rapture

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:34 pm

Then you make Paul a liar because he says there is one that the body has to be raised and changed into an immortal one. There has to be a rapture otherwise we are dead in our sins. Is Paul lying?

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 1:15 pm

I just want to make sure we are on the Same page
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Puritan is saying the Last Trump is when Jesus Comes. This Passage above talks about when the Dead are Raised in the Twinkling of an Eye. If it is the Dead it is not the Living! It says the Dead shall be raised incorruptible and we as the living shall be changed. Does that mean the Rapture and if so why does it talk about the Last Trump?

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 4:55 pm

Why does Paul say "we shall not all sleep but shall be changed in the twinkling of an eye?" It sure looks to me that the rapture or the ressurection whatever you want to call it was not meant just for the dead! If you notice the original language the word "sleep" is a kind word for death. That means that not all of us will die! It sounds like Purtian Lad says the resurrection happened some time ago but when if it wasnt 70ad? Wouldn't history have recorded the plagues of Revelation if it did happen then? I don't see how Christ could have returned anytime in the past whenever it could have been. I suggest that there's more evidence for post-trib than that view. Of course I hold to the pre-trib view. Thats what Paul means by the "blessed hope" in Titus 3:7.

BTW I inadvertanly closed that one thread and I pushed the wrong button sorry about that!

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:22 pm

Wayne,

The problem isn't with the idea that those who are alive at the time of the resurrection will be changed, (That is a pretty broad definition of the rapture.) The problem is that you insist that this all takes place before the Great Tribulation, when neither 1 Thess. 4 nor 1 Cor. 15 mention anything about a tribulation period, nor anyone getting left behind. The Bible clearly says that the resurrection takes place at the last trump, on the last day, at the end of days. There is simple no room for a future tribulation period after this event. It is all over except for the final judgment.

I'm getting ready to go on vacation, but I will post more when I return.

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:41 pm

There has to be a rapture or a ressurection. All of those passages insist that the rapture happens first and then the tribulation. It has to be pre-trib otherwise all men will be destroyed according to Matt 24. Yet Paul says that we shall not all die. Is Paul lying? How is that possible if the rapture is post trib?

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:43 pm

Have a good time!

Believer · Post by **Believer** » Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:45 pm

How's this, God told me to read Matthew chapter 24 when I didn't know what it was about, yet I always had feelings that something bad is going to happen and still do. This confirms what happens in that chapter.

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Sat Sep 03, 2005 11:31 am

It must be good if you're awake at 4am! I often open to a passage of he Bible and its what I need to see. Its like the Holy Spirit directs me to the page.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:59 am

Not that I disagree Entirely with what you are saying Wayne. It is just that I want to make sure you understand what Puritan is saying. If one can Understand both sides of the Argument then the better you can Argue your side

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:08 pm

It sounds to me like he is now defending the post trib view which is fine but I wish he would make up his mind. He has said in the past that the resurec tion had already happened. Maybe he realized that wasn't possible.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:41 pm

waynes world wrote:It sounds to me like he is now defending the post trib view which is fine but I wish he would make up his mind. He has said in the past that the resurec tion had already happened. Maybe he realized that wasn't possible.

Can you find where he said that? From what I have read he believes in the Resurection. However he believes the Tribulation as you and I call it has already come and Gone. He however does not believe in the Rapture I guess what you can say is he Believes the Resurrection and Judgement are basically all at the Same time. There is just no Rapture as we believe there is!

The Scripture Above
1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

This is not about the Rapture but the Resurrection. And where we would associate a Scripture to the Rapture he would associate it to the Resurrection.

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:08 am

I believe the rapture happens before the judgement. Thats what the pre-trib view means. I also think that the resurection and the rapture are the same thing. we get too hung up on sematics. why doews the term "rapture'' have to have a bad rap? It was meant to give the Christian hope. My minister speaks a lot about the end times and is a pre-tribber like me and he says that whenever a passage talks about a second coming of Christ it is always about judgment and never reward. Jesus actually returns in the clouds for the saints but he never touches the ground. Thats a different time than the time he returns in judgement and touches the ground and that is what I thin he meant in Matt 24. There will be some will be saved during the 7 year period and will escape death and join the rest of us who are returning with Christ in glory.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 12:22 pm

Hey Wayne and Bizzt.

Bizzt is correct about what I beleive as a preterist. Let me outline completely what I believe (and why) so that this may clear up much confusion.

1.) Jesus's prophecy in Matthew 24 was not about a rapture, a resurrection, or any future event. It was about the Great Tribulation, which describes the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. These events happened within the apostles' generation (Matthew 24:34).

2.) Revelation (at least most of it) is also about the event's of 70 AD. Jerusalem (The Great Whore - God's unfaithful wife) was destroyed by Rome (The Beast). God takes a new bride, the church (The New Jerusalem, which is the mother of us all).

3.) The so-called "pre-trib" proof texts (1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15) make no mention of a future tribulation period. In fact, both suggest that the Resurrection takes place BEFORE any "calling up" or "change" takes place. For Ex. 1 Thess. 4:17 is supposedly about a "pre-trib" rapture, yet it clearly takes place AFTER the dead in Christ rise. That, in turn, takes place on "the last day" (John 6:39, 40, 44; Dan. 12:13).

In conclusion, there is no reason to believe that the "great tribulation" is a future event. When Christ returns, history will end (2 Peter 3:10). There will be a resurrection (our blessed hope) and a final judgment. This, however, will only happen after He has "put ALL enemies under His feet". The church will not fail in carrying out the Great Commission, but will succeed in making disciples of all nations (Psalm 22:27-28 and many others.)

Hope this summary clears up the confusion. However, I'm sure that we'll be debating some of the fine points.

bizzt · Post by **bizzt** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:22 pm

puritan lad wrote:Hey Wayne and Bizzt.

Bizzt is correct about what I beleive as a preterist. Let me outline completely what I believe (and why) so that this may clear up much confusion.

1.) Jesus's prophecy in Matthew 24 was not about a rapture, a resurrection, or any future event. It was about the Great Tribulation, which describes the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. These events happened within the apostles' generation (Matthew 24:34).

2.) Revelation (at least most of it) is also about the event's of 70 AD. Jerusalem (The Great Whore - God's unfaithful wife) was destroyed by Rome (The Beast). God takes a new bride, the church (The New Jerusalem, which is the mother of us all).

3.) The so-called "pre-trib" proof texts (1 Thess. 4 and 1 Cor. 15) make no mention of a future tribulation period. In fact, both suggest that the Resurrection takes place BEFORE any "calling up" or "change" takes place. For Ex. 1 Thess. 4:17 is supposedly about a "pre-trib" rapture, yet it clearly takes place AFTER the dead in Christ rise. That, in turn, takes place on "the last day" (John 6:39, 40, 44; Dan. 12:13).

In conclusion, there is no reason to believe that the "great tribulation" is a future event. When Christ returns, history will end (2 Peter 3:10). There will be a resurrection (our blessed hope) and a final judgment. This, however, will only happen after He has "put ALL enemies under His feet". The church will not fail in carrying out the Great Commission, but will succeed in making disciples of all nations (Psalm 22:27-28 and many others.)

Hope this summary clears up the confusion. However, I'm sure that we'll be debating some of the fine points.

That is Very Interesting Puritan and Thanks for Clearing that up! BTW welcome back and I hope you had a Great Vacation!

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:02 pm

I hope you had fun too PL but there is no evidence that any resurection happened at any time in the past.It would seem that the writings in history would have covered such an event. Also I have yet to have any preterist explain how any of the plagues in Revelation could have happened in any time in the past. The Corinthians were preterists too and Paul addressed that issue directly in i Cor 15. He is telling them that the rapture hadn't happened yet. All the commentaries I have seen say that that was the concern of the early church. The rapture is either pre-trib or post trib but it definately has not happened yet.