Does the forum believe in the rapture??

[Philip]

Pete: I seriously wonder how much value there is in diving into the details of eschatology beyond what is necessary to know to be personally ready for Jesus to return in 5 minutes and to know to serve with the vision that such service could be needed for another 5 centuries.

Ding, ding, ding!!! We hava a winner! There are just too many unknown variables about the prophecies concerning the end of the age, and each proposed scenario out there depends and turns upon key, currently unknowable things - things that AREN'T POSSIBLE to presently know. But, when the time draws closer, we'll probably have a better understanding of such things, as ONLY then will the prophecies begin to come into better focus and understanding. Whether such future events begin next week or a thousand years from now, our job and focus should merely be to be prepared and to help others be ready, for whenever the time comes that God begins fulfilling what He long ago had prophecied.

This explains the many of the uncertainties and variables and is not committed to any one certain position: http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible ... iscussion/

EVERY end-times school of thought necessarily has suppositions and conjecture that are based upon unknowable things. Yet it's interesting to speculate and study the prophecies. Oh, and it sure sells a lot of books. Other than those, well, I vote of a PRE-TRIB rapture .

[abelcainsbrother]

DON’T FLY AWAY

WILL WHAT DOES THAT MEAN ? DON’T FLY AWAY, WILL LET’S FIND OUT

IN THE BOOK OF MATTHEW 24, MARK 13, AND LUKE 21.

AND MANY MANY OTHER PLACES IN THE BIBLE, IT IS STATED, BEWARE WATCH OUT, DON'T LET ANYONE DECEIVE YOU, BELOVED, THERE IS ONE WARNING JESUS GIVES THAT I DON'T WANT YOU TO EVER FORGET.

THIS WARNING IS GIVEN TO US IN MATTHEW 24:4. WATCH OUT THAT NO ONE DECEIVES YOU, BY THOSE COMING IN MY NAME.

WELL WHO IS JESUS TALKING ABOUT HERE? IT IS YOUR (CHRISTIANS), AND YOUR PASTORS, AND YOUR TEACHERS. THOSE ONES THAT GIVE YOU ONE VERSE, AND PUT THEIR BIBLE DOWN, AND TALK ABOUT THEMSELVES SAYING, "OH HOW HOLY I AM."

NOW CHRIST HIMSELF INSTRUCTED US TO LEARN, AND READ FROM HIS WORD, NOT FROM THE WORDS OF MAN. YOU KNOW YOUR SO CALLED CHRISTIANS, LEST YOU BE DECEIVED, WHICH MEANS LIED TO.

NOW WHAT WAS JESUS TALKING ABOUT? IT WAS ABOUT "THE END DAYS." JESUS TAUGHT US THROUGH A PARABLE MATTHEW 13:37 CHRIST TOLD US THAT THE WORLD IS A FIELD.GOD LENT IT TO THE BRIDE, THAT IS TO SAY, HE LENT IT OUT TO HIS CHILDREN OR CHRISTIANS, MEANING US, SO THAT WE MIGHT TEND TO IT.

NOW SOME MIGHT BE SHOCKED AT THIS LETTER, ESPECIALLY IF THEY KNEW THAT IT REFERS TO THE (RAPTURE THEORY). NOW YOU MIGHT ASK, "THE LORD DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT THE RAPTURE?" WELL HE CERTAINLY WROTE ABOUT IT.

THE WORD RAPTURE SIMPLY DOES NOT APPEAR IN GODS WORD. THEN YOU MIGHT ASK ME, WELL HAVE YOU NEVER READ, 1 THESSALONIANS CHAPTER 4 VERSE 13:17 ? YES I HAVE READ IT, MORE THEN ONCE.

NOW THE WORD CLOUDS, IN VERSE 17 SIMPLY MEANS GATHERING, WITNESS CHRISTIANS, MEANING, LIKE THERE IS A BIG CLOUD OF PEOPLE, DOCUMENTATION, HEBREWS, 12 VERSE 1, AND THIS WORD AIR, DOSE NOT MEAN ATMOSPHERE OR SOME WERE FLOATING IN SPACE, IT SIMPLY MEANS "THE BREATH OF GOD."

IT SIMPLY MEANS, WHEN THE TRUE CHRIST COMES, IN A FLASH, IN THE TWINKLING OF AN EYE, AT THE LAST TRUMPET, 1 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 15 VERSE 52, I MEAN ALL, THEN WE WILL ALL BE CHANGED FROM OUR FLESHLY BODIES, IN TO OUR SPIRITLY BODIES. NOT SOMEWHERE IN THE AIR, OR SOME WHERE FLOATING IN SPACE. DOCUMENT 1 CORINTHIANS CHAPTER 5 VERSE 55.

NOW LET'S SEE WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS. IN THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL CHAPTER 13. THE LORD WARNS US AGAIN, NOT TO BE DECEIVED.

THE WORD OF THE LORD CAME TO ME, SON OF MAN PROPHECY AGAINST THE PROPHETS OF ISRAEL WHO ARE NOW PROPHECY OUT OF THEIR OWN IMAGINATION.

NOW WHAT IS THE LORD TALKING ABOUT? THE SON OF MAN IN VERSE 2 IS EZEKIEL. THE LORD TELLS EZEKIEL TO PROPHECY AGAINST THOSE PREACHERS, AND TEACHERS, THAT WILL LIE TO HIS PEOPLE MEANING NO NEED TO WORRY, WE ARE ALL GOING TO (FLY AWAY). WHEN THE TRIBULATIONS COMES.

BUT IF YOU READ CHAPTER BY CHAPTER, VERSE BY VERSE, AND LINE BY LINE, THE LORD TELLS US DIFFERENT. IF YOU READ, 2 THESSALONIANS CHAPTER 2 VERSE 1:12, YOU FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF, NOW I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE A CHANCE, SO I'M GOING TO WRITE IT IN FOR YOU:

"NOW WE BESEECH YOU, BRETHREN, BY THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, AND BY OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM, THAT YE BE NOT SOON SHAKEN IN MIND, OR BE TROUBLED, NEITHER BY SPIRIT, NOR BY WORD, NOR BY LETTER AS FROM US, AS THAT THE DAYS OF CHRIST IS AT HAND.

LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS: FOR THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME, EXCEPT THERE COME A FALLING AWAY FIRST, AND THAT MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, THE SON OF PERDITION;

WHO OPPESETH AND EXALTETH HIMSELF ABOVE ALL THAT IS CALLED GOD, OR THAT IS WORSHIPPED; SO THAT HE AS GOD SITTETH IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD, SHEWING HIMSELF THAT HE IS GOD.

REMEMBER YE NOT, THAT, WHEN I WAS YET WITH YOU, I TOLD YOU THESE THINGS?

AND NOW YE KNOW WHAT WITHHOLDETH THAT HE MIGHT BE REVEALED IN HIS TIME. 7FOR THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY DOTH ALREADY WORK: ONLY HE WHO NOW LETTETH WILL LET, UNTIL HE BE TAKEN OUT OF THE WAY. AND THEN SHALL THAT WICKED BE REVEALED, WHOM THE LORD SHALL CONSUME WITH THE SPIRIT OF HIS MOUTH, AND SHALL DESTROY WITH THE BRIGHTNESS OF HIS COMING:

EVEN HIM, WHOSE COMING IS AFTER THE WORKING OF SATAN WITH ALL POWER AND SIGNS AND LYING WONDERS, AND WITH ALL DECEIVABLENESS OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS IN THEM THAT PERISH; BECAUSE THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH, THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED.

AND FOR THIS CAUSE GOD SHALL SEND THEM STRONG DELUSION, THAT THEY SHOULD BELIEVE A LIE. THAT THEY ALL MIGHT BE DAMNED WHO BELIEVED NOT THE TRUTH, BUT HAD PLEASURE IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

NOW LISTEN PEOPLE, NEVER LISTEN TO ANY MAN, EVEN THIS MAN, NEVER PUT YOU SOUL IN OTHER MANS HANDS. BUT READ AND UNDERSTAND FOR YOURSELF, FOR THE SOULS DOES BELONG TO GOD. DOCUMENT IN ECCLESIASTES CHAPTER 12 VERSE 7.



NOW BACK TO EZEKIEL CHAPTER 13 VERSE 10. BECAUSE THEY LEAD MY PEOPLE ASTRAY SAYING PEACE WHEN THERE IS NO PEACE, AND BECAUSE, WHEN A FLIMSY WALL IS BUILT, AND THEY COVER IT WITH WHITE WASH, GO TELL THOSE WHO COVER IT WITH WHITE-WASH THAT IT IS GOING TO FALL.

GODS' WORD IS TELLING US THEY BUILT A WALL INTENDING TO MAKE US FEEL SAFE. THAT IS YOUR SO CALLED WHITE-WASHED CHURCHES OF TODAY. NOW GOD IS SUPPOSED TO BE YOUR WALL, YOUR INVISIBLE WALL OF PROTECTION.

NOW MANY PREACHERS AND TEACHERS, WOULD HAVE YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT PROTECTION. THEY TEACH YOU THAT YOU ARE SAVED, AND THAT YOU ARE GOING TO BE GONE WHEN THE ANTI-CHRIST COMES, REMEMBER ANTI-CHRIST MEANS INSTEAD OF CHRIST, HE IS THE FIRST ON THE SCENE.

NOW REMEMBER THE WORD PEACE IN EZEKIEL 13:10? IN SEPTEMBER 30, 1993 BOTH NATION GOT TOGETHER AND SIGNED ON THE DOTTED LINE. NOW IT'S NOT A PROPHECY ANYMORE, BUT A REAL FACT. ARE YOUR EYES OPEN NOW. GODS' WORD IS REAL, HE IS THE LIVING WORD.

IN EZEKIEL CHAPTER 13 VERSE 11, IT READS THEREFORE TELL ALL THOSE WHO COVER IT WITH WHITE-WASH, THAT IT IS GOING TO FALL. RAIN WILL TORMENT. AND I WILL SEND HAIL STONES HURTLING DOWN, AND VIOLENT WINDS WILL BURST FORTH.

NOW WHAT GOD IS SAYING HERE, WHEN ANTI-CHRIST IS IN JERUSALEM AND IN THE TEMPLE SAYING, "COME TO ME I WILL GIVE YOU LIFE AND PEACE, AN I WILL GIVE YOU LOVE AND REST, AND I WILL FLY YOU AWAY," DON'T LISTEN TO HIM. HIS IS THE ANTI-CHRIST.

AT THAT TIME, THE RAIN OF GOD WILL BRING THAT WALL DOWN. WHICH IS THE WHITE-WASH CHURCHES. WHERE ALL YOUR SO CALLED PASTORS, AND TEACHERS ARE IN. YOU MAY READ ABOUT IT IN REVELATION CHAPTER 12 VERSE 1:17. WHERE THE FLOOD OF LIES WILL POUR FROM SATANS' MOUTH TO DECEIVE THOSE ON EARTH.

NOW YOU MIGHT SAY, "WHAT DO YOU MEAN, LIES FROM SATANS' MOUTH? IT MEANS THOSE SUPER PREACHERS THAT GIVE YOU ONE VERSE, AND BLOW HOT WIND FOR TWO HOURS, NOW WAIT A MINUTE, MY PASTOR IS GREAT HE GIVES ME THE WORD, AND WE SING AND WE GIVE PRAISES, AND WE RAISE OUR HANDS TO THE LORD, AND WHEN I LEAVE THE CHURCH, I FEEL GREAT."

NOW THAT'S JUST WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT, YOU SING, YOU PRAISE, YOU RAISE YOUR HANDS TO THE LORD, AND YOU FEEL GREAT, BUT NOW BROTHER, WHAT HAVE YOU LEARNED? CAN YOU GIVE ME FIVE SCRIPTURES ON SALVATION?

NOW LET'S GET INTO THE MEAT. EZEKIEL CHAPTER 13 VERSE 16:18. TO THE PROPHETS OF ISRAEL, WHICH PROPHECY CONCERNING JERUSALEM. AND WHICH SEE VISIONS OF PEACE FOR HER, AND THERE IS NO PEACE, SAID THE LORD GOD,

LIKE WISE SON OF MAN, SET YOUR FACE AGAINST THE DAUGHTER OF YOUR PEOPLE, WHICH PROPHECY OUT THEIR HEART, AND PROPHECY YOU, AGAINST THEM, AND SAY,YOUR LORD GOD HAS SAID THIS.

TO THE WOMEN THAT SEW PILLOWS TO ALL ARMHOLES AND KERCHIEFS UPON THE HEADS OF EVERY PERSON, TO HUNT THE SOUL, WILL YOU HUNT THE SHOULD OF MY PEOPLE? AND WILL YOU TRY TO SAVE YOUR OWN SOUL?

NOW WHAT IS GOD TALKING ABOUT. WELL WE ARE ALL THE SOULS OF GOD. WHEN YOU HEAR THE WORD "JERUSALEM" AND "WOMEN" AND "DAUGHTER" IT MEANS CHURCHES SPIRITUALLY SPEAKING. THE WORD PILLOWS MIGHT BE BETTER TRANSLATED COVERS, OR PILLOW SLIPS. IN OTHER WORDS THE LORD IS SAYING WOE TO THOSE THAT SEW COVERS OVER ALL THE ARMHOLES TO BLOCK, THE OUT REACH ARMS OF CHRIST, IN OTHER WORDS THE WORD OF GOD.

THESE FALSE TEACHERS THEY ARE ONES THAT DON'T HAVE THE WORD OF GOD, THESE ARE YOUR ONE VERSE CHARLYS. THEY ARE BIBLICALLY ILLITERATE.

IN THE BOOK OF EZEKIEL VERSE 16:17. WOE TO THOSE THAT LIE TO HIS PEOPLE ABOUT SALVATION? WELL IT GOES SOMETHING LIKE THIS, YOU DON'T HAVE TO UNDERSTAND WHAT GOD SAY, IT ISN'T IMPORTANT. YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSE TO UNDERSTAND THE BOOK OF REVELATION, OR MOST OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, OR EVEN THE OLD TESTAMENT. JUST TRUST GOD, BECAUSE YOU ARE GOING TO BE GONE WHEN THE ANTI-CHRIST COMES ANYWAY.

HAS ANYONE EVER TOLD YOU THIS. NOW AM I SAYING DON'T TRUST GOD, NOW WAY! I AM JUST SAYING WATCH OUT THAT NO ONE DECEIVES YOU. FOR MANY WILL COME IN HIS NAME CLAIMING HE IS A PASTOR, OR A TEACHER.

NOW IN GODS WORDS DOES IT SAY THAT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO BE HERE? NO! THAT'S A LIE TAUGHT BY THE MEN. YOU ARE TO UNDERSTAND THE WORD OF GOD. IN FACT, THE VERY BEGINNING OF KNOWLEDGE IS READING AND UNDERSTANDING HIS WORD. WITHOUT THIS KNOWLEDGE YOU ARE BIBLICALLY ILLITERATE, AND DON'T KNOW WHAT TO BELIEVE.

NOW IN EZEKIEL CHAPTER 13, VERSE 19, IT SAYS, AND WILL YOU POLLUTE ME AMONG MY PEOPLE FOR A HAND FULL OF BARLEY AND FOR PIECES OF BREAD, TO SLAY THE SOUL THAT SHOULD NOT DIE, AND TO SAVE THE SOULS ALIVE. THAT SHOULD NOT LIVE, BY YOUR LIEING TO MY PEOPLE, THAT LISTENING TO YOUR LIES.

NOW WHAT GOD IS SAYING HERE, THAT YOU ARE GIVING MY WORDS WHICH IS BREAD, AND CHARGING MONEY FOR ONE VRESE HERE ,AND ONE VRESE THERE.. HE IS ALSO SAYING IN THE SAME VERSE, THAT THE PREACHERS AND TEACHERS ARE SLAYING SOULS THAT SHOULD LIVE. BUT WHAT WILL THEY BE LIEING ABOUT?

IN EZEKIEL CHAPTER 13 VERSE 20. GOD SAID THIS, BE HOLD I AM AGAINST YOUR PILLOWS WHICH MEANS COVERING WILL YOU HUNT THE SOULS TO MAKE THEM FLY, AND I WILL TEAR THEM FROM YOUR ARMS, AND I WILL LET THE SOUL GO. EVEN THE SOULS THAT YOU HUNT TO MAKE THEM FLY. KEY POINT*- YOU WILL FIND THIS IN YOUR KING JAMES BOOK.

THE LORD GOD IS AGAINST THOSE THAT HUNT THE SOULS TO MAKE THEM FLY. NOW THOSE GOOD OLD BOYS, ARE SAYING IT'S NOT IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND GODS WORD, AND IT IS NOT IMPORTANT TO STAY WORKING IN THE FIELD. WE ARE ALL GOING TO FLY OUT OF HERE, FLYING OUT OF HERE IT'S NOT IN GODS WORD.

THEY ARE LIEING AND GOD IS AGAINST THEM. FOR IT'S NOT ME THAT'S TELLING YOU THIS, BUT IT IS GODS WORD. READ IT FOR YOURSELF. I DARE YOU!

NOW I AM SAYING THIS TO TEAR DOWN THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES? NO! NO! NO! I AM SAYING THIS TO TELL THOSE PREACHERS, AND TEACHERS THAT ARE LIEING THAT THEY BETTER FIX UP THEIR CHRISTIAN BOAT AND MAKE IT FLOAT, BECAUSE IT IS SURELY GOING TO SINK. WHEN THE FLOOD OF TRUTH COMES WHICH IS THE WORD OF GOD WHICH IS THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST.

THEY HAVE BETTER DO THEIR HOMEWORK AND QUIT TEACHING GODS CHILDREN, THAT THEY ARE GOING TO FLY TO SAVE THEIR SOULS. WHEN HE INTENDS FOR THEM TO STAY WORKING IN THE FIELD.

NOW BACK TO EZEKIEL CHAPTER 13 VERSE 21. GOD IS SAYING YOUR KERCHIEFS ALSO I WILL TEAR OFF, AND DELIVER MY PEOPLE OUT OF YOUR HANDS, AND THEY SHALL BE NO MORE IN YOUR HANDS, TO BE HUNTED, AND YOU SHALL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD.

NOW WHAT IS GOD SAYING? THAT HE IS GOING TO TAKE OFF THE KERCHIEFS WHICH MEANS BLINDNESS OFF HIS PEOPLES EYES, THROUGH WISDOM, AND KNOWLEDGE SO THAT THEY MAY KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH IS IN CHRIST BY READING HIS WORD. CHAPTER BY CHAPTER, VERSE BY VERSE, LINE BY LINE, AND NOT LISTENING TO TRANDISH OF MAN.

EZEKIEL CHAPTER 13 VERSE 22. BECAUSE WITH THESE LIES YOU HAVE MADE THE HEART, (WHICH MEANS YOUR BRAIN), AND THE RIGHTEOUS SAD, WHOM I HAVE NOT MADE SAD, AND STRENGTHENED THE HANDS OF HIS WICKED WAY. BY PROMISING HIM LIFE.

WHAT IS GOD SAYING HERE. THE PREACHERS ARE KEEPING HIS PEOPLE FROM TURNING AGAINST THEIR WICKED WAYS TO STUDY HIS WORD WITH LIES ABOUT RAPTURE. READ EZEKIEL 44 AND YOU WILL LEARN WHAT HAPPENED TO THESE PREACHERS AND TEACHERS AND ALL THOSE GOOD OLD BOYS, I AM SURE OF THIS.

GOD IS AGAINST THOSE THAT TEACH HIS PEOPLE TO FLY, AND TO FOLLOW ANTI-CHRIST.

EZEKIEL CHAPTER 13 VERSE 23. THERE FOR YOU SHALL SEE NO MORE VANITY OR DIVINE DIVINATION, FOR I WILL DELIVER MY PEOPLE OUT OF YOUR HANDS AND YOU SHALL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD.

WHAT IS GOD SAYING HERE, THIS IS THE POINT, HE WANTS HIS PEOPLE TO KNOW HE IS THE LORD. WHAT IS THE DANGER OF TEACHING PEOPLE TO FLY? THE DANGER IS HIS PEOPLE ARE NOT BEING TAUGHT THAT THERE IS A FALSE CHRIST COMING BEFORE THE REAL CHRIST.

THE ANTI-CHRIST WILL PERFORM MIRACLES AND SUPER NATURAL ACT THAT WOULD DECEIVE, IF POSSIBLE EVEN THE ELECT IF COULD. DO YOU THINK FOR A MINUTE THAT ANTI-CHRIST WON'T CAPITALIZE ON THE FACT THAT MILLIONS HAVE BEEN TAUGHT AND ARE READY TO FLY OUT OF HERE?

IT'S UP TO YOU FRIENDS STAY IN THE FIELD, ARM YOURSELF WITH HIS TRUTH OR BE DECEIVED.

GOD WARNED THE PREACHERS AND TEACHER

DON'T TEACH MY PEOPLE TO FLY...

Note: In these last days there is this new anti-rapture teaching and anytime you have to make your point with Hebrew or Greek should raise red flags because one of many prophecies is that the gospel would be preached,published and taught in all nations,languages and tongues and yet you are trying to say the translation God gave English speaking people is not right,when it is right.It is because of the English language that the gospel has been preached in the world as it can be so far. Jesus did warn of deception in the last days and yet it is this new anti a rapture teaching.You cannot deny a rapture happens and be biblical even if the word rapture is not in the bible,neither is trinity,but the words "caught up" are in the bible and in English "raptured"means the same thing.

[thesign]

The Gospel of Jesus Christ assures us that He will come upon the clouds with great power and glory. To put it another way, the reality of that occurrence will supercede belief.

The Gospel also contains the story of one coming back from the dead to warn others of the torments of hell. That story ends with the conclusion that if one does not listen to prophecy, then neither will a visitation from one who has died serve any purpose.

The Creed contains the tenet : "I believe in the resurrection of the dead (the body), and the life of the world to come". The "Glory Be" contains the prayer words : "world without end". If one rejects these guidelines, anything akin to a rapture is as useless as the story just mentioned.

The Second Coming, as also mentioned in this thread, includes the revealing of the Antichrist prior to that Coming. That's a capital "A". A specific personage in prophecy and time to mark (even 'confirm' "the mass apostasy") that the day of the Lord "is near at hand". A king who is strengthened, but not by his own force (Daniel 8:24).

Believing is anathema to apostasy. But by definition of term, rapture is seen by most to be that "meeting in the air", inasmuch as the etymology usually includes "snatching" and "harpazo".

Maybe that's what Harpo Marx had in mind. The lyre, harp, and modern pianoforte have a lot in common, and the music theory behind the tonality is certainly something high in the air already.

But as for all the mention of people disappearing, what happened to "the meek shall inherit the earth" in such thinking?

And what if someone was given strong enough private revelation of this thing called rapture that he began to speak of it? The same rule of thumb would apply, if one rejects the prophets, then the rapture is virtually incomprehensible. And such rejection is the thinking of the spirit of antichrist, who severs the "Jesus" from the "Christ". That spirit, again, we are told in prophecy, Christ Jesus shall slay with the breath of His mouth in the glory of His Coming. We are also told that those who delight in doing evil are sent that perverse spirit of antichrist, and thus is that king strengthened, not by his own force.

The whole resolution of the matter hinges on the Coming of the Son of Man in glory, bringing also the destruction of the world in which Christ died, and its works, for "the new heavens and earth, where righteousness dwells".

When one considers the c. 3,000 year old prophecy of Ezekiel, that "I will cause a great fire to come down", and the ignition of the elements (2 Peter 3:10), science can confirm that if enough fallout is present in the atmosphere, the elements themselves can become superheated to the kindling point.

Other prophecy speaks of the "Three Days of Darkness", describing this event. Giving that we all need a certain environment in which to breathe, one can then be thankful for Christ's words, "for the sake of my Elect, I will shorten the days". Christ also says that if those days were not shortened, there would be no survivors.

Recently I recalled an event where, when travelling by automobile, there was going to be a collision from another vehicle striking the one in which I was, but the two vehicles, literally, passed through each other. After I posted that story, I noticed that someone else had only minutes earlier posted a topic on that very principle, the transmutation of elements. That event now serves as an explanatory phenomenon on how the new heavens and earth can come through such "shortening".

I bear witness that the Resurrection has already come upon us. I didn't even know it was happening, just as Christ said it would be, not knowing the day nor the hour. From reading of the rapture, it can only mean that this is what it is.

There is an encyclical, Dei Verbum, that expounds upon private and public revelation. I find it of easy concluse that as time goes on, private revelation will increase, though it is not necessary to believe it, the preponderance will 'speak' for itself, here again, the Son of Man coming upon the clouds with great power and glory.

I'm a lot of things in name : St. Elijah, St. John the Baptist, the 'Antichrist'. (cf. Catholic Catechism, §783-786), all part of God's plan.

[Mallz]

Are you saying that two vehicles passing through each other, and other similar proposed miracles are signs that the resurrection has happened?
And which resurrection are you talking about? Jesus has already been resurrected.

[thesign]

Are you saying that two vehicles passing through each other,

Yes. From all normal observance, that is exactly what happened, the two vehicles passed through each other.

This is a verbatim of that post "Miraculous Encounter and More" at beliefnet in the Science and Religion sub-forum (separated with asterisks) :

***

One day c. 1970, I was in a car in the city in the back passenger side, my dad was driving, and my brother in front of me. We began to go through an intersection, and seemingly out of nowhere came another vehicle which would have hit us portside, the driver obviously running an amber/red traffic light. Other vehicles with a more direct view were even heard to blow their horns. Because the oncoming vehicle was coming at us broadside, and it all happened so quickly, there was barely time to react. At one point of time, however, it was evident that impact was unavoidable.

But the vehicles never collided in the physical sense. Both the oncoming vehicle and the car in which I was a passenger literally passed through each other. My brother and I both tensed before what would have been normal impact, and just after the encounter, he asked our dad, "Did you see that?". I only remember him nodding in the affirmative.

About a year ago I began to look more closely at a prophecy concerning the elements in this world igniting while the new heavens and earth come in the glory of God's Kingdom.

Somehow I think that miracle (sign) some 45 years ago was a prefigurement of the awesomeness to come, especially since that prophecy speaks of two heavens and earth, yet we pray, "world without end".

***

I added something to that thread this morning that I've been meaning to do this past month. It involves China and the USA with regard to end times. I experienced a 'vanishing' appearance of another brother in the back seat at that c. 1970 time, who later died on March 19, 2009 A.D. from complications due to an automobile accident on February 9, 2009 A.D. On February 12, 2009 A.D., however, he became incoherent, marking the beginning of this quatrain by Nostradamus :

"The realm left to two they will hold it very briefly,
Three years and seven months passed by they will make war:
The two Vestals will rebel in opposition,
Victor the younger in the land of Brittany."

and other similar proposed miracles are signs that the resurrection has happened?

This I know : God has made His angel to prepare His ways. How? As "all things shall be possible with God", He could have done things in a myriad of ways. But at what I can say was a predetermined time, He took me, as Elijah (1 Kings 17), to heaven in a whirlwind, and gave me rebirth as "John", the equivalent of being born again of water and spirit as He says it is necessary in order to enter the Kingdom of God. In His doing this, He created His angel to prepare His ways. As He has raised me from the dead via His Redemption at Calvary, the Resurrection is as plain as day to me, even while I traipse through this kingship (Daniel 11:4 & 11) to which I have been raised ("he shall increase glory" [Daniel]).

When one considers that a day is as a thousand years in Heaven, the Almighty capable of all things, the fact that we are predestined in Christ - there exists the reality that the Resurrection has been here all along in some way, shape. and/or form. But the Resurrection is also an individual experience for each of us : "multitudes which sleep in the dust of the earth shall rise" (Daniel). For the living, the survivors, we are assured in 1 Thess. 4:13-18 (KJV) that no one will be left behind.

And which resurrection are you talking about? Jesus has already been resurrected.

The manifestation of His Second Coming.

[abelcainsbrother]

Noah's flood is a kind of picture of the rapture where nobody knew exactly when the flood would come,nobody knows the day or hour when the rapture will come.Noah warned the people get ready,repent God is going to pour out judgment!They would not listen but Noah prepared and was ready and rose up and was safe on the ark when the flood came and Jesus said it would be as the days of Noah were when he comes.

The thing about the rapture that seems to get left out is only those Christians ready will be raptured,not every christian,there will be Christians left behind that will realize they were left and they will probably be beheaded by the anti-christ.a lot of times they make it seem that all believers will be raptured but this is not true,one way or another your faith will matter,now or later.

[RickD]

ACB wrote:
The thing about the rapture that seems to get left out is only those Christians ready will be raptured,not every christian,there will be Christians left behind that will realize they were left and they will probably be beheaded by the anti-christ.a lot of times they make it seem that all believers will be raptured but this is not true,one way or another your faith will matter,now or later.

Do you have scripture that backs this up?

[abelcainsbrother]

ACB wrote:
The thing about the rapture that seems to get left out is only those Christians ready will be raptured,not every christian,there will be Christians left behind that will realize they were left and they will probably be beheaded by the anti-christ.a lot of times they make it seem that all believers will be raptured but this is not true,one way or another your faith will matter,now or later.

Do you have scripture that backs this up?

Yes Matthew 24:45-51.
also Matthew 25:1-13
Revelation 20:4.

[Rob]

Can you please explain the biblical support for a secret rapture that takes place some time before the Day of the Lord?

Matthew 24:29-30

[abelcainsbrother]

Can you please explain the biblical support for a secret rapture that takes place some time before the Day of the Lord?

Matthew 24:29-30

First off if you accept the rapture like I do then it happens before the 2nd coming of Jesus and so is next,now if you reject a rapture then you'll probably claim the verses I gave are talking about the 2nd coming.It is important to know that in the rapture Jesus only comes to the clouds and those who have not died yet are caught up with him in the air,it is important to know that "caught up" and raptured mean the same thing in English and it is easier to say rapture instead of "caught up".Now in the 2nd coming Christ comes back at the end of the tribulation and destroys the armies attacking Israel and comes all the way down to the earth,then sets up his thousand year reign on this earth,so there are differences between the rapture and the 2nd coming.

Matthew 24:29-30 is referring to the 2nd coming not the rapture the verses I gave do refer to the rapture.1st Thessalonians 4:16-18 tell us about the rapture and you'll see the words "caught up" which means the same thing as the word raptured.I can say I will be caught up and meet Jesus or I can say I will be raptured and meet Jesus.
Also notice in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 the phrase " and our gathering together with him"this refers to the rapture because those raptured are gathered together with Jesus in the clouds and so if you read verse 1,2 and 3 it reveals the Antichrist will be revealed before the rapture happens which is why I think the rapture happens about a year into the tribulation,it takes time for the Antichrist to deceive the world and the first part of the trib is not as bad as the 2nd part.

[Danieltwotwenty]

If and when there is a rapture (I am dubious of the claims, especially when it is not an orthodox teaching of the church, I think John Darby first put it into a doctrine in 1830) I hope and pray that I am left behind, I don't want to be whisked away to safety, I would rather be left behind and continue Christ's work here on Earth, his work will not be done until I have breathed my last and I am ready to suffer for him.

Personally I think the pre-trib rapture is a doctrine based on fear, which the Church of those times used to control their parishioners, but that's just my opinion. My interpretation of Revelation and various passages are much different. I mean seriously to base a doctrine on 3 or 4 passages is a pretty weak doctrine (if we can even call it that), it doesn't compare to things like the Trinity, God's love, God's mercy, The second coming, Heaven, Hell etc... etc.. and for that reason I don't put a lot of credence behind it.

I do wonder what pre-trib believers are going to feel if they do get left behind or how they will feel if there is no rapture at all, I am prepared for all possible events, so whatever happens I think my faith will stay strong.

[Kurieuo]

I think we're already in end times. We've all been left behind.

[abelcainsbrother]

If and when there is a rapture (I am dubious of the claims, especially when it is not an orthodox teaching of the church, I think John Darby first put it into a doctrine in 1830) I hope and pray that I am left behind, I don't want to be whisked away to safety, I would rather be left behind and continue Christ's work here on Earth, his work will not be done until I have breathed my last and I am ready to suffer for him.

Personally I think the pre-trib rapture is a doctrine based on fear, which the Church of those times used to control their parishioners, but that's just my opinion. My interpretation of Revelation and various passages are much different. I mean seriously to base a doctrine on 3 or 4 passages is a pretty weak doctrine (if we can even call it that), it doesn't compare to things like the Trinity, God's love, God's mercy, The second coming, Heaven, Hell etc... etc.. and for that reason I don't put a lot of credence behind it.

I do wonder what pre-trib believers are going to feel if they do get left behind or how they will feel if there is no rapture at all, I am prepared for all possible events, so whatever happens I think my faith will stay strong.

Don't fear the people. For us

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q5PpN44H98

[Danieltwotwenty]

If and when there is a rapture (I am dubious of the claims, especially when it is not an orthodox teaching of the church, I think John Darby first put it into a doctrine in 1830) I hope and pray that I am left behind, I don't want to be whisked away to safety, I would rather be left behind and continue Christ's work here on Earth, his work will not be done until I have breathed my last and I am ready to suffer for him.

Personally I think the pre-trib rapture is a doctrine based on fear, which the Church of those times used to control their parishioners, but that's just my opinion. My interpretation of Revelation and various passages are much different. I mean seriously to base a doctrine on 3 or 4 passages is a pretty weak doctrine (if we can even call it that), it doesn't compare to things like the Trinity, God's love, God's mercy, The second coming, Heaven, Hell etc... etc.. and for that reason I don't put a lot of credence behind it.

I do wonder what pre-trib believers are going to feel if they do get left behind or how they will feel if there is no rapture at all, I am prepared for all possible events, so whatever happens I think my faith will stay strong. [/

Don't fear the people. For us

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q5PpN44H98

I love it, very inspiring, I think I might learn this now haha.

[Rob]

First off if you accept the rapture like I do then it happens before the 2nd coming of Jesus and so is next,now if you reject a rapture then you'll probably claim the verses I gave are talking about the 2nd coming.It is important to know that in the rapture Jesus only comes to the clouds and those who have not died yet are caught up with him in the air,it is important to know that "caught up" and raptured mean the same thing in English and it is easier to say rapture instead of "caught up".Now in the 2nd coming Christ comes back at the end of the tribulation and destroys the armies attacking Israel and comes all the way down to the earth,then sets up his thousand year reign on this earth,so there are differences between the rapture and the 2nd coming.

Matthew 24:29-30 is referring to the 2nd coming not the rapture the verses I gave do refer to the rapture.1st Thessalonians 4:16-18 tell us about the rapture and you'll see the words "caught up" which means the same thing as the word raptured.I can say I will be caught up and meet Jesus or I can say I will be raptured and meet Jesus.
Also notice in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 the phrase " and our gathering together with him"this refers to the rapture because those raptured are gathered together with Jesus in the clouds and so if you read verse 1,2 and 3 it reveals the Antichrist will be revealed before the rapture happens which is why I think the rapture happens about a year into the tribulation,it takes time for the Antichrist to deceive the world and the first part of the trib is not as bad as the 2nd part.

Oh I do think there will be a rapture. Scripture is clear that we will be caught up with the Lord, but I just don't think you can safely say there'll be two, the first of which being a secret one. The passages you referenced don't really cut it, IMO. I was raised on the pre-trib rapture belief and just sort of took it for granted. After I seriously looked into it, I came away with a different interpretation than one I'd been raised on.
I presented this view to some people I know and they rejected it saying they were pre-trib because they were "all for getting out of here before anything bad happens."
That struck me as funny that it was based on what they wanted to be true rather than what scripture says. I imagine that some who take the pre-trib rapture for granted will probably lose faith and become bitter if it doesn't happen.

A pretty good video that sums up my view of things when it comes to the rapture:
http://youtu.be/JV2txxxdVEQ