What are your views!

Are you a sincere seeker who has questions about Christianity, or a Christian with doubts about your faith? Post them here to receive a thoughtful response.
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HappyFlappyTheist
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What are your views!

Post by HappyFlappyTheist »

What are your personal views on the following as christians? (Answer honestly, an honest answer is like a kiss on the lips right? (proverbs 24:26) )

1) What shall happen to heathens like me who openly reject the Christian God with access to full knowledge of his mercy, forgiveness (which I suppose coincides with his mercy), and grace (again seems redundant to state, but why not right?). Christ seems to be pretty open and shut on the issue (I.E Revelation 21:8, Romans 2:6-8 -which I suppose isn't Christ speaking, but it's still divinely inspired correct?-, 1John 5:29 -see previous annotation-, Revelation 20:15), however I've heard multiple opinions and theories , so i'm interested in your views. (I.E purgatory, hell, reincarnation- strange but see: http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-pope.htm -, hell for a limited time, et cetera)

2) What shall happen to those who do not have access to the knowledge of his mercy, grace and forgiveness?

3) Why must the Christian worldview be adopted in secular governments? (I.E prohibition of drugs and gay marriage). Note: I'm not attacking the notion, simply asking why. It seems like your personal beliefs would not be altered if such things were legal. Catholics in Holland seem to co-exist pretty well with an incredibly socially liberal government. Why should Christian definitions of marriage dictate a secular governments view on it?
--Note: I understand the whole abortion opposition: Fetus/fertilized egg= Human since conception and termination of such is murder thus it is imperative to defend their life. No need for this---

4) In what ways has Christ changed your life for the better?

5) What is the greatest proof of the Christian God for you personally? -which may just correlate with question #4-



All answers are to be in short answer format. :lol: hardee har har I'm such a jokester.

Don't feel obligated to answer all 5, I'm satisfied even if you answer 1.

I might ask for clarification but for the most part I'm all ears with no questioning/ debate. Feel free to turn it around and put me on the spot as well!
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Re: What are your views!

Post by Danieltwotwenty »

1) What shall happen to heathens like me who openly reject the Christian God with access to full knowledge of his mercy, forgiveness (which I suppose coincides with his mercy), and grace (again seems redundant to state, but why not right?). Christ seems to be pretty open and shut on the issue (I.E Revelation 21:8, Romans 2:6-8 -which I suppose isn't Christ speaking, but it's still divinely inspired correct?-, 1John 5:29 -see previous annotation-, Revelation 20:15), however I've heard multiple opinions and theories , so i'm interested in your views. (I.E purgatory, hell, reincarnation- strange but see: http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-pope.htm -, hell for a limited time, et cetera)
I believe that the soul of those that reject God will be annihilated forever, wiped out of existence, as though they never even existed. But who exactly those people are is not for me to judge, all I know is that Jesus died for everyone so that all may be saved, but not all will want to be.
2) What shall happen to those who do not have access to the knowledge of his mercy, grace and forgiveness?
God is just and will judge fairly.
3) Why must the Christian worldview be adopted in secular governments? (I.E prohibition of drugs and gay marriage). Note: I'm not attacking the notion, simply asking why. It seems like your personal beliefs would not be altered if such things were legal. Catholics in Holland seem to co-exist pretty well with an incredibly socially liberal government. Why should Christian definitions of marriage dictate a secular governments view on it?
--Note: I understand the whole abortion opposition: Fetus/fertilized egg= Human since conception and termination of such is murder thus it is imperative to defend their life. No need for this---
It shouldn't, I find it abhorrent that Christians would interfere with the gift of freewill that God gave to us. Governments should remain secular, period.
4) In what ways has Christ changed your life for the better?
Got me off substance abuse.
5) What is the greatest proof of the Christian God for you personally? -which may just correlate with question #4-
Having a personal relationship with the creator of the universe which is as real to me as my wife.

Dan
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
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Re: What are your views!

Post by HappyFlappyTheist »

Lovely responses Daniel.

It's very inspirational when I hear stories about overcoming the dark path of substance abuse; that for me would be one of the strongest argument for a religion as it seems Christianity has a pretty good monopoly on the whole "I overcame --Insert medically accepted physical/mental depravity here-- through the power of God."

What other belief system does that really? I keep thinking buddhism would, maybe it does and I never hear the stories; who know's?
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Re: What are your views!

Post by bippy123 »

I'll answer no 1
I'm an inclusivist . Inclusivists believe that the only way to the father is through the son just as exclusivists believe but we also believe that if a oerson is searching for God with all his heart and soul and doesn't figure him out perfectly (ie come to the fullness of understanding him through Christ our lord ) he can still be saved as God doesn't judge a person for what they innocently don't know . Examples are the bushman in the African jungle , the Muslim or Hindu born into a country of one religion .

In the end only God knows this persons heart . As far as hell I do believe in it . As far as what it is exactly (fire and brimestone or dark separation from God's holy presence ) I'm not 100% sure , but I know I don't want to find out :mrgreen:

Examples of inclusivistic teachings is the parable of the Good Samaritan where the Samaritan was doing The will of Christ's father while the 2 believers who showed no compassion to the sick old man on the side of the road were not doing the will of the father.

I'm curious about something happy , are u a deist who believes in a personal God or a deist that believes in an impersonal God . I know there are at least 2 schools of thought in deism . My uncle seems to sometimes leans with the personal God deism but can flip over at times. I know as a deist he doesn't believe in any revelatory God but to know God from pure human reason alone.
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Re: What are your views!

Post by bippy123 »

Daniel so me of your answers seem very inclusvistic.
Would u consider urself an inclusivist in any way ?
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Re: What are your views!

Post by HappyFlappyTheist »

@Bippy
To answer your question: I believe in an impersonal, uninvolved, and eternal God.
Last edited by HappyFlappyTheist on Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What are your views!

Post by Danieltwotwenty »

bippy123 wrote:Daniel so me of your answers seem very inclusvistic.
Would u consider urself an inclusivist in any way ?
Yes I would. :ebiggrin:

Careful, we may be labelled heretics, bit like that Jesus fellow was. :mrgreen:
1Tim1:15-17
Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example for those who would believe in him and receive eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.Amen.
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Re: What are your views!

Post by abelcainsbrother »

HappyFlappyDeist wrote:What are your personal views on the following as christians? (Answer honestly, an honest answer is like a kiss on the lips right? (proverbs 24:26) )

1) What shall happen to heathens like me who openly reject the Christian God with access to full knowledge of his mercy, forgiveness (which I suppose coincides with his mercy), and grace (again seems redundant to state, but why not right?). Christ seems to be pretty open and shut on the issue (I.E Revelation 21:8, Romans 2:6-8 -which I suppose isn't Christ speaking, but it's still divinely inspired correct?-, 1John 5:29 -see previous annotation-, Revelation 20:15), however I've heard multiple opinions and theories , so i'm interested in your views. (I.E purgatory, hell, reincarnation- strange but see: http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-pope.htm -, hell for a limited time, et cetera)

2) What shall happen to those who do not have access to the knowledge of his mercy, grace and forgiveness?

3) Why must the Christian worldview be adopted in secular governments? (I.E prohibition of drugs and gay marriage). Note: I'm not attacking the notion, simply asking why. It seems like your personal beliefs would not be altered if such things were legal. Catholics in Holland seem to co-exist pretty well with an incredibly socially liberal government. Why should Christian definitions of marriage dictate a secular governments view on it?
--Note: I understand the whole abortion opposition: Fetus/fertilized egg= Human since conception and termination of such is murder thus it is imperative to defend their life. No need for this---

4) In what ways has Christ changed your life for the better?

5) What is the greatest proof of the Christian God for you personally? -which may just correlate with question #4-



All answers are to be in short answer format. :lol: hardee har har I'm such a jokester.

Don't feel obligated to answer all 5, I'm satisfied even if you answer 1.

I might ask for clarification but for the most part I'm all ears with no questioning/ debate. Feel free to turn it around and put me on the spot as well!
1.Those who reject Jesus and his salvatioj will die in their sins,now because they denied Jesus they will answer to God for their own sins and be responsible for their sin that was never removed.You would go to hell for rejecting Jesus and have to pay for your sins.

Jesus already paid for the sins of those who put their faith in him.God poured out his wrath,anger,judgment,etc on Jesus and put the curse that causes death on him so that we do not pay for our own sins,all of our sins are washed away by the blood of Jesus.Jesus lived a sin free life for us something no person can do.

2.Very few people can now say they've never heard of Jesus and once you have you are without excuse if you reject him.It is prophecied that the gospel will be preached in all the world before the end comes and Christianity is world wide even in places where they cannot practice openly.It is better to stand before God having never heard of Jesus than to have heard of him and rejected him for whatever reason.I'll leave the judging up to God.

3.We believe America was started outcas a Christian nation and don't want to see America turn its back on God.We also know God's word is going to be fulfilled also and we are headed for a one-world government,economy and religion and we can already see glimpses of this prophecy being fulfilled for we already live in a global economy.

4.Jesus when he saves us changes us on the inside to serve God.This is the difference between Christianity and all other religions on the earth for they change theirself by following the laws,rules,religious ceremonies,etc of their religion earning their way to paradise for them by works that they do.In Christianity this is impossible and cannot be done because "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God "and we rely on the finished work of Jesus Christ who lived a perfect life for us.

You can peg a false religion by this if it tells you that you can earn your way to heaven by how you live? It is a false religion which is why all other religions teach this.

5.The greatest proof for me is salvation by Jesus,it is a miracle that you will never forget.One minute you think this way or that way and yet when Jesus saves a person they are suddenly changed and it is like you can finally see the truth,you totally think ddifferent than you did and become a new person on the inside and you want to tell everybody that Jesus saved you.You are forever changed to serve God no matter your condition,you can be an alcaholic,drug addict,etcand are totally changed and delivered,the next thing you know your in a ministry trying to reach the lost.Not everybody who claims to be a Christian is,only those who have been saved and born again are true christians,the ones who are not are hypocrites which means an actor.
Hebrews 12:2-3 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith;who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,despising the shame,and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

2nd Corinthians 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,lest the light of this glorious gospel of Christ,who is the image of God,should shine unto them.
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Re: What are your views!

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HappyFlappyDeist wrote:What are your personal views on the following as christians? (Answer honestly, an honest answer is like a kiss on the lips right? (proverbs 24:26) )

1) What shall happen to heathens like me who openly reject the Christian God with access to full knowledge of his mercy, forgiveness (which I suppose coincides with his mercy), and grace (again seems redundant to state, but why not right?). Christ seems to be pretty open and shut on the issue (I.E Revelation 21:8, Romans 2:6-8 -which I suppose isn't Christ speaking, but it's still divinely inspired correct?-, 1John 5:29 -see previous annotation-, Revelation 20:15), however I've heard multiple opinions and theories , so i'm interested in your views. (I.E purgatory, hell, reincarnation- strange but see: http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-pope.htm -, hell for a limited time, et cetera)

2) What shall happen to those who do not have access to the knowledge of his mercy, grace and forgiveness?

3) Why must the Christian worldview be adopted in secular governments? (I.E prohibition of drugs and gay marriage). Note: I'm not attacking the notion, simply asking why. It seems like your personal beliefs would not be altered if such things were legal. Catholics in Holland seem to co-exist pretty well with an incredibly socially liberal government. Why should Christian definitions of marriage dictate a secular governments view on it?
--Note: I understand the whole abortion opposition: Fetus/fertilized egg= Human since conception and termination of such is murder thus it is imperative to defend their life. No need for this---

4) In what ways has Christ changed your life for the better?

5) What is the greatest proof of the Christian God for you personally? -which may just correlate with question #4-



All answers are to be in short answer format. :lol: hardee har har I'm such a jokester.

Don't feel obligated to answer all 5, I'm satisfied even if you answer 1.

I might ask for clarification but for the most part I'm all ears with no questioning/ debate. Feel free to turn it around and put me on the spot as well!
Short answer format, well I'm out!! ;)
Consise and honest, I'll have a go. Honest I can do, concise a struggle lol

Number 2. Like Dan said, I trust in God. His wisdom and understanding. We trust somewhat in our system of law and retribution. We take into account age, level of intellect, circumstances and motive. Would not God do the same but to perfection and absolute fairness.

Number1. Great question. So in recognising the precision in which the universe and nature is constructed as to lead a person to Deism would not that same principle of mathematics and probability lead someone to recognise the precision in which such a force would be able to judge a person's intent and heart. Keeping in mind what one confesses even to themselves, bringing them to an honest search of truth can falter greatly when faced with the reality of death. When all our chips are down and we are left with absolute certainty of death, it brings a spiritual awakening of unparalleled kick up the ass realism.
It actually doesn't really matter whether it's annihilation or hell. Whether as christians we believe in inclusive or exclusive theology. All it really boils down to is how we have loved God and loved each other. It's more than a hallmark card; love, kindness, empathy, compassion,understanding, humility and generosity. Starting a ripple in the ocean that continues far beyond what we could imagine.
So what will happen ultimately if and when judgment is passed, the same rod we use will be judged against us. That seems fair to me. If one has been honest, patient, kind and loving above being arrogant,merciless and unforgiving God will find His way of bringing us home, even sometimes in the most stubborn and resistant of us.
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Re: What are your views!

Post by Kurieuo »

Geez, some strong questions.
What is your interest?
HappyFlappyDeist wrote:What are your personal views on the following as christians? (Answer honestly, an honest answer is like a kiss on the lips right? (proverbs 24:26) )

1) What shall happen to heathens like me who openly reject the Christian God with access to full knowledge of his mercy, forgiveness (which I suppose coincides with his mercy), and grace (again seems redundant to state, but why not right?). Christ seems to be pretty open and shut on the issue (I.E Revelation 21:8, Romans 2:6-8 -which I suppose isn't Christ speaking, but it's still divinely inspired correct?-, 1John 5:29 -see previous annotation-, Revelation 20:15), however I've heard multiple opinions and theories , so i'm interested in your views. (I.E purgatory, hell, reincarnation- strange but see: http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-pope.htm -, hell for a limited time, et cetera)
I wouldn't use that language -- "heathens".

Have you done any wrong?
How would you expect a fully righteous God to treat you?
When should a fully righteous God draw the line on wrong that we do -- a tiny wrong, one wrong, 10 wrongs, rapists, serial killers, Hitler scale wrongs?
(would we want an all-good God to accept any wrong -- is such even possible?)

If you don't believe a righteous God should accept any wrong, welcome to the club.
So now we're up the creek without a paddle. We all deserve of God's judgement, which can only incur His wrath, unless somehow there is another way.

Romans 3:19-25 --
  • 19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

    21 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.
You'd know Christ says that he is the way, the truth and the life. (John 14:6)
If you don't accept the Way, then you'll stand on your own in that day God is said to judge us all.
HFD wrote:2) What shall happen to those who do not have access to the knowledge of his mercy, grace and forgiveness?
It is Christ that they need not just a knowledge of the doctrine and surrounding concepts.

BUT, to those who Christ doesn't stand in for, such will be judged according to their actions without Christ.
All are without excuse according to Romans 1:18-20.

The question should be more about you.
Presumably you admit guilt to some wrongs like I do.
So I'd be more concerned about your own response rather than someone elses.
Either there is no way an all-righteous God could accept us, and we're all damned (if God departed from the world, this could help explain why God left us?)...
OR God made a different way that doesn't require us to keep the Law 100%.
The "good news" Christ gives us is that there is hope in another way -- Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life (the vanity of the guy!).

So what happens to those who reject Christ or don't have access?

Let me explain via analogy. Say a deadly disease broke out around the world.
Does it make sense that you reject a vaccine because it is unfair that others don't have access to it?
Well, it is kind of unfair. You have access to it though. So it makes sense for you that you take it, and hopefully those who don't will fair alright.

HFD wrote:3) Why must the Christian worldview be adopted in secular governments? (I.E prohibition of drugs and gay marriage). Note: I'm not attacking the notion, simply asking why. It seems like your personal beliefs would not be altered if such things were legal. Catholics in Holland seem to co-exist pretty well with an incredibly socially liberal government. Why should Christian definitions of marriage dictate a secular governments view on it?
--Note: I understand the whole abortion opposition: Fetus/fertilized egg= Human since conception and termination of such is murder thus it is imperative to defend their life. No need for this---
An entirely secular government shouldn't because what do they have to do with God?

BUT, I question whether there are truly entirely secular governments.
Aren't there Christians and people that believe in God in governments also?
Why is it everyone must bow down to those who are secular in beliefs.

Personally, I believe a system under Christ would provide the most loving and accepting society.
I don't trust any human run system to be perfect. It's chasing after the wind whether Christian, secular, Muslim --
but I'd prefer a grace-filled Christian government like I see Christ to be.

Marriage isn't something that really makes sense without God.
What is the purpose for it? Marriage isn't a concept that makes any real sense unless there is an intended design and purpose to it.
An intended design that governments can't give, but only acknowledge.
And if there is no true design to it, or we find out such is only apparent design, then now we've discovered such why pretend?

Abortion isn't a matter of Christian worldview versus others, but a matter of science and human rights being given to all.
Check out: http://www.secularprolife.org/
HFD wrote:4) In what ways has Christ changed your life for the better?
Practical ways I suppose.
No bright lights, miraculous healings. No happy, happy, joy, joy.

God does make it possible for true meaning and value in life.
But, it's not about what God or Christ does for us. In fact, we should expect hardships according to Scripture as God tests and refines us.
I could give stories here and there of personal spiritual experiences.
HFD wrote:5) What is the greatest proof of the Christian God for you personally? -which may just correlate with question #4-
Since you say, "Christian God" then Christ Himself.

One you realise God is personal,
believing God made himself known to us,
then there's not really many options to choose from realistically.

Seriously, there's Judaism, Christianity, Islam and then a lot of spurious offshoots.
Christianity is really a sect of Judaism which believes their Messiah actually came while orthodox Jews are still expecting a Messiah they'll never be able to verify
(since they'll never be able to trace the Messiah back to David). As for Islam, well you can take a look into the history of Mohammad and how the Koran was formed if you like.

Christianity is really the only religion that provides any real hope that God can accept us.
In Judaism, well, what happened to the sacrificial system? How does one become purified of their sin?
And, good luck if you're not born a Jew.

Or Islam, maybe if you die in a holy war you'll get your virgins.
Unless your female, then I'm not sure -- maybe you get to sexually satisfy a martyr?
But otherwise, God wills those who will be "saved" and those who won't. Who knows? Muhammad didn't even know of himself.
So Islam doesn't sound to me like a very good place to put my hope in.
"Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved." (Romans 10:13)
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Re: What are your views!

Post by Silvertusk »

HappyFlappyDeist wrote:What are your personal views on the following as christians? (Answer honestly, an honest answer is like a kiss on the lips right? (proverbs 24:26) )

1) What shall happen to heathens like me who openly reject the Christian God with access to full knowledge of his mercy, forgiveness (which I suppose coincides with his mercy), and grace (again seems redundant to state, but why not right?). Christ seems to be pretty open and shut on the issue (I.E Revelation 21:8, Romans 2:6-8 -which I suppose isn't Christ speaking, but it's still divinely inspired correct?-, 1John 5:29 -see previous annotation-, Revelation 20:15), however I've heard multiple opinions and theories , so i'm interested in your views. (I.E purgatory, hell, reincarnation- strange but see: http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-pope.htm -, hell for a limited time, et cetera)
If you reject the free gift of God's salvation then what is God going to do? Force you to accept him and suffer eternity with someone who you do not want to be with. No God is too loving for that. He will give you what you want. Freedom from his presence. That may be oblivion or hell - though like Daniel - I am inclined to believe oblivion.

HappyFlappyDeist wrote:2) What shall happen to those who do not have access to the knowledge of his mercy, grace and forgiveness?
God will judge their hearts and he will be fair, so all have access to his mercy, grace and forgiveness. But it is still Jesus's sacrfice that saves them. Basically he would know how they would react if they did have access to the knowledge of the Gospel.
HappyFlappyDeist wrote:3) Why must the Christian worldview be adopted in secular governments? (I.E prohibition of drugs and gay marriage). Note: I'm not attacking the notion, simply asking why. It seems like your personal beliefs would not be altered if such things were legal. Catholics in Holland seem to co-exist pretty well with an incredibly socially liberal government. Why should Christian definitions of marriage dictate a secular governments view on it?
--Note: I understand the whole abortion opposition: Fetus/fertilized egg= Human since conception and termination of such is murder thus it is imperative to defend their life. No need for this---

Tough one this. I think there would be world peace if every country adopted a Christian world view - and a loving one, not a judgemental one. But it is difficult to envisage how that would work. Obvious Heaven is a place where everyone has the Christian worldview -so I wonder what conclusions can be drawn from that.
HappyFlappyDeist wrote: 4) In what ways has Christ changed your life for the better?
I do not have some amazing salvation story to offer as my life has been reasonably good. Sure there has been struggles, but nothing life crippling. So how has Jesus changed my life? He has given my life actual meaning. And even though it is not obvious I am sure most of the blessings in my life are from him - my job, my beautiful wife and daughter, my friends, my house. I just know that if I found out today for 100% sure that Jesus is all a lie - I think then my life would be crippled - and I would seriously be considering what the point of it all is.
HappyFlappyDeist wrote:5) What is the greatest proof of the Christian God for you personally? -which may just correlate with question #4-
My anchor point is the answer to the question, why is there something rather than nothing. True that would only give me a deist god. Next after that (although not in any particular order of preference) is the fine tuning of the universe we live in and the reliability and beauty of scripture itself.
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Re: What are your views!

Post by Jac3510 »

I'm a traditional Christian, so I don't think any of my views are terribly surprising
HappyFlappyDeist wrote:What are your personal views on the following as christians? (Answer honestly, an honest answer is like a kiss on the lips right? (proverbs 24:26) )

1) What shall happen to heathens like me who openly reject the Christian God with access to full knowledge of his mercy, forgiveness?
They go to Hell.
2) What shall happen to those who do not have access to the knowledge of his mercy, grace and forgiveness?
They are without excuse. I am sympathetic to the argument that we are only accountable to the revelation we have access to. The practical problem with such a view is that I don't know that it makes a practical difference to your question. The "noble savage" doesn't exist. A look at the reality of the situation and not a sterilized academic version shows that such people tend to systematically reject that general revelation. So the result is the same. They go to Hell. That's why missions and evangelism are so important.
3) Why must the Christian worldview be adopted in secular governments? (I.E prohibition of drugs and gay marriage)
I object to your premise on multiple grounds.

1. There is no such thing as a "secular" government. All governments take both explicit and implicit theological positions. The "secular" claim is highly disingenuous at best.
2. I do not claim that any government should adopt a "Christian" worldview. They should adopt a rational worldview that includes the imposition of natural law on its citizens. That is why things like gay marriage, abortion, and confiscatory tax policies ought to be outlawed. The assumption in your question seems to me that a government that outlaws gay marriage (for example) does so because it is Christian when the reverse is actually true. Christians (and more fundamentally, the Bible) opposes "gay marriage" (which is an oxymoron and no more exists than a square triangle) because it is intrinsically and objectively disordered.

I hold, with Roger Williams, that a "Christian government" would allow full toleration to people of all faiths and no faiths, because Christianity is to be and cannot be consistently regarded as something to be imposed on others. Morality can, and should be. But morality is not tied to religion, and certainly no to Christianity. And morality must be imposed by governments on its citizens because that is one of the functions of government--to promote the common good, which requires an adherence to and promotion of Morality.
4) In what ways has Christ changed your life for the better?
He has made me a more gracious and merciful person. I was once highly legalistic, angry, judgmental, and bitter. As such, I was highly anxious and could have been easily diagnosed with a condition recognized in the medical community as Spiritual Distress (that's a literal diagnosis, and it has serious health consequences). Jesus saved me from all that. Beyond that, I am a cradle Christian. I can't imagine what my life would have looked like without Christ. I just said above that morality is not tied to Christianity, but for political reasons it has turned out that way in practice. I suspect I would have not been as moral a person if not for my deep faith from childhood. Perhaps drugs and sex would have been a part of my life. I certainly wouldn't have been able to marry the woman I did, and I wouldn't have the very stable family I do today. In short, I think my life is better in all ways because of Jesus, but I have no desire to try to find out what the alternative would look like!
5) What is the greatest proof of the Christian God for you personally? -which may just correlate with question #4
I answered that in the other thread. Most personally, my subjective experience of Jesus is more than anything I could or would care to deny. More objectively, thinking about the Christian God in particular, the resurrection of Jesus is foundational, followed closely by the fact that I think the Christian God is the only one that can be consistently accepted on a purely rational basis (i.e., the contingency of the universe demonstrates a Simple, Personal God exists, but such a God must necessarily be a plurality of Persons in order to account for some of the features we see in this world. Is it coincidence that only Christianity affirms a Trinity)?

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I'll only put you on the spot with one question. Who do you think Jesus is and why? (Since we will certainly disagree, please know that I'll almost certainly follow up! ;))
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
Katabole
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Re: What are your views!

Post by Katabole »

HappyFlappyDeist wrote:1) What shall happen to heathens like me who openly reject the Christian God with access to full knowledge of his mercy, forgiveness (which I suppose coincides with his mercy), and grace (again seems redundant to state, but why not right?). Christ seems to be pretty open and shut on the issue (I.E Revelation 21:8, Romans 2:6-8 -which I suppose isn't Christ speaking, but it's still divinely inspired correct?-, 1John 5:29 -see previous annotation-, Revelation 20:15), however I've heard multiple opinions and theories , so i'm interested in your views. (I.E purgatory, hell, reincarnation- strange but see: http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-pope.htm -, hell for a limited time, et cetera)
1) When your flesh body dies you will have a spiritual body and you will receive a mortal soul. (Mortal means, still liable to die). You will have to go through the millenium or the thousand years also called the Day of the Lord, where you will be taught by Christ. During those thousand years you will remain spiritually dead until the Word that is taught to you makes you come alive. After the thousand years are over, Satan will be released one last time to test you. If you are deceived by Satan at that time, then your soul will die. God will destroy you, annihilate you and eradicate you from existence at the Second Death and cause your soul to perish. (Daniel answered that quite well). If you are not deceived by Satan at that time, you will be judged according to your works, (unlike believers who are judged according to their faith, non-believers have no faith) and if God judges your works righteous, then you will receive an immortal soul and live forever and if not then you will suffer the Second Death. You can read about that in the New Testament in Revelation 20 and in the Old Testament in Ezekiel 37 (the valley of dry bones; the spiritually dead who come alive after hearing the Word of the Lord and become a vast army).
HappyFlappyDeist wrote:2) What shall happen to those who do not have access to the knowledge of his mercy, grace and forgiveness?
Again, similar answer to #1: they will be taught during the Day of the Lord where they will see Christ in that dimension and be taught by Him.
HappyFlappyDeist wrote:3) Why must the Christian worldview be adopted in secular governments? (I.E prohibition of drugs and gay marriage). Note: I'm not attacking the notion, simply asking why. It seems like your personal beliefs would not be altered if such things were legal. Catholics in Holland seem to co-exist pretty well with an incredibly socially liberal government. Why should Christian definitions of marriage dictate a secular governments view on it?
--Note: I understand the whole abortion opposition: Fetus/fertilized egg= Human since conception and termination of such is murder thus it is imperative to defend their life. No need for this---
3) Christians are supposed to follow civil law (Roman 13:1-7). When civil law imposed by a government attempts to usurp our God-given right and faith, we have every right to use the laws of the land to prevent our rights from being usurped. I'm not an expert on this but personally, I have been active politically in my own country for a number of years. Lately I have been very vocal at attempts by Western governments to implement aspects of Islamic Sharia law into the historic British common law system.
HappyFlappyDeist wrote:4) In what ways has Christ changed your life for the better?
4) As I jokingly tell my non-believer friends sometimes, prove to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Christian God does not exist and I will prove to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that Hell does. :lol: I would be a very nasty atheist if it were not for Christ's saving grace. Frankly through Christ, I believe I understand life and I am a happier person, when before I had doubt. I read more books by atheist authors then I do Christian authors. I refuse to accept the notion that if there is no God, I am nothing but a soulless bunch of atoms that is simply dancing to my DNA in a purposeless, meaningless existence and that there is no right wrong; no good or evil. If there is no God, I agree with atheist writer John Gray who said, "Human life has no more meaning than slime mold". Or atheist ethicist Peter Singer who said, "A newborn baby has no more meaning than a rusty can, a rock or a chimpanzee".
HappyFlappyDeist wrote:5) What is the greatest proof of the Christian God for you personally? -which may just correlate with question #4-
5) The fact that the Christian religion exists at all. Anyone who has seriously studied first century Christianity should come away with the conclusion that Christians did all the wrong things for the belief system to be successful. It should have failed within a few days after it began if it were not true. Various example would be basing their belief on a crucified man. A man from the backwoods country of Galilee. Making women the last witnesses to Jesus' death and the first witnesses to His resurrection when women at that time (according to Roman records) were not reliable witnesses. And the fact that those who believed in it non-violently gave up their lives to hideous torture and death, just to name a few reasons.

Seeing as you don't mind me questioning you, do you agree with the statements by John Gray and Peter Singer? If no, why not?
There are two types of people in our world: those who believe in Christ and those who will.

If Christianity is a man-made religion, then why is its doctrine vehemently against all of man's desires?

Every one that is of the truth hears my voice. Jesus from John 18:37
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HappyFlappyTheist
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Re: What are your views!

Post by HappyFlappyTheist »

I love the responses jac, very straight to the point and opinionated.

I suppose it would be nigh impossible to challenge your view on secular government because if I said "secular means without influence of a religion" you would claim lack of a religion or atheism is a religion in and of itself and thus secular does not exist. Correct me if i'm wrong, If this is your meaning I fully understand it.

#2 on same topic.
Your concept of natural/rational law is coming from christianity. It's hard to deny that. You hold gay marriage is in opposition to natural law. Where on earth does that view come from? (the bible). You're masquerading biblical law/biblical morals as natural and rational. This is constitutes an opinion. True as it might be to you, it's not to others. A secular government cannot force opinionated morals, BUT wait, you've addressed this in saying that all governments in one way are religiously influenced so therefore I cannot have a valid or sound argument.

Your argument is certainly valid, but I'd questions it's soundness ( I disagree with multiple tenants of almost every premise). But I'm here to learn, thanks for addressing all 5 questions of my questionnaire, I enjoyed reading them jac.
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Re: What are your views!

Post by Jac3510 »

HappyFlappyDeist wrote:I love the responses jac, very straight to the point and opinionated.

I suppose it would be nigh impossible to challenge your view on secular government because if I said "secular means without influence of a religion" you would claim lack of a religion or atheism is a religion in and of itself and thus secular does not exist. Correct me if i'm wrong, If this is your meaning I fully understand it.
Close enough not to quibble about.
#2 on same topic.
Lots to quibble about here:
Your concept of natural/rational law is coming from christianity. It's hard to deny that.
I strongly deny that. Natural law predates Christianity. It is found in Aristotle.
You hold gay marriage is in opposition to natural law. Where on earth does that view come from? (the bible).
Again, I strongly deny that. Gay marriage is in opposition to natural law. NL does not come from the Bible. It comes from pure reason. Since it is true, and since the Bible is true, it is not surprising that we have two independent sources saying the same thing. But your assumption that I reject gay marriage and the Bible rejects gay marriage therefore the I get my rejection of gay marriage from the Bible is just a non-sequitur.
You're masquerading biblical law/biblical morals as natural and rational.
I'm not. You don't understand what you are talking about. That's not intended as a slam. I'm just informing you of a fact that you are misinformed on.
This is constitutes an opinion. True as it might be to you, it's not to others. A secular government cannot force opinionated morals, BUT wait, you've addressed this in saying that all governments in one way are religiously influenced so therefore I cannot have a valid or sound argument.

Your argument is certainly valid, but I'd questions it's soundness ( I disagree with multiple tenants of almost every premise). But I'm here to learn, thanks for addressing all 5 questions of my questionnaire, I enjoyed reading them jac.
And I hope you see why your disagreements are rather meaningless. It would be one thing if you knew what you are disagreeing with. Perhaps after you learn the material you will still disagree. There is no shame in that whatsoever. Nor is there any shame in being ignorant of a particular set of facts. All of are ignorant of something, and all of us were ignorant of all things at some point. The shame is in insisting in your ignorance that the position you are ignorant about is incorrect. Such a disagreement sounds more credible than "Evolution isn't true because monkeys are still here. The argument for evolution is sound, but as the monkeys prove, the premises are just incorrect."

fakeedit:

I'd also refer you back to Kurieuo's responses above and Katabole's answer to your fifth question in particular as very good material I think you should take very seriously. I haven't read other posts very closely, but those jumped right out at me.
Proinsias wrote:I don't think you are hearing me. Preference for ice cream is a moral issue
And that, brothers and sisters, is the kind of foolishness you get people who insist on denying biblical theism. A good illustration of any as the length people will go to avoid acknowledging basic truths.
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