Kenny wrote:
No. I’ve made it clear I don’t believe OM exist and I’ve also made it clear how I know something is right or wrong. You're just putting up a "smoke screen" in an effort to get outta answering my question.
Kenny, it's not a smoke screen. You didn't ask me a question. On 01/19/15 at 6:47pm you asked Rick a question. Check it out.
And no, you've not made it clear. You've simply said it's your opinion. Not "HOW" you know something is right or wrong.
I never said anything about the bible being the source, I said Jesus/God
You said, Jesus/God and the Bible. But, let's not pick nits. It doesn't change that how we come to know morality is different than how we know whether objective moral values and duties exist. You say you understand the distinctions, but if you did, you wouldn't make this statement. Yes, I believe that the God of the Bible is the same as the god of natural theology. But that is my conclusion, not what we are arguing for. For the umpteenth time, the argument isn't, "OM exist, therefore the Bible is true."
Why would I try to convince you the Bible is true if you reject theism and OM? It doesn't follow. So, it would be nice if you would stop repeating this error even after it is pointed out to you multiple times.
You care because that’s what you believe.
Tisk, tisk. I don't care because that's what I believe. Kenny, I care because what I believe (morals are objective) DEMANDS it. I am consistently following my belief (that OM exists) to its logical ends. Are you? No. My belief acknowledges OM, yours does not. Therefore, for you, it's all subjective. Really, really, subjective. Meaning no opinion on morality holds more weight than any other. To state otherwise is to smuggle in OM. Yet, you are saying that your opinion on morality is right and mine (that morality is objectively grounded) is wrong. Odd, because that is an objective truth claim concerning morality. You are entitled to your opinion, but opinions have consequences, and you have consistently dodged the implications of your opinions.
You are wrong and this has nothing to do with the question at hand
How am I wrong? Making bald assertions isn't an argument. It has plenty to do with the question at hand. Human value is interwoven with OM.
*No it’s not futile; we agreed if morality were objective, a source is required.
*We agreed you believe Jesus/God as described in the Bible is this source
and I simply asked what you would say to the guy who sees some other God as the source of morality. Now why is it so difficult to get a straight answer from you concerning this?
If you don’t have an answer, say so! If it is a matter of blind faith, say so! I can respect that.
Sam Harris rejects a transcendent source of OM, but accepts OM nontheless.
What I would say to some guy would be a completely different argument. There are a lot of things I would ask and say. If someone already assumes OM, then we can begin to analyze our particular positions to see if they line up. The point though is that we are at least starting on common ground. An argument for theism is different than arguing for Christianity or the veracity of the Bible.
What questions have you asked me that I haven’t answered?
Kenny, just within these latest responses you haven't answered. Perhaps you have answered these in the past.
I’ve answered this question hundred times already; I say it’s wrong recognizing I am expressing my subjective opinion
Kenny, nothing personal, but that's not an answer. Saying, "that's my opinion" is not an answer.
-I have a pet monkey who craps diamonds.
-No you don't.
-Well, that's my opinion.
You haven't
explained your subjective morality, or owned the implications of it.
Jlay
You either:
conform, and agree that torturing puppies for fun is a good thing.
Ken
No
No? Why not?
Oh, let me guess, your opinion.
Yes I can say it’s wrong. I do this all the time! In the real world everybody complains about laws they don’t agree with
Sure. But then you MUST (if you are consistent) affirm the opposite. You can also say it's right. If you are employing SM you can't say that something is ALWAYS wrong, even for yourself. That is to again smuggle in OM.
Nothing wrong with that!
So good can be evil and evil good? In other words it's arbitrary. So, if someone calls you evil, you just shrug it off as meaningless?
The base is subjective.
So, it CAN be good and virtuous to torture puppies, forcibly rape someone, or pursue a career in human trafficking?
You are wrong. Objective morality is not defined that way. I say it is wrong to slaughter puppies/dogs, but it is okay to slaughter rats. If morality is objective, what do you say to the guy who says it is okay to slaughter puppies/dogs but wrong to slaughter rats? Are exterminators evil?
I'm wrong? No I'm not, I'm right. The person who denies OM, telling me "I'm wrong." Hilarious.
OK, define OM?
How do you define what you reject? This is really becoming ridiculous.
I think the exterminator question is a good one. But again, this isn't an ontological question. It's a dilemma. If OM don't exist then there is no dilemma. Kill dogs, cats, people, rats. It's all the same.
What's the difference in spraying an ant hill and Hitler gassing thousands of Jews? Opinion?
If someone kills any living thing for pleasure then it's sadistic. And that is objectively wrong.
Because you cannot demonstrate that it is wrong. Can you explain why it is okay to kill cockroaches and rats but not okay to kill dogs and cats?
I just did demonstrate it, unless of course that you can show me that torturing puppies for pleasure is a good thing. If morality is only subjective, then you should be able to demonstrate (clearly, not just state "it's an opinion.") that torturing puppies for pleasure CAN be virtuous.
-“The Bible treated allegorically becomes putty in the hands of the exegete.” John Walvoord
"I'm not saying scientists don't overstate their results. They do. And it's understandable, too...If you spend years working toward a certain goal and make no progress, of course you are going to spin your results in a positive light." Ivellious