calls it) an American standard Stratocaster 2014 HSS 3 tone burst (saved for two years and sold a guitar to buy it). I have never loved an inanimate object as much as I love that Strat, I can't put it down, I play every night, on weekends, at church services and local events.

I mainly play the blues/rock, but I do dabble in all genres.

Music is a massive part of my life and I couldn't ever go to a church that wouldn't let you play an instrument as a part of worship, I cannot sing and this is how I praise God.

That's cool if you don't find the evidence compelling, I however do and I don't feel that the Bible has anything to say on how the world was created, just why it was.

I am glad however that we can connect on other levels, I did go to a folk jam night once and played along side some mandolins, they are a beautiful instrument.