The theory of Evolution

[Kenny]

I believe most people who dismiss Evolution are ignorant of it. Evolution simply means to evolve. From Epidemiology, to modern medicine, to agriculture; these are all based upon the theory of Evolution. If there were no truth to Evolution; these things wouldn’t work.
There is a lot put under the umbrella of Evolution with the vast majority of it being about germs, bacteria, and plants; only a small percentage of it is about mammals and an even smaller percentage of it is applied to people.

I think to disagree with what Evolution says about people and dismiss the entire theory without considering what it says about germs, bacteria, plants, insects, etc. would be akin to throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

I think to agree what Evolution says about germs, bacteria, and plants; but to disagree about the tiny percentage of it applied to humans is akin to claiming one believes a jet or airplane can fly 35,000 feet above the ground; but to not believe a rocket can fly 300,000 miles above the ground to go to the moon. I know a couple of people who do not believe we actually went to the moon in 1969; they don't deny the ability of people to build machines that fly above the ground (planes, jets, etc.) they just deny the ability of people building machines that can reach the moon.

Your thoughts?

[Audie]

I've observed that people who dismiss TOE are always very ignorant about it.
If the reasons they give happened to be true, I'd be just as dismissive.
In fact, it either would never have existed, or would have long since been relegated
to the dust bin of funny old theories like phlogiston, or geocentrism.

If an eager volunteer would care to name a fatal flaw in ToE, we will have an example of
the straw arguments I refer to.

[jlay]

A basic definition of evolution theory, is "change in allele frequency in a population over time."
If that is the theory of evolution, then count me as an evolutionist.

But that isn't really what you are saying, or asking. So many conflate this basic definition to naturalistic and materialistic evolution. Or, for lack of a better term, Darwinian Evolution. The comment about what applies to humans, is taking observable, testable and repeatable data and then making a leap of faith. Sure we can see NS, srift, mutation acting on EXISTING data. But this cannot explain the existence of the data in the first place. We can recognize mutation in the genetic matrix, yet where are the mutations that account for major structures necessary for complex life? They should be easily identifiable.

You say why not apply what we see happening to bacteria to humans? What do you mean? When have we ever seen a bacteria become something more than bacteria? Or a virus more than a virus? When have we ever observed something in these areas that account for something transitioning from simple to complex based on NS, mutation and shift? The objection is often brought up that we can't see these big changes happening because they require long periods of time. But this ignores the exponential factors at work in populations. How many people are on the earth today. Billions.
What was the earth's population 5k years ago? 10k years ago? And yet, we are to assume that these major changes happened when populations were a mere fraction of what they are today. This also leads to other scary conclusions. Which traits in our human genome are archaic and which ones are advanced? There is no question you can go to places on our planet and find more primitive humans. Are they less evolved? If so, does that make certain human traits more evolved? What does genetic superiority lead to?

We should observe several things. First, we know without question that the conditions for life are favorable on our planet, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. Yet, we don't see life emerging from non-life. And, we know without question, the conditions for life are suitable. Yet, we MUST accept (conceding that naturalism/materialism) it as true that it did in fact happen. 2nd, despite the exponential factor at play on all populations we do not see any major structures appearing. We don't see vision appearing where there previously was no vision. We don't see complex respiration where there was none before. We don't see any such things in transition. We don't see anything above speciation happening. These evolutionary factors can account for diversity in populations, but they cannot account for the populations themselves. And so one MUST, by faith, believe that it happened. Sure, we can speculate. But speculation is not fact.

[Audie]

Or several examples.

Any others?

[abelcainsbrother]

Let's not water down or be mistaken about what evolution has always been about and that is one kind of life evolving into another kind of life over time.Let's not play word games with evolution and yet my point is and still stands that there is no scientific evidence that proves,shows or demonstrates this can even happen,therefore it is true that those who believe life evolves believe it based on faith and assumptions.

When we look at viruses,bacteria,etc that is claimed to be evidence if we look for evidence life is evolving we do not see it in any of the evidence that we can look at,yet why do so many people believe life evolves?I believe people just choose to trust scientists scientific knowledge instead of looking at the evidence themselves,it comes down to faith and trust.

And this is no different than a christian choosing to believe preachers,teachers,etc teach and preach the word of God and they believe them by faith and trust even if they know nothing about science,etc. Yet a lot of times these people are made fun of and put down because they believe it by faith,the bottom line is you do too if you believe life evolves,you can deny it all you want to but you cannot believe life evolves without faith and trust in what scientists tell you.

This is why I see evolution is so much like a false religion.I have researched and studied false religions before and I find the same things in them that I found in evolution,they can teach and tell you all about their god,their religion and all of the things one must do but when you start looking for evidence and then compare it to biblical evidence you see the bible blows them away when it comes to evidence. Evolution is the same way even though I know people will cringe with me comparing it to a religion but I am anyway.

Evidence will change my mind so those who believe life evolves by faith I want to see evidence that demonstrates life evolves,do not go around this and talk about genetics,DNA,fossils, etc,no I want to see evidence one kind of life can evolve and change into another kind of life like you believe happens.

The reality around us is evidence the bible is true,you do not have to go in a lab to see what reality tells you and that is what the bible tells you and that God created the life in this world to produce after its kind and this is exactly what everybody knows about and sees in this world,now if you believe life evolves it would contradict what the bible and reality shows us and it would be up to you to prove with evidence that one kind of life can evolve and change into another kind of life over time like you believe and yet you have no evidence that can back it up and so there is no reason to believe you over reality the bible tells us.

Romans 1:20 " For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,being understood by things which are made,even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

And this is true in so many ways and there are many examples I could point to from marriage,etc but everybody sees that God created the life in this world to produce after its kind,so that you are without excuse for believing something else like one kind of life can evolve and change over time into another kind of life.

[Kenny]

Let's not water down or be mistaken about what evolution has always been about and that is one kind of life evolving into another kind of life over time.Let's not play word games with evolution and yet my point is and still stands that there is no scientific evidence that proves,shows or demonstrates this can even happen,therefore it is true that those who believe life evolves believe it based on faith and assumptions.

When we look at viruses,bacteria,etc that is claimed to be evidence if we look for evidence life is evolving we do not see it in any of the evidence that we can look at,yet why do so many people believe life evolves?I believe people just choose to trust scientists scientific knowledge instead of looking at the evidence themselves,it comes down to faith and trust.

And this is no different than a christian choosing to believe preachers,teachers,etc teach and preach the word of God and they believe them by faith and trust even if they know nothing about science,etc. Yet a lot of times these people are made fun of and put down because they believe it by faith,the bottom line is you do too if you believe life evolves,you can deny it all you want to but you cannot believe life evolves without faith and trust in what scientists tell you.

This is why I see evolution is so much like a false religion.I have researched and studied false religions before and I find the same things in them that I found in evolution,they can teach and tell you all about their god,their religion and all of the things one must do but when you start looking for evidence and then compare it to biblical evidence you see the bible blows them away when it comes to evidence. Evolution is the same way even though I know people will cringe with me comparing it to a religion but I am anyway.

Evidence will change my mind so those who believe life evolves by faith I want to see evidence that demonstrates life evolves,do not go around this and talk about genetics,DNA,fossils, etc,no I want to see evidence one kind of life can evolve and change into another kind of life like you believe happens.

When a doctor does a throat culture by jamming a stick down your throat, he is checking to see what drugs your infection is susceptible to before treating you.

On farms, insecticide will often become ineffective because the insects will evolve in a way that allows them to live with that particular insecticide.
Weeds will often evolve resistant to herbicides in just a few years.

Years ago a worldwide attempt to cure malaria was foiled because the mosquitoes evolved resistant to DDT.

http://whyfiles.org/shorties/085fast_evolution/

These are examples of evolution people deal with everyday

Ken

[abelcainsbrother]

Let's not water down or be mistaken about what evolution has always been about and that is one kind of life evolving into another kind of life over time.Let's not play word games with evolution and yet my point is and still stands that there is no scientific evidence that proves,shows or demonstrates this can even happen,therefore it is true that those who believe life evolves believe it based on faith and assumptions.

When we look at viruses,bacteria,etc that is claimed to be evidence if we look for evidence life is evolving we do not see it in any of the evidence that we can look at,yet why do so many people believe life evolves?I believe people just choose to trust scientists scientific knowledge instead of looking at the evidence themselves,it comes down to faith and trust.

And this is no different than a christian choosing to believe preachers,teachers,etc teach and preach the word of God and they believe them by faith and trust even if they know nothing about science,etc. Yet a lot of times these people are made fun of and put down because they believe it by faith,the bottom line is you do too if you believe life evolves,you can deny it all you want to but you cannot believe life evolves without faith and trust in what scientists tell you.

This is why I see evolution is so much like a false religion.I have researched and studied false religions before and I find the same things in them that I found in evolution,they can teach and tell you all about their god,their religion and all of the things one must do but when you start looking for evidence and then compare it to biblical evidence you see the bible blows them away when it comes to evidence. Evolution is the same way even though I know people will cringe with me comparing it to a religion but I am anyway.

Evidence will change my mind so those who believe life evolves by faith I want to see evidence that demonstrates life evolves,do not go around this and talk about genetics,DNA,fossils, etc,no I want to see evidence one kind of life can evolve and change into another kind of life like you believe happens.

When a doctor does a throat culture by jamming a stick down your throat, he is checking to see what drugs your infection is susceptible to before treating you.

On farms, insecticide will often become ineffective because the insects will evolve in a way that allows them to live with that particular insecticide.
Weeds will often evolve resistant to herbicides in just a few years.

Years ago a worldwide attempt to cure malaria was foiled because the mosquitoes evolved resistant to DDT.

http://whyfiles.org/shorties/085fast_evolution/

These are examples of evolution people deal with everyday

Ken

I agree life can adapt to survive hostile environments as we can see examples all around us like bacteria that lives near radioactivity,but I want evidence life evolves,not adapts,please don't confuse the two,when life can adapts it remains the same kind of life,but if it evolves it changes into another kind of life,let's not get confused.You are showing us evidence life can adapt that nobody denies because we can see it and observe it without having to go into a lab.I want evidence one kind of life evolves and changes into another kind of life.Where is this evidence?

[RickD]

Ken wrote:
When a doctor does a throat culture by jamming a stick down your throat, he is checking to see what drugs your infection is susceptible to before treating you.

On farms, insecticide will often become ineffective because the insects will evolve in a way that allows them to live with that particular insecticide.
Weeds will often evolve resistant to herbicides in just a few years.

Years ago a worldwide attempt to cure malaria was foiled because the mosquitoes evolved resistant to DDT.

http://whyfiles.org/shorties/085fast_evolution/

These are examples of evolution people deal with everyday

Ken,

There's really not anyone here, at least that I can see, that is denying that type of evolution. Able is talking about evolution such as single celled life evolving into sentient human life.

I'm saying this, so you know that when Able talks about asking for proof, he's referring to simple life evolving into sentient life.

[abelcainsbrother]

Ken wrote:
When a doctor does a throat culture by jamming a stick down your throat, he is checking to see what drugs your infection is susceptible to before treating you.

On farms, insecticide will often become ineffective because the insects will evolve in a way that allows them to live with that particular insecticide.
Weeds will often evolve resistant to herbicides in just a few years.

Years ago a worldwide attempt to cure malaria was foiled because the mosquitoes evolved resistant to DDT.

http://whyfiles.org/shorties/085fast_evolution/

These are examples of evolution people deal with everyday

Ken,

There's really not anyone here, at least that I can see, that is denying that type of evolution. Able is talking about evolution such as single celled life evolving into sentient human life.

I'm saying this, so you know that when Able talks about asking for proof, he's referring to simple life evolving into sentient life.

Can I ask why you say that kind of evolution? It is said adaptation is a mechanism of evolution but I don't see evidence.

[RickD]

Ken wrote:
When a doctor does a throat culture by jamming a stick down your throat, he is checking to see what drugs your infection is susceptible to before treating you.

On farms, insecticide will often become ineffective because the insects will evolve in a way that allows them to live with that particular insecticide.
Weeds will often evolve resistant to herbicides in just a few years.

Years ago a worldwide attempt to cure malaria was foiled because the mosquitoes evolved resistant to DDT.

http://whyfiles.org/shorties/085fast_evolution/

These are examples of evolution people deal with everyday

Ken,

There's really not anyone here, at least that I can see, that is denying that type of evolution. Able is talking about evolution such as single celled life evolving into sentient human life.

I'm saying this, so you know that when Able talks about asking for proof, he's referring to simple life evolving into sentient life.

Can I ask why you say that kind of evolution? It is said adaptation is a mechanism of evolution but I don't see evidence.

Evolution is simply change over time. What you are calling adaptation, is evolution. But you are correct, IMO, that there is no proof that sentient humans evolved from single celled life.

However, there is evidence of that. I just happen to think it is unconvincing that the evidence points to molecules to sentient life. I believe the evidence fits PC better.

[abelcainsbrother]

Ken wrote:
When a doctor does a throat culture by jamming a stick down your throat, he is checking to see what drugs your infection is susceptible to before treating you.

On farms, insecticide will often become ineffective because the insects will evolve in a way that allows them to live with that particular insecticide.
Weeds will often evolve resistant to herbicides in just a few years.

Years ago a worldwide attempt to cure malaria was foiled because the mosquitoes evolved resistant to DDT.

http://whyfiles.org/shorties/085fast_evolution/

These are examples of evolution people deal with everyday

Ken,

There's really not anyone here, at least that I can see, that is denying that type of evolution. Able is talking about evolution such as single celled life evolving into sentient human life.

I'm saying this, so you know that when Able talks about asking for proof, he's referring to simple life evolving into sentient life.

Can I ask why you say that kind of evolution? It is said adaptation is a mechanism of evolution but I don't see evidence.

Evolution is simply change over time. What you are calling adaptation, is evolution. But you are correct, IMO, that there is no proof that sentient humans evolved from single celled life.

However, there is evidence of that. I just happen to think it is unconvincing that the evidence points to molecules to sentient life. I believe the evidence fits PC better.

I understand but I see no evidence life evolves at all,as I do not consider adaptation is evolution and I think saying evolution is just change over time is a watered down definition to make evolution more acceptable.I'm separating adaptation from life evolving.I do not doubt life can adapt but this is not evolution to me or what evolution has always been about,it has not been about life adapting but one kind of life evolving and changing into another kind of life like dinosaurs evolving into birds,etc I'm not even getting down to molecules I'm just talking about once the life is here it evolves.

[Kenny]

Let's not water down or be mistaken about what evolution has always been about and that is one kind of life evolving into another kind of life over time.Let's not play word games with evolution and yet my point is and still stands that there is no scientific evidence that proves,shows or demonstrates this can even happen,therefore it is true that those who believe life evolves believe it based on faith and assumptions.

When we look at viruses,bacteria,etc that is claimed to be evidence if we look for evidence life is evolving we do not see it in any of the evidence that we can look at,yet why do so many people believe life evolves?I believe people just choose to trust scientists scientific knowledge instead of looking at the evidence themselves,it comes down to faith and trust.

And this is no different than a christian choosing to believe preachers,teachers,etc teach and preach the word of God and they believe them by faith and trust even if they know nothing about science,etc. Yet a lot of times these people are made fun of and put down because they believe it by faith,the bottom line is you do too if you believe life evolves,you can deny it all you want to but you cannot believe life evolves without faith and trust in what scientists tell you.

This is why I see evolution is so much like a false religion.I have researched and studied false religions before and I find the same things in them that I found in evolution,they can teach and tell you all about their god,their religion and all of the things one must do but when you start looking for evidence and then compare it to biblical evidence you see the bible blows them away when it comes to evidence. Evolution is the same way even though I know people will cringe with me comparing it to a religion but I am anyway.

Evidence will change my mind so those who believe life evolves by faith I want to see evidence that demonstrates life evolves,do not go around this and talk about genetics,DNA,fossils, etc,no I want to see evidence one kind of life can evolve and change into another kind of life like you believe happens.

When a doctor does a throat culture by jamming a stick down your throat, he is checking to see what drugs your infection is susceptible to before treating you.

On farms, insecticide will often become ineffective because the insects will evolve in a way that allows them to live with that particular insecticide.
Weeds will often evolve resistant to herbicides in just a few years.

Years ago a worldwide attempt to cure malaria was foiled because the mosquitoes evolved resistant to DDT.

http://whyfiles.org/shorties/085fast_evolution/

These are examples of evolution people deal with everyday

Ken

I agree life can adapt to survive hostile environments as we can see examples all around us like bacteria that lives near radioactivity,but I want evidence life evolves,not adapts,please don't confuse the two,when life can adapts it remains the same kind of life,but if it evolves it changes into another kind of life,let's not get confused.You are showing us evidence life can adapt that nobody denies because we can see it and observe it without having to go into a lab.I want evidence one kind of life evolves and changes into another kind of life.Where is this evidence?

There is much that falls under the umbrella of Evolution. It appears what you call “adapting” science calls evolution. As I eluded to in the OP I can understand a person believing some evolutionary claims without believing all of them

K

[abelcainsbrother]

Let's not water down or be mistaken about what evolution has always been about and that is one kind of life evolving into another kind of life over time.Let's not play word games with evolution and yet my point is and still stands that there is no scientific evidence that proves,shows or demonstrates this can even happen,therefore it is true that those who believe life evolves believe it based on faith and assumptions.

When we look at viruses,bacteria,etc that is claimed to be evidence if we look for evidence life is evolving we do not see it in any of the evidence that we can look at,yet why do so many people believe life evolves?I believe people just choose to trust scientists scientific knowledge instead of looking at the evidence themselves,it comes down to faith and trust.

And this is no different than a christian choosing to believe preachers,teachers,etc teach and preach the word of God and they believe them by faith and trust even if they know nothing about science,etc. Yet a lot of times these people are made fun of and put down because they believe it by faith,the bottom line is you do too if you believe life evolves,you can deny it all you want to but you cannot believe life evolves without faith and trust in what scientists tell you.

This is why I see evolution is so much like a false religion.I have researched and studied false religions before and I find the same things in them that I found in evolution,they can teach and tell you all about their god,their religion and all of the things one must do but when you start looking for evidence and then compare it to biblical evidence you see the bible blows them away when it comes to evidence. Evolution is the same way even though I know people will cringe with me comparing it to a religion but I am anyway.

Evidence will change my mind so those who believe life evolves by faith I want to see evidence that demonstrates life evolves,do not go around this and talk about genetics,DNA,fossils, etc,no I want to see evidence one kind of life can evolve and change into another kind of life like you believe happens.

When a doctor does a throat culture by jamming a stick down your throat, he is checking to see what drugs your infection is susceptible to before treating you.

On farms, insecticide will often become ineffective because the insects will evolve in a way that allows them to live with that particular insecticide.
Weeds will often evolve resistant to herbicides in just a few years.

Years ago a worldwide attempt to cure malaria was foiled because the mosquitoes evolved resistant to DDT.

http://whyfiles.org/shorties/085fast_evolution/

These are examples of evolution people deal with everyday

Ken

I agree life can adapt to survive hostile environments as we can see examples all around us like bacteria that lives near radioactivity,but I want evidence life evolves,not adapts,please don't confuse the two,when life can adapts it remains the same kind of life,but if it evolves it changes into another kind of life,let's not get confused.You are showing us evidence life can adapt that nobody denies because we can see it and observe it without having to go into a lab.I want evidence one kind of life evolves and changes into another kind of life.Where is this evidence?

There is much that falls under the umbrella of Evolution. It appears what you call “adapting” science calls evolution. As I eluded to in the OP I can understand a person believing some evolutionary claims without believing all of them

K

OK but IMO you are giving them the benefit of the doubt that adaptation is life evolving.I know they say adaptation is a mechanism but I'm not convinced based on their own evidence.

[Kenny]

Let's not water down or be mistaken about what evolution has always been about and that is one kind of life evolving into another kind of life over time.Let's not play word games with evolution and yet my point is and still stands that there is no scientific evidence that proves,shows or demonstrates this can even happen,therefore it is true that those who believe life evolves believe it based on faith and assumptions.

When we look at viruses,bacteria,etc that is claimed to be evidence if we look for evidence life is evolving we do not see it in any of the evidence that we can look at,yet why do so many people believe life evolves?I believe people just choose to trust scientists scientific knowledge instead of looking at the evidence themselves,it comes down to faith and trust.

And this is no different than a christian choosing to believe preachers,teachers,etc teach and preach the word of God and they believe them by faith and trust even if they know nothing about science,etc. Yet a lot of times these people are made fun of and put down because they believe it by faith,the bottom line is you do too if you believe life evolves,you can deny it all you want to but you cannot believe life evolves without faith and trust in what scientists tell you.

This is why I see evolution is so much like a false religion.I have researched and studied false religions before and I find the same things in them that I found in evolution,they can teach and tell you all about their god,their religion and all of the things one must do but when you start looking for evidence and then compare it to biblical evidence you see the bible blows them away when it comes to evidence. Evolution is the same way even though I know people will cringe with me comparing it to a religion but I am anyway.

Evidence will change my mind so those who believe life evolves by faith I want to see evidence that demonstrates life evolves,do not go around this and talk about genetics,DNA,fossils, etc,no I want to see evidence one kind of life can evolve and change into another kind of life like you believe happens.

When a doctor does a throat culture by jamming a stick down your throat, he is checking to see what drugs your infection is susceptible to before treating you.

On farms, insecticide will often become ineffective because the insects will evolve in a way that allows them to live with that particular insecticide.
Weeds will often evolve resistant to herbicides in just a few years.

Years ago a worldwide attempt to cure malaria was foiled because the mosquitoes evolved resistant to DDT.

http://whyfiles.org/shorties/085fast_evolution/

These are examples of evolution people deal with everyday

Ken

I agree life can adapt to survive hostile environments as we can see examples all around us like bacteria that lives near radioactivity,but I want evidence life evolves,not adapts,please don't confuse the two,when life can adapts it remains the same kind of life,but if it evolves it changes into another kind of life,let's not get confused.You are showing us evidence life can adapt that nobody denies because we can see it and observe it without having to go into a lab.I want evidence one kind of life evolves and changes into another kind of life.Where is this evidence?

There is much that falls under the umbrella of Evolution. It appears what you call “adapting” science calls evolution. As I eluded to in the OP I can understand a person believing some evolutionary claims without believing all of them

K

OK but IMO you are giving them the benefit of the doubt that adaptation is life evolving.I know they say adaptation is a mechanism but I'm not convinced based on their own evidence.

So how are you defining the difference between evolution and adaption? Do you say a complete species change is necessary in order for evolution to take place, like the macro vs micro-evolution debate? Or what.

K

[RickD]

Able wrote:
I understand but I see no evidence life evolves at all,as I do not consider adaptation is evolution and I think saying evolution is just change over time is a watered down definition to make evolution more acceptable.I'm separating adaptation from life evolving.I do not doubt life can adapt but this is not evolution to me or what evolution has always been about,it has not been about life adapting but one kind of life evolving and changing into another kind of life like dinosaurs evolving into birds,etc I'm not even getting down to molecules I'm just talking about once the life is here it evolves.

Ok, thanks for clarifying, and I apologize for assuming you meant something that you didn't.

And I think this speaks to the confusion on this subject. There's really not an agreement of what evolution means, before the discussions start.

I think for the most part to be fair, when there's disagreement on what a term means, in order to argue against what someone believes, we should take the definition of the one who believes in it. That way we can properly argue against what they actually believe. Just like it wouldn't be fair if someone is discussing Jesus Christ with a believer, and he's arguing against the Jesus of Mormonism. It's just not fair. If you want to argue against what someone believes, why not concede and use their definition? You're certainly not agreeing that what they believe is true.