Doctrine of Hell

[Starhunter]

This relates to the doctrine of hell,

does God make the decision on our salvation based on what's best for Him or best for us?

[jpbg33]

It is not for what is best for anyone. It is for what is just. It is for what is just because if you remember in the bible Adam and Eve ate of the tree of good and evil so we know we are not right in our hearts whether we say so or not. We may not know what to do about it but we know we are not good our selves. Others may think we are good but they do not know the secret chambers of our heart.

[Starhunter]

Who then does God care for and who did He die for?

[Storyteller]

Who then does God care for and who did He die for?

Everybody.

[Starhunter]

Who then does God care for and who did He die for?

Everybody.

So His interests are for those whom He died for and not for Himself primarily. How then is keeping a person out of heaven in their interest? How is God doing to them what is best for them?

Does the love of God change in judgement or is it the same, seeing that He changes not?

[Storyteller]

I want to give this a lot of thought begore I answer this as my answer everybody was a statement from my heart.

I don't think God keeps anybody out of Heaven, they do it themselves. By going against their free will would not be what's best for them, it would be best for God so yes, I believe His judgement is always just but I want to give this more thought.

[Storyteller]

His judgement proves His love. He will not force us to accept Him, He honours our free will, always.

Personally I believe that God will not rest untill He finds all of his lost sheep.

But it has to be achieved with free will and love.

[Starhunter]

I agree with you,

We all have reasons why the unrepentant will not be there, because they are not really living in love, but in variance to it,
but we all know that people want to go to heaven, especially if they see it as they will.
But how is it in their best interest to not allow them entry into heaven?

Let's just run with the thought that God has only their best interest at heart, which by the way is true.

[Starhunter]

It is not for what is best for anyone. It is for what is just. It is for what is just because if you remember in the bible Adam and Eve ate of the tree of good and evil so we know we are not right in our hearts whether we say so or not. We may not know what to do about it but we know we are not good our selves. Others may think we are good but they do not know the secret chambers of our heart.

With God, mercy and justice are one, so His justice has to be in the best interest for the judged does it not?

[Storyteller]

I agree with you,

We all have reasons why the unrepentant will not be there, because they are not really living in love, but in variance to it,
but we all know that people want to go to heaven, especially if they see it as they will.
But how is it in their best interest to not allow them entry into heaven?

Let's just run with the thought that God has only their best interest at heart, which by the way is true.

I disagree that everyone wants to go to Heaven. How is God allowing, or forcing, the unrepentant into Heaven in their best interests? He allows us free will to choose. That is just, and merciful is it not?

[jpbg33]

Basically it is like this God must send everyone to hell that is unjust and according to the bible we have all sinned. So we were all unjust and were all on our way to hell but sense he is merciful in his mercy he gave us a way to be justified (by Jesus Christ dying on the cross). So that all that accept Jesus as there savior can stand before him justified and no longer be sent to hell but everyone that dose not accept Jesus as there savior will go to hell because it is just.

[Philip]

With God, mercy and justice are one, so His justice has to be in the best interest for the judged does it not?

For God, righteous judgment must be just - which means an appropriate punishment for the transgressions for which the requirement of mercy was not met (faith in Christ). And we must remember that what we think is no big deal, God looks at as terrible sin, which His justice demands appropriate (per God's standards) punishments. What about the overall sin of rejection? Does one so entrenched in their rebellion against God, so much so that they never turn from them and towards God, in their lifetimes, EVER truly desire Him? Is not their heart's desire of rejecting Him eternally continuous, requiring eternal punishment - this apart from punishment for sins committed in their earthly life.

What I see is that, while people certainly don't want Hell or terrible punishment, they want the good things and bliss of Heaven, and yet they STILL don't and won't desire God - which is what Heaven is ALL about. What they want is a heaven without God, a place where they can remain in charge of themselves (as their own little god) and they can continue to make whatever decisions (whether sinful and evil) they so desire - and FOREVER. THINK about it: This world can be a terrible place full of hate, war, suffering, catastrophes, etc. - so much so that many who despise such things cry out to God to save us from and to relieve us of the resulting consequences. Those who desire God realize His beauty, love, care and promises of protection stand in immense contrast to the darkness of this world. So, are we to believe that one who doesn't desire or seek God in this often-difficult and suffering life will suddenly want to follow and love Him in the next one? Let's not confuse desiring God with the mere desire to escape punishment and the terrible consequences of Hell. Rebels want to remain rebels. There will be no rebels in Heaven.

One other thing: Those asserting Hell isn't the place of punishment most ascribe of it - how do you have justice with monsters like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc, if they are not punished severely? If justice requires one to suffer precisely what his earthly victims did - EACH victim - and for the entire duration of time that each victim suffered - well, without such, you have no true justice. Mercy is for the forgiven. Yes, there is some mercy, as we're told that some will receive fewer lashes. And whether the pain of Hell is part physical, part mental anguish (that those punished will heap upon themselves, while forced to focus upon the minutia of their own transgressions), it's something unimaginably terrible. I don't think I would want to gamble, "well, maybe Hell's not nearly as bad as the media portrays it (as if, they actually do so)."

[Starhunter]

To reply to the three latest posts,

Heaven is startling in beauty and appeal, when the wicked see it, they will gasp with amazement, even fallen angels still want to have it back, and more so fallen man who has never even dreamed of such a sight.

Everybody will want to be there, but the judgement says no to many.

They want to be there, as they see it, they are repenting and bowing down to the earth confessing that Jesus is Lord, they are taken away in awe of the scene, and it seems like now they will sacrifice anything to be there. But the answer is no.

For God to be merciful as He is just, for His justice is mercy, and visa verse, how can it be good for the wicked that they enter not? The answer is - it's not good at all. But there is something they don't know about themselves or heaven, that makes it better that they don't enter. What is that?

There has to be a good reason for them not to enter heaven according to our merciful God, what is that good reason in their ultimate favor? And why?

[Storyteller]

The honest answer is I don`t know but perhaps because if someone has not chosen God and does not choose God then they would be unhappy?

I trust God implicitly, He knows what He`s doing and I truly believe He will always offer the chance to turn to Him, maybe even after death. I think, maybe, that if someone still chooses to deny God and follow Him then it is in their best interests to be denied entry to Heaven. If you don`t believe, if you don`t want to follow Christ and God then I think Heaven wouldn`t be Heaven to you. Why would you want to be somewhere you don`t fit in? As in being somewhere that goes against everything you believe in?

I worry sometimes about the people I love who don`t believe in God but I also believe God is just and fair so if someone, on finally seeing God, has that Eureka moment then they will still be forgiven. Am I right in thinking that God wants ALL of his lost sheep to return to the fold? Personally, I`m toying with the idea that God will not rest untill every single one of us turns to Him, including the fallen.

[Katabole]

One other thing: Those asserting Hell isn't the place of punishment most ascribe of it - how do you have justice with monsters like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc, if they are not punished severely? If justice requires one to suffer precisely what his earthly victims did - EACH victim - and for the entire duration of time that each victim suffered - well, without such, you have no true justice. Mercy is for the forgiven. Yes, there is some mercy, as we're told that some will receive fewer lashes. And whether the pain of Hell is part physical, part mental anguish (that those punished will heap upon themselves, while forced to focus upon the minutia of their own transgressions), it's something unimaginably terrible. I don't think I would want to gamble, "well, maybe Hell's not nearly as bad as the media portrays it (as if, they actually do so)."

It would depend on how you view "Hell" from Christian eschatology and there are varying Biblical views and perspectives. My belief as I have mentioned before on previous Hell threads and which I have received undue criticism for, is that Hell is not a what. It is a who.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

I thought the only thing that was everlasting was God and various attributes of God? But this "fire" described here is interestingly enough, described as everlasting.

I have heard interpretations of this verse over the years that Hell was "created". But the Greek word for create is not in this verse. Preparing something is much different than creating. I believe the verse is describing God Himself "preparing" Himself for the Day of Vengeance or Day of Wrath when He will consume all evil.

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Hebrew word for consuming from Strong's concordance:

398 'akal pronounced aw-kal'

a primitive root; to eat (literally or figuratively):--X at all, burn up, consume, devour(-er, up), dine, eat(-er, up), feed (with), food, X freely, X in...wise(-deed, plenty), (lay) meat, X quite.

Greek word for consuming

2654 katanalisko pronounced kat-an-al-is'-ko

from kata - kata 2596 and- analisko 355; to consume utterly:--consume.

So what does God consume? Is it not evil? If it is not evil, then what does God consume?

Daniel 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

If you do a study on the prime root of the Greek word used for lake in Revelation regarding the "lake of fire" the word essentially means a harbour or "to surround." So I believe, when the time of God's wrath comes, a river of fire issues forth from God, surrounds all evil and consumes it.

I am in no way a Nazi or Communist sympathizer but you probably do not view the prophetic Day of the Lord the way I view it. I believe it will be a time of teaching and discipline for all those who never heard about Christ, for all those who were falsely taught by the churches and for all those who rejected Christ in this life. This is in no way a second chance because many in this life, never had a chance.

As Jesus says:

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Jesus is quoting from Isaiah.

Isaiah 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

To my knowledge up to this point in history, not everyone has been taught by God. So if they have not been taught by God and God claims he is going to teach everyone, then when does that teaching happen? Evidently during the Day of the Lord which I believe is a thousand years long. And I believe that Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot will be taught during that time as well as everyone else.

I believe Satan will be locked up during that day and will have no influence.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

So when that time of teaching and discipline, that Day of the Lord ends, Lucifer is going to be released one last time:

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Anyone who is deceived and follows Lucifer after he is released, considering they have just been taught by Christ for a thousand years will suffer the second death and be annihilated by God in his wrath, the consuming hellfire.

Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were very misled in life and by their actions millions and millions suffered. I am not excusing that in anyway. But the New Testament claims this:

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

How many of us have been angry with their brothers or sisters at one time and even hated them? If we have, God would consider us a murderer, just like Hitler or Mao. Granted, we can ask for forgiveness and have it granted. But are we to believe that God will exempt us but that he will not exempt others even though they did many of the same actions except on a greater scale without ever knowing God or by learning about God from a false church?

I certainly do believe that the very worst dregs of humanity over the millenia are going to be reprimanded for their actions because God is a God of justice. But to burn forever on some plane of existence away from the presence of God, I do not consider that possibility as either just or theologically sound, even if MOST subscribe to it.

Nahum 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked: the LORD hath his way in the whirlwind and in the storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.

Anyways, if Christians want to believe Hell is a literal place, then go ahead and believe that. My opinion on this subject is as I have mentioned, is contrary to mainstream.