Doctrine of Hell

[Rob]

No but if you die not believing then you are not one of the ones coming to him.

So you're saying what Jesus really meant was that He will not lose any of those given, but they are not given until death based upon whether or not they die believing? So really in life if you have a genuine faith you are not given to Him until you die?

How then do you explain John 17:6-12 where He talks about the disciples that were given? They were clearly still alive.

[PaulSacramento]

My point is not to tell you to believe ones saved always saved is wrong but that if you are saved you will because of your love for God not live a sinful life.

How does one NOT live a sinful life ??
Are we God?
All sin and fall short of God that is why we are saved not by what we do but by Grace alone.

No human can lead a life without sin.

Look at the long list of sinners that believed and were apostles of Christ, men like Peter and Paul and Thomas for example.
Can anyone say that even after believing in Christ he has NEVER sinned again ??

[Starhunter]

No we need to think about what we are saying about dying and not dying. Why do we need eternal life if we do not really die.

The bible says that God told Adam and Eve that on the day that they eat of the tree of go and evil they would die.

So lets see what happened they both ate of it and what happened nothing they were both still just as alive as you and me.

So did God lie

No apparently he wasn't talking about death as we know it.

It was a spiritual death.

Adam and Eve did not die on the day God said, because on the same day, he had already provided eternal life for them by the promise of the future Savior. They did not die because they had inherent life in another form.
As for spiritual death, it leads to death and not eternal life anyway.

[Starhunter]

That is why the bible says going to the lake of fire is the second Death.

Rev - "which is the second death."

The first death is when we die from this life and are buried or whatever.
Anybody can be resurrected from that first death, but after the judgement, no one can rise from that death. That is the second death.

Death = death
Life = life
Spiritual death = spiritual death
First death = first death
Second death = second death
Lake of fire = second death
Heaven = eternal life and so on.

Here are some other popular equations, see if they add up -

Death = spiritual death
Life = ghosts escaping from the body
Second death = first death
First death = spiritual death
Lake of fire = another kind of life
Heaven = another dimension or ghost land

[Starhunter]

Please explain how my interpretation of John 6:35-51 is out of context. I would love to hear it.

Once you are saved you cannot be unsaved. If you are unsaved, then you were never saved.

,

Once a person decides to be your partner in love, does not automatically make the relationship unbreakable on either part.
The relationship is conditional, either you work with the partner when things need working out or you run away.

It is no different with God, either the two of you work it out or you run.

Once saved always saved?

[Starhunter]

No but if you die not believing then you are not one of the ones coming to him.

God is merciful and knows we are but dust, losing our faith and dying at that moment does not exclude one from heaven, because God loves and understands our weaknesses.

However the idea of once saved always saved is the other extreme, as usual, where a person can be a reprobate after believing and still go to heaven and meet the One he despises.

A reprobate is someone who believed and then has gone backwards. It's called backsliding.

[Starhunter]

No but if you die not believing then you are not one of the ones coming to him.

So you're saying what Jesus really meant was that He will not lose any of those given, but they are not given until death based upon whether or not they die believing? So really in life if you have a genuine faith you are not given to Him until you die?

How then do you explain John 17:6-12 where He talks about the disciples that were given? They were clearly still alive.

I am fairly sure he does not mean that.

When you choose Christ, it is because He has chosen you through His love and sacrifice. He has died for all, for both believing and unbelieving, because all have sinned and need salvation.
You belong to Christ not on the basis of your merit in choosing Him, but by the merit of God choosing the world in Christ.

There is no merit in your choosing, it does not bring God closer to you, but you closer to God.

At any time you can let that go, and like anyone else on earth who has not believed, God seeks to save again and again, but people ultimately have the choice to continue in the love of God or leave it for good.

[Starhunter]

My point is not to tell you to believe ones saved always saved is wrong but that if you are saved you will because of your love for God not live a sinful life.

How does one NOT live a sinful life ??
Are we God?
All sin and fall short of God that is why we are saved not by what we do but by Grace alone.

No human can lead a life without sin.

Look at the long list of sinners that believed and were apostles of Christ, men like Peter and Paul and Thomas for example.
Can anyone say that even after believing in Christ he has NEVER sinned again ??

If Christianity is about living a life of continued sinning, then how can God judge the wicked?

Genuine Christianity, is the work of Christ in the individual to remove sin out of the life.

Ultimately we are judged by our works - not outward appearances, but the inward heart, the works of the heart which determine the nature of our outward works.
Two people, two identical actions, two different motives, one of Christ, the other of ego. Which does God honor?

Which is sin? Whatever is not of faith is sin. The motive is what makes sin or not, but the outward behavior does not prove anything, except in the eyes of God.

It is not even wise to judge ourselves on these matters otherwise it is not walking by faith, but by behavioral conditioning.

So please don't judge the works of Christ by saying that the believer goes on sinning, and now sins - not openly but discretely and moderately. If that is not a denial of the gospel, I don't know what is.

The reason many professed Christians teach the doctrine of sin in moderation, is because their own lives are proof that the gospel does not save from sin. They claim that their religion is based on faith, when in fact it is based on failure through their own works. It is a religion of works, regardless of how much they think, that having abolished the law, they have a life of grace.

Cherishing sin on some level is the real reason behind this false gospel, and yet Christ is willing to give the victory, if by faith the sinner relies on the works of Christ within him, and not their own behavior modification techniques.

[Storyteller]

I suppose it could all come down to how you define sin.

I believe in God, accept Jesus as my Saviour, I try and live like Christ while knowing it`s pretty near impossible for me to do so. I am not God so therefore I am bound to sin but I am still saved. Christ and God know what lies in my heart. I WANT to live more like Christ. If we all lived as He did then the world would be a much better place.

I accept that I will still "sin" but I also accept that if I allow the Holy Spirit to do it`s work then I will sin less. That copuled with my faith ensures my salvation.

If we were not to sin once we had been saved, if all it took was faith in God then why did Jesus die for us? He died because He knows we cannot live a totally sin free life, at least not in this lifetime.


Please do remember though, I have read very little Scripture. Does this mean that I am foling myself? That I`m not really saved? The only condition that God put on salvation was belief and trust in Christ.

[Rob]

When you choose Christ, it is because He has chosen you through His love and sacrifice. He has died for all, for both believing and unbelieving, because all have sinned and need salvation.
You belong to Christ not on the basis of your merit in choosing Him, but by the merit of God choosing the world in Christ.

There is no merit in your choosing, it does not bring God closer to you, but you closer to God.

Yes, I pretty much agree with everything here, but I might put it differently. Perhaps more emphasis on individual election. World, yes, but less corporate sounding.

At any time you can let that go, and like anyone else on earth who has not believed, God seeks to save again and again, but people ultimately have the choice to continue in the love of God or leave it for good.

I don't know about that one. For me it's like trying to unlearn something that you know to be true. Like being on a raft in the ocean and trying to not believe in the ocean anymore. Or putting glasses on to see the world clearly, but then taking them off and trying to believe that everything is actually blurry. That's not a perfect example, but that's not far off from how I feel about it.

I have fallen and gone through dark days where I have done plenty of wrong and just didn't really care about anyone but myself for a long period of time. I distanced myself from God. I was a believer before all this happened, but I have to say that during all this time I never stopped believing that Jesus was God the Son and that He died for my sins. Sometimes I wish I did stop believing during this time because I might feel less guilty now that I'm out and have come back to Him. I still struggle with the feeling of my assurance sometimes, but I know that's nobody's fault but mine. As I draw closer and closer back to Him I'm sure the feeling of my assurance will come.

Please do remember though, I have read very little Scripture. Does this mean that I am foling myself? That I`m not really saved? The only condition that God put on salvation was belief and trust in Christ.

No, it doesn't. Jesus doesn't need scripture to save you. Scripture is very important though.

[Storyteller]

Absolutely agree with you Rob.

I will, when the time is right for me, read Scripture. I`m looking forward to it. I think i will start with the Gospels, then see where I am led from that.

I totally understand what you mean about the "feeling" of assurance. It is something that I struggled with, and sometimes still do. I console myself with the fact that there are so many of us that go through that and Jesus knows this. His grace and love is big enough to carry us through those times.

[Starhunter]

We don't want to wait for the feeling of assurance, because that can come and go depending on circumstance, and besides that is not walking by faith but by feeling, what is more, it is self centered - concern for ones own salvation.
How am I more important than the millions in the world?

[Storyteller]

No, the very fact that sometimes we express our doubt, shows our truth.
I believe in God. I accept Jesus as my Saviour, yet I still have questions.
I walk by faith. So far, that is the only path I have known.
Self salvation is where it starts.
And you're not more important, you're as important.

[Rob]

We don't want to wait for the feeling of assurance, because that can come and go depending on circumstance, and besides that is not walking by faith but by feeling, what is more, it is self centered - concern for ones own salvation.

Who is waiting? I'm not waiting for anything. I know I'm saved because I believe in Christ and the price He paid for me. I'm just saying that sometimes I lack the feeling of my assurance. Probably the enemy, but I'm just being honest.

How am I more important than the millions in the world?

You're not.

[jpbg33]

If God cut the Jews off for unbelief then we will be cut off for unbelief as well and if we die in unbelief we well not got to heaven. John 3:16 for God so loved the world that who so ever believeth in him should not perish but have ever lasting life. You must believe to live for ever in heaven.