previous worlds

[Audie]

I see mention sometimes about there having been "previous worlds", sometimes in connection with something called a gap theory. Advanced civilizations that have passed from existence. What is that all about?

[Silvertusk]

Basically it is the theory that there was another time in which the devil and his angels rebelled against God and this occurred between the first and second verse of Genesis - Genesis 1:1 - Genesis 1:2.

This is what William Lane Craig has to say on this matter:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/defender ... ript/s9-04

Gap Interpretation

Let’s go on to the Gap Interpretation. This is a view that was popularized by the old Scofield Reference Bible. It holds that there is a gap between verses 1 and 2 of Genesis chapter 1. “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” and then there is this huge gap of time before God begins to work upon the earth and produce life.5 It holds that during this gap, that is when there was a kind of primordial world and all of the evidence of fossil life, extinct life forms and so forth were of an ancient world that existed prior to verse 2 which came under God’s judgment and was then destroyed. So what is described in verse 2 forward is God’s recreation in effect of the world after a long gap. This view would say that all of the evidence that we have – scientifically and historically – of ancient geological periods, prehistoric life and antiquity is from that pre-gap world that was destroyed by God prior to verse 2.

What might we say by way of assessment of this theory? I think that there could well be a gap of time between verses 1 and 2 in the first chapter. Verse 1 describes, as we’ve seen, God’s creation of the universe as a whole. The heavens and the earth is the way the Hebrew person would describe the universe as a whole. Then in verse 2, the focus radically narrows down to God’s activity upon the earth: “and the earth was without form and void.” It describes how God transforms the earth from a desolate, uninhabitable waste to a place that is fit for man to live in. So there could well be a gap between verse 1 (God’s creation of the world as a whole) and then his transformation of the earth into a habitable ecosystem for human life.

But the idea that there was a prior life world before this one is just utterly foreign to the text. The text is describing God’s initial creation of the biosphere and on each occasion it pronounces God’s work as being good. God saw that it was good. The idea that all of this is just a repeat of something that he has done before has absolutely no warrant in the text. Remember, all of this is supposed to be pre-flood. This is not flood geology. This is prior to Noah. It is saying that prior to verse 2 there was this prehistoric world of animals and geological epics and so forth – maybe even ancient civilizations – that was all destroyed by God. There is simply nothing in the text to support a view like that. In fact, I think that this Gap Interpretation seems to be an example of concordism at its very worst. Remember, concordism is the hermeneutic of trying to read modern science into the text – to try to read the text in accord with modern science rather than reading it as it would have been originally understood and written. It seems that under the pressure of the scientific and historical evidence of prehistoric life and geological time, one reads into the text something that was not at all intended by the author. So I find this interpretation to be hermeneutically unsupportable.

And I agree with him.

[Audie]

Basically it is the theory that there was another time in which the devil and his angels rebelled against God and this occurred between the first and second verse of Genesis - Genesis 1:1 - Genesis 1:2.

This is what William Lane Craig has to say on this matter:

It is saying that prior to verse 2 there was this prehistoric world of animals and geological epics and so forth – maybe even ancient civilizations – that was all destroyed by God.

Good enough. Thanks.

[Kurieuo]

Wow, I have more I disagree with Craig on especially after reading a related link: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/concordism
Don't know why I felt a need to say that because I really don't want to get into what. (I'll keep it secret)

[Katabole]

I disagree with Dr. Craig as well.

Here is a paper I wrote on ruin/reconstruction or gap theory a number of years ago.



Foundation

To understand the correct meaning of the word "Foundation" as utilized in the Greek New Testament, it should be noted that there are two Greek words in the New Testament transliterated as the English word "Foundation". The first is the Greek noun "Themelios" and its corresponding verb "Themelioo". The second is the Greek noun "Katabole" and its corresponding verb "Kataballo."


Foundation

Strong's 2310

themelios (noun)
pronounced as them-el'-ee-os

from a derivative of tithemi 5087; something put down, i.e. a substruction (of a building, etc.), (literally or figuratively):foundation.

The noun Themelios occurs 15 times in the New Testament. It is NEVER used in conjunction with the English word World (Greek Kosmos) or with the English word Earth (Greek Ge).


Strong's 2311

themelioo (verb)
pronounced as them-el-ee-o'-o

from themelios 2310; to lay a basis for, i.e. (literally) erect, or (figuratively) consolidate:(lay the) found(- ation), ground, settle.

The verb Themelioo occurs 6 times in the New Testament. The verb is only once used in conjunction with the earth, in Heb 1:10. A comparison of all these passages will show that these are indeed the proper and regular terms for the English words "to found", "founded" and "foundation".



Strong's 2602

katabole (noun)
pronounced kat-ab-ol-ay'

from kataballo 2598; a deposition, i.e. founding; figuratively, conception:conceive, foundation.

The noun Katabole occurs 11 times in the New Testament.

Strong's 2598

kataballo (verb)
pronounced kat-ab-al'-lo

from kata 2596 and ballo 906; to throw down:cast down, lay.

The verb Kataballo occurs three times in the New Testament. Both katabole and kataballo ARE used in conjunction with the English words world and earth.


The following verses are where Themelios(noun) are used:

Luke 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

Luke 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Luke 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,

Acts 16:26 And suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken: and immediately all the doors were opened, and every one's bands were loosed.

Rom 15:20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man's foundation:

1Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

1Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1Cor 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

Eph 3:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

1Tim 6:19 Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

2Tim 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Heb 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Rev 21:19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;


The following verses are where Themelioo(verb) are used:

Matt 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Luke 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

1Pet 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.


The following verses are where Katabole(noun) are used:

Matt 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

Matt 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Heb 11:11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.

1Pet 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


The following verses are where Kataballo(verb) are used:


2Cor 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

A comparison of all these passages (especially 2Cor 4:9, and Rev 12:10) will show that "foundation" and "founding" are not the proper English translations of these Greek words but the correct translations are "Casting Down", or "Overthrow".

Consistency of hermeneutic therefore, calls for the same translation in Heb. 6:1, where, instead of "not laying again", the rendering should be "not casting down". That is to say, the foundation already laid of repentance, was not to be cast down or overthrown, but was to be left and progress made unto perfection. Accordingly, the noun katabole, derived from, and cognate with the verb kataballo, ought to be transliterated "disruption", or "ruin".

The remarkable thing is that in all occurrences (except Heb 11:11), the word is connected with "the world", and therefore the expression should be rendered "the disruption (or ruin) of the world", clearly referring to the condition indicated in Gen. 1:2, and described in Jer 4:23-26 and 2Pet 3:5,6. For the earth was not created void and without form (Isa 45:18), but it became so, as stated in the Hebrew of Gen 1:2 and confirmed by Jer 4:23-26 and 2Pet 3:6, where "the world that then was by the word of God" (Gen. 1:1), being overflowed with water, perished.

The word "was" at the beginning of Gen 1:2, should be rendered "became". Ginsberg's Massorah confirms this. The word is exactly the same word translated correctly in this verse:

Gen 19:26 But his wife looked back from behind him, and she "became" a pillar of salt.

Lot's wife wasn't a pillar of salt. She BECAME a pillar of salt, just as the perfect age God created in the beginning, was not void and without form or a ruin, but BECAME void and without form, a ruin and a desolation because of Lucifer's overthrow, (Isa 14, Eze 28 and Rev 12).

"The disruption of the world" is an event forming a great dividing line in the dispensations of the ages. In Genesis 1:1 we have the creation of the first age, (2Pet 3:5) but in Genesis 1:2 we have its overthrow, its casting down (katabole), (Jer 4:23-26, 2Pet 3:6).

This is confirmed by a further remarkable fact, that the phrase, which occurs ten times (foundation of the world), is associated with the preposition apo, meaning "from" seven times, and with the preposition pros meaning "before", three times; thus being correctly rendered "from before". The former refers to the kingdom and is connected with the counsels of God; the latter refers to the Mystery (or Secret) and is connected with the purpose of God (See John 17:24, Eph 1:4, 1Pet 1:20).

Ample New Testament testimony is thus given to the profoundly significant fact recorded in Gen. 1:2, that "the earth "Became tohu and bohu" (i.e. waste and desolate; a ruin); and darkness was on the face of the deep", and that the Spirit of God hovered over the waters of the destruction of that age, before the creation of "the heavens and the earth which are now" (2Pet. 3:7). Geologic evidence clearly shows God's creative abilities over vast epochs of time that scientists have broken down into various eras and the physical evidence of coal and of oil as well as fossil records, demonstrates the destruction of God's creations, evidently due to the rebellion of Lucifer.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The six days as mentioned here in Exodus therefore, according to this ruin/reconstruction creation stance, would be the six days from the beginning of the Second heaven and Earth Age(2Pet 3:7), beginning at Gen 1:3.

Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was(BECAME) without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.

KJV with Strong's concordance
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebiblecom/kjvstrongs/

Introduction to the Massorah


The Massorah vol 4
http://www.teachittome.com/seforim2/sef ... orah_6.pdf

[abelcainsbrother]

The gap theory is a scientific theory before evolution became so popular,this is not well known about today because of critics of the gap theory that do not really understand it nor the history of how far it goes back in the church.
With that said Christians of the past believed the bible reveals that there was a former world on this earth that Lucifer ruled over, this world was full of life and had animals,men,cities,etc that Lucifer ruled over from Eden,but Lucifer rebelled against God and caused not only that world and it inhabitants but also a third of the angels of God Rebelled against God,and Lucifer with the angels actually went to heaven and tried to over take God's thrown but were kicked out but severe judgment was poured out by God and this flood he unleashed flooded both the heavens and the earth with water and cut off the sun which caused all life to die.

But God was not finished and after time he decided to create this world but in order to do it he had to restore the heavens and earth so that the earth could sustain life again and this is what is happening in Genesis 1 it is God restoring the earth and the heavens and then creating the life we have in this world,then he creates man and create a new garden of eden for man to rule the earth,this infuriated Lucifer who remembers his ruling days and so he deceived Adam and Eve to diminish their control of the earth.

It was not a bunch of former worlds too only one,you see in the first earth age God tested angels and this earth age is testing man.

[abelcainsbrother]

My scripture verses to back up the gap theory biblically.

Matthew 13:35 "That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet,saying,I will open my mouth in parables;I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world."
Hebrews 1:2 " Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,whom he hath appointed heir of all things,by whom he also made the worlds."

Hebrews 11:3" Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God,so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

2nd Peter 2:5 "And spared not the old world,but saved Noah the eighth person,a preacher of righteousness,bringing in the flood upon the ungodly;"

2nd Peter 3:5-6" For this they willingly are ignorant of,that by the word of God the heavens were of old,and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was perished:" In Noah's flood only the earth was flooded,not the heavens and earth that were of old,this flood caused all life to perish.

Ephesians 3:9 " And to make all men see what is fellowship of the mystery,which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God:who created all things by Jesus Christ:"

Jeremiah 4:23-28"I beheld the earth,and,lo,it was without form and void;and the heavens,and they had no light.I beheld the mountains,and,lo,they trembled,and all the hills moved back and forth.I beheld,and,lo,there was no man,and all the birds of heaven were fled.I beheld,and,lo,the fruitful place was a wilderness,and all the cities were broken down at the presence of the LORD,and by his fierce anger.For thus hath the LORD said,The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.For this shall the earth mourn ,and the heavens above be black:because I have spoken it,I have purposed it,and I will not repent,neither will I turn back from it."

Genesis 1:2 " And the earth was without form and void; and darkness was upon the deep.And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

Genesis 1:9-10 "And God said ,Let the waters under heaven be gathered together unto one place,and let the dry land appear:and it was so.And God called the dry land earth;and the gathering of the waters called he seas: and God saw it was good.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and earth\dry land. The earth was not flooded in the beginning like it is after verse 1.

Isaiah 14:12"How art thou fallen from heaven,O Lucifer, son of the morning!how art thou cut down to the ground which did weaken the nations."
Isaiah 14:17 " That made the world as a wilderness,and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners."

Ezekiel 28:13 " Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;"

[Kurieuo]

The gap theory is a scientific theory before evolution became so popular

How was it so?

[abelcainsbrother]

The gap theory is a scientific theory before evolution became so popular

How was it so?

William Buckland was the very first geology professor at Oxford and he taught the gap theory there.He used the bible and geology to try to prove it true,imagine that today.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#gs_s ... m+buckland

[Audie]

The gap theory is a scientific theory before evolution became so popular,this is not well known about today because of critics of the gap theory that do not really understand it nor the history of how far it goes back in the church.
With that said Christians of the past believed the bible reveals that there was a former world on this earth that Lucifer ruled over, this world was full of life and had animals,men,cities,etc that Lucifer ruled over from Eden,but Lucifer rebelled against God and caused not only that world and it inhabitants but also a third of the angels of God Rebelled against God,and Lucifer with the angels actually went to heaven and tried to over take God's thrown but were kicked out but severe judgment was poured out by God and this flood he unleashed flooded both the heavens and the earth with water and cut off the sun which caused all life to die.

But God was not finished and after time he decided to create this world but in order to do it he had to restore the heavens and earth so that the earth could sustain life again and this is what is happening in Genesis 1 it is God restoring the earth and the heavens and then creating the life we have in this world,then he creates man and create a new garden of eden for man to rule the earth,this infuriated Lucifer who remembers his ruling days and so he deceived Adam and Eve to diminish their control of the earth.

It was not a bunch of former worlds too only one,you see in the first earth age God tested angels and this earth age is testing man.

And the physical evidence......?

[Audie]

The gap theory is a scientific theory before evolution became so popular

How was it so?

William Buckland was the very first geology professor at Oxford and he taught the gap theory there.He used the bible and geology to try to prove it true,imagine that today.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#gs_s ... m+buckland

It is impossible to prove a theory is true, a principle that has been understood for many many years.

[Kurieuo]

The gap theory is a scientific theory before evolution became so popular

How was it so?

William Buckland was the very first geology professor at Oxford and he taught the gap theory there.He used the bible and geology to try to prove it true,imagine that today.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#gs_s ... m+buckland

Buckland likely spoke more freely of his passions in both science and theology.

He looked for concordism between his scientific beliefs (e.g., geology, palaeontology) and theological Christian beliefs (e.g., scriptural interpretation).

What he mentioned in classes may have not caused as much stir then as it would have today.
But, teaching science along side of personal remarks about how such fits in with Scripture... such would have just been the theologian in him and not scientist.
I'm sure he would have been clear in his own mind that the Gap Theory is not science, but rather his theological beliefs (which draws upon natural revelation also as a truth source).

[Kurieuo]

I disagree with Dr. Craig as well.

Well, my reasons are quite different.

Craig in a response re: Concordism, defines it himself quite narrowly as:
"a hermeneutic which advocates interpreting scripture in light of modern science. One attempts to read modern science into the text."
This is misleading.

I'd question whether Concordism is even really a "hermeneutic".
As I see it, it just considers the natural world that we experience to be a source of truth.
Perhaps I have a nuanced definition. Maybe it could be created into a hermeneutic by extreme concordists, but regardless...
We bring all sorts of truth beliefs to bear on Scripture when we read it, whether language, social, experiences, science and the like. It is unavoidable.
No doubt, such colours our interpretation, but this does not mean there is a hermeneutic of "reading the subject into Scripture."

Even the ICBI allow for Concordism in their statements.

So I think it more correct to say that there are different levels to Concordism.
Those who "read science into Scripture" would be extreme or "Strong Concordists".
But, if they do so to the extent that Scriptural meaning is twisted and usurped, than I'd say such "strong concordism" should actually be called "discordism".
Because one should not have to sacrifice real truths science reveals or real truths Scripture reveals.
And this is what YECs and OECs should I think rightfully react to as Christians respecting Scripture.

Craig then says RTB are Concordists based upon the strong definition of Concordism that he gave.
True, I feel a bit strange with the likes of Hugh Ross saying the Bible taught the "big bang" first.
I've always taken God's "stretching out the heavens" or the like to be something intriguing that correlates to an expanding universe (which supports the "big bag").
But, for RTB to claim the Bible actually teaches the "big bang" that is rather grandiose and I always thought they did that for greater affect -- to grab the attention of a reader.
Maybe I am wrong. I certainly don't really believe the Bible teaches the big bang, but rather it may support ideas within it.

RTB themselves would actually disagree with Craig's definition of Concordism being applied to themselves.
Here is what they say about their own views on Concordism: http://www.reasons.org/articles/concordism-under-fire
I respect the thoughts of both Craig and RTB, but I feel Craig's greatly misrepresented RTB here.

Interestingly, Craig wants to reject Concordism but then eat it to some extent in his final paragraph.
To re-cap, at that link I referenced earlier Craig defines Concordism as reading modern science into Scripture, Craig says RTB are Concordists, Craig rejects Concordism and rejects Day-Age, says he isn't entirely sure what he believes but then concludes with Progressive Creation perhaps best integrating biblical and scientific data.
So where does that leave Craig with? Err... with some sort of Concordism? At least he makes mention of perhaps not being clear.

I can't help thinking that Craig is perhaps being political and evasive.
The more I read, the more it seems that Craig dabbles in some form adaptive apologetics.
That is, he adapts his reasoning and message towards whoever it is he is responding to.

To the Muslim, he'll give a more Christian works-based response that a Muslim would more appreciate (as was seen in another thread).
To the person who questions Craig's position on concordism, he'll shape what he believes into a response that they'll hopefully swallow.
I don't like this. It causes confusion. Christians should stand upon truth no matter who likes/dislikes it.
Maybe I'm being hard on Craig here... but it feels that way to me.

If you as a Christian believe A is true, then don't go saying "not A" to accommodate someone.
I will always stick to what I believe. If I do feel a different Christian response would be better received, then I'll mention that other Christians believe "B".
And I have done this with evolution. Other Christians believe in evolution and have accepted Christ.
I don't. They have their reasons and I have mine. What is important is what one believes of Christ first.

[abelcainsbrother]

The gap theory is a scientific theory before evolution became so popular

How was it so?

William Buckland was the very first geology professor at Oxford and he taught the gap theory there.He used the bible and geology to try to prove it true,imagine that today.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#gs_s ... m+buckland

It is impossible to prove a theory is true, a principle that has been understood for many many years.

This kind of thinking I do not agree with and from my perception they only say this for the sake of evolution which is propped up above all other areas of science.You see I think theories can become truth and even a fact with evidence.If I tell you life evolves what kind of evidence would prove it true?You believe in evaporation and yet it is because it can be backed up with evidence that demonstrates it.If I tell you that a former world full of life existed on this earth that perished before this world was here what kind of evidence could prove it?I would think we would need evidence of an old earth and evidence that alot of life died and is extinct now which is what we find in the earth.

[RickD]

ACB wrote:
...If I tell you that a former world full of life existed on this earth that perished before this world was here what kind of evidence could prove it?I would think we would need evidence of an old earth and evidence that alot of life died and is extinct now which is what we find in the earth.

You do realize that doesn't prove the gap theory, don't you?

Evidence of an old earth, and evidence of a lot of things that died, just points to an old earth, and a lot of dead things.