salvation and works

[PaulSacramento]

One of the most important lessons in the NT is that of Peter and even after all that Peter did, which included DENYING Christ 3 times, what happened?
God forgave and loved Him as much as any other.
People, it isn't about what we do or don't do, it always has been and always will be about what God does for Us, all we have to do is believe.
Peter believed but FEAR drove him to deny and Christ KNEW that, He knows we are weak and fearful.
He KNOWS.

[Storyteller]

I must be feeling emotional because that post is my eureka moment.

Paul... I have been looking for a way of really feeling what I know, what I believe and what I feel.

I truly believe in Christ yet I still have doubts and fear. Now I know that's okay, thank you.

This is a wonderful journey

[PaulSacramento]

I must be feeling emotional because that post is my eureka moment.

Paul... I have been looking for a way of really feeling what I know, what I believe and what I feel.

I truly believe in Christ yet I still have doubts and fear. Now I know that's okay, thank you.

This is a wonderful journey

I hear you.
John 21 has one of the most touching passages in the NT.
Jesus, asking John if he loved Him 3 times and John saying yes every time and Jesus giving asking him to watch over His sheep.
Peter who denied Him 3X, Peter that wasn't even there when He died, wasn't there when He was buried.

15 So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus *said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?” He *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He *said to him, “Tend My lambs.” 16 He *said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He *said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.” 17 He *said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him, “Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You.” Jesus *said to him, “Tend My sheep.

Three proclamations of love to "cancel" out three denials.

Jesus didn't do that for Himself, He did that for Peter, so Peter would know that his denials were forgiven.

Truly a beautiful passage.

[jpbg33]

It is not works salvation to say that if you are saved then you will be doing your works it is consequential salvation. Which is different. One you do to be the other one you do because you are. I believe you do because you are. If you really love someone then you will try and please them all you can and if you find you have fell in some way you will apologize and start trying to please the one you love again. If you just do what you wont to do even though it hurts the person you say you love. Then you really do not love that person. The same is true with our Christian walk. If we are really Christians then we will live like one or we are not one.

[Storyteller]

No, we will try and live like one.

How we live, if we truly accept Christ as our Saviour, is irelevant to God because Christ died for ALL of our sins so that must include the ones we commit even when we are saved.

[RickD]

It is not works salvation to say that if you are saved then you will be doing your works it is consequential salvation. Which is different. One you do to be the other one you do because you are. I believe you do because you are. If you really love someone then you will try and please them all you can and if you find you have fell in some way you will apologize and start trying to please the one you love again. If you just do what you wont to do even though it hurts the person you say you love. Then you really do not love that person. The same is true with our Christian walk. If we are really Christians then we will live like one or we are not one.

And there's the qualifier again!

[jpbg33]

The problem is people are getting qualifier mixed up with consequence. It is like this the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. We do not sin to die but we die because we sin. The same is true in our Christian walk we do not live right to be Christians but we live right because we are Christians.

[RickD]

The problem is people are getting qualifier mixed up with consequence. It is like this the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. We do not sin to die but we die because we sin. The same is true in our Christian walk we do not live right to be Christians but we live right because we are Christians.

No. Living right(whatever that means). IS NOT a necessary consequence of being a believer.

That's what you're not understanding.

[jpbg33]

Actually the bible says "1Jn_5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.". that is what living right is. Acording to the bible if you are saved you will be trying to live right. it is something that you do "he that is begotten of God keepeth himself".

[melanie]

And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

We can see in the bible many accounts of differing people with their own calling, path and faith based action for God.

God does not line us all up collectively and judge accordingly. It is individual.

I am reminded of a situation with my kids and niece.
I have a large outdoor spa, I have water safety rules in place for the benefit more so of my 4 year old twins. I caught the kids being really reckless infront of the little ones. I was angry and dissapointed. Not the 4 year olds, they had heard the rules but are too young to hold much accountability, my niece who is older, 12, had not heard the rules but should have known better, my daughter is 11, knew the rules and knew better, my son who is 13 was the main intstigator, knew the rules and was the oldest.
My son felt that I was scolding him more than the others and he was right. Not only was he the one I was most dissapointed in and expected the most from, he was the one who led the others astray.
He felt it wasn't fair, but that is just how it works, the one who can dissapoint the most is the one we expect the most of.

I bring this up because I cannot view some other christian's walk based on my own path and I can not view my walk in relation to years past. Where I stand in my faith and with my relationship with God is relevant to me, in the here and now. I know from where I have come and I know the lessons I have been shown. There are times when I make mistakes and I have should have known better, where God expected more from me. I have already walked that path and learnt those lessons. I hold myself accountable with a higher level of dissapointment. I would not have done so 5 years ago because I didn't know better. When you know better you do better. Sometimes.
My point being, I cannot claim ignorance. I cannot claim to not know better because I do. It is a higher level of expectation, to whom much has been given much is expected.
In some ways, even though I have a long way to go, I see myself like my son in that spa situation. When I sin, when I am unkind, arrogant, vain ect I have done myself an injustice and most importantly God. I know better. They are my sins that fall under Gods and my own expectations of myself. That may sound like a lot of undue pressure but it's really not, I know God loves me and forgives me and I forgive myself, but to grow I must take it on board.

But We are not all the same. We are all at different places on our walk. Some of us babes, like my 4 year olds, some of us like my niece, not really understanding the rules, some like my 13 year old son who really should know better and others much further along their journey. God convicts us accordingly. He knows where we are and is patiently and forgivingly leading us forward.

[PaulSacramento]

The problem is people are getting qualifier mixed up with consequence. It is like this the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. We do not sin to die but we die because we sin. The same is true in our Christian walk we do not live right to be Christians but we live right because we are Christians.

No. Living right(whatever that means). IS NOT a necessary consequence of being a believer.

That's what you're not understanding.

Rick is correct.
Did Peter live right? No, he made mistakes, denied Christ and even after the resurrection Christ had to visit Peter to convince him to deal with Gentiles.
While a believer knows better, he is still human, still sinful, still under God's grace because he NEEDS to be.
It does NOT fall on US to decide who is living according to the the "right" expectations of being a believer.
It is God to decide.

[jpbg33]

That is where people get it wrong they say sense it is a free gift that can't be earned then we do not have to live right even though the bible says more then once that you will live right if you are saved and if you are not living right then you are not saved.It is easy to believe it is a free gift but it is hard to except that free gift for some people because the love of the world over shadows there love they could have for the Lord if they would take the free gift. You can't say I believe it is a free gift because the bible says so but I do not believe once I get the free gift I will no longer live a sinful life. Because that is in the bible to. If the bible says both of these thing are true. Then how can we believe ether of them is true if one of them is not. Ether they are both right or nether one of them are right.

And about the flogging. That was referring to the fact that for people that knows to do right and choose to do wrong that there punishment is going to be worse for them then someone that didn't know to do right. The bible says be ready for his coming and Jesus said that the only ones going are though that are do God will. So that was referring to the life to come and there will be no punishment in heaven. That punishment was talking about people that were going to hell.

[RickD]

That is where people get it wrong they say sense it is a free gift that can't be earned then we do not have to live right even though the bible says more then once that you will live right if you are saved and if you are not living right then you are not saved.It is easy to believe it is a free gift but it is hard to except that free gift for some people because the love of the world over shadows there love they could have for the Lord if they would take the free gift. You can't say I believe it is a free gift because the bible says so but I do not believe once I get the free gift I will no longer live a sinful life. Because that is in the bible to. If the bible says both of these thing are true. Then how can we believe ether of them is true if one of them is not. Ether they are both right or nether one of them are right.

And about the flogging. That was referring to the fact that for people that knows to do right and choose to do wrong that there punishment is going to be worse for them then someone that didn't know to do right. The bible says be ready for his coming and Jesus said that the only ones going are though that are do God will. So that was referring to the life to come and there will be no punishment in heaven. That punishment was talking about people that were going to hell.

I'm glad you are finally seeing what we've all been telling you. That your human reasoning has lead you to believe that the bible promotes a "works or performance based" salvation. Which in turn, leads you to promote a works/performance based salvation.

Now all you have to do is admit that what you're interpreting the bible to say is a contradiction. The bible cannot at the same time, promote a works/performance based salvation, AND salvation by grace, through faith, alone.

Maybe you will see that perhaps you are interpreting scripture wrong in certain instances.

[jpbg33]

Actually I am not interpreting it as work based salvation. I am interpreting as evidence based works because of salvation.

[RickD]

Actually I am not interpreting it as work based salvation. I am interpreting as evidence based works because of salvation.

Which is the same as works based, because of the condition you put on salvation.

Here, this is what you're saying:

1) you will live right if you are saved

2) if you are not living right then you are not saved

So, #2 says that if you are not performing up to some unknown ideal, you are not saved. Which contradicts what scripture clearly states, that salvation is by grace, through faith, alone.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.