Exclusivism vs. Inclusivism

[Kurieuo]

Before voting please read this post.

I've seen some comments made on Inclusivism.
I have a feeling that people having differing ideas about what it is or isn't.

So I'm starting this thread to discuss the issue and also where people sit on the question.

I found a reasonably good article at: http://www.gotquestions.org/inclusivism ... ivism.html
Please read, then vote on which side you fall down on.

Feel free to state and discuss why you believe one way or another.

As for me, I'd consider myself an Exclusivist as defined at that link.
I don't see how it really could be more clear in Scripture.
Inclusivism seems to me an emotive position imo.

[RickD]

This link explains it in a different way.

Thoughts?

[Katabole]

I voted inclusivist, though I would have liked to have the option of both exclusivist and inclusivist. Exclusivist for believers only. Inclusivist for non-believers only.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

This is clearly speaking about Christian believers that they are saved by grace through faith and not by works.

These are the same Christian believers that take part in the First Resurrection:

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20: 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Those who are Christian believers who are saved by grace through faith shall rule and reign with Christ as priests. No second death for them. They will be granted immortality as a gift of God and live forever.



The rest of the dead, that is everyone else who ever lived who never had faith, they will be taught during this Day of the Lord. After the thousand years are over, then Satan will be released one last time to test these non-believers. Those who follow Satan at this time will be destroyed:

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Those who are not deceived by Satan will be judged according to their works.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

If you notice in the above two verses this group are judged according to their works. This has nothing to do with faith. Why? Because non-believers had no faith. These are they that were NOT saved by grace through faith.

So if God deems their works righteous, then they will pass the final judgment and then they will take part in the Second Resurrection and live forever. If they fail that final judgment, that God deems their works unrighteous (Rev 21:8), then they will not live forever and will suffer the Second Death.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Believers have already taken part in the First Resurrection as described in verses 4, 5 and 6 and have been granted the gift of immortality because of grace through their faith. Non-believers take part in the Second Resurrection and will be granted immortality, only if God judges their works righteous.

I do not consider what I stated an emotional appeal but simply what the Bible has always stated.

[Jac3510]

Exclusivist. Although I might make a technical and purely academic distinction that has no bearing on reality itself, in that I would permit in theory the idea that a person can be saved by responding the general revelation, and that per the inclusivist argument. But such a person would have to be sinless. I think Paul says that clearly enough in Rom 2:7-8. But, of course, the fact is that EVERYONE sins. Every single time a person sins, they reject general revelation. And that is why Jesus' resurrection becomes essential. The moment you sin, you die. The only way to be raised is to have placed faith in Christ, not by being as good as you can and following what revelation is available to you.

And that gets to my basic problem with inclusivism. It says salvation by works is possible if you haven't heard of Jesus, and worse, it waters down that salvation by works by saying that so long as you are better than not, so long as you believe more often than you don't, then its all good. And that's not good. Salvation is not by works because none of us is perfect. And that is why missions is so important and why we need to declare the resurrection so boldly.

[RickD]

Exclusivist. Although I might make a technical and purely academic distinction that has no bearing on reality itself, in that I would permit in theory the idea that a person can be saved by responding the general revelation, and that per the inclusivist argument. But such a person would have to be sinless. I think Paul says that clearly enough in Rom 2:7-8. But, of course, the fact is that EVERYONE sins. Every single time a person sins, they reject general revelation. And that is why Jesus' resurrection becomes essential. The moment you sin, you die. The only way to be raised is to have placed faith in Christ, not by being as good as you can and following what revelation is available to you.

And that gets to my basic problem with exclusivism. It says salvation by works is possible if you haven't heard of Jesus, and worse, it waters down that salvation by works by saying that so long as you are better than not, so long as you believe more often than you don't, then its all good. And that's not good. Salvation is not by works because none of us is perfect. And that is why missions is so important and why we need to declare the resurrection so boldly.

As to the underlined, did you mean to say inclusivism?

[Jac3510]

Yes thank you for the correction rick. Will edit my post.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

The rest of the dead, that is everyone else who ever lived who never had faith, they will be taught during this Day of the Lord.

The above isn't biblical. There is no Second Chance. Die in your sin and you're toast.

I voted exclusivist as the Bible is quite clear on that.

FL

[Katabole]

Katabole wrote:
The rest of the dead, that is everyone else who ever lived who never had faith, they will be taught during this Day of the Lord.


The above isn't biblical. There is no Second Chance. Die in your sin and you're toast.

I voted exclusivist as the Bible is quite clear on that.

FL

Hi FL.

I would say that what I was describing it is not a second chance at all. Many never had a chance period. Either never knowing Christ, raised in a different faith that forbid Christ's teaching or taught in a false church.

FL, who do you believe are those who are judged according to their works in Rev 20:12, 13? If they are Christians, why are they then judged according to their works? If they are not Christians, who are they? Was not their grace through faith enough for them in life to avoid a works based judgment or is there something I am missing?

[Jac3510]

http://www.faithalone.org/magazine/y1992/92feb3.html

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I would say that what I was describing it is not a second chance at all. Many never had a chance period. Either never knowing Christ, raised in a different faith that forbid Christ's teaching or taught in a false church.

This isn't the place to discuss this, and I don't want to derail this topic. Suffice it to say that salvation has always been through Christ - A.K.A God! - even for Abraham, Moses, King David and other OT figures. People brought up in false faiths are also saved by Christ, and Christ alone. God has promised in His Word that all who seek Him will find Him: pagans, heathen and atheists alike. One last point: Romans 1:18, 19, makes it clear that all of us are without excuse. Die in your sin and you're toast, as per Hebrews 9:27.

Don't answer me! Some threads should be derailed but let's keep this one on topic.

FL

[Storyteller]

After reading a post from bippy I thought I was an inclusivist, having read that link and this thread, I'm not so sure now.
I do believe our salvation is through Christ, and Christ alone but I'm sure He would not turn away from someone seeking Him.

When I first started searching for God, I had heard of Christ, sure, but I didn't know Him. If asked I would have said then thatvI believe in God but didnt know enough about Christ to decide on that issue. So was I not saved then?

[bippy123]

I would say that what I was describing it is not a second chance at all. Many never had a chance period. Either never knowing Christ, raised in a different faith that forbid Christ's teaching or taught in a false church.

This isn't the place to discuss this, and I don't want to derail this topic. Suffice it to say that salvation has always been through Christ - A.K.A God! - even for Abraham, Moses, King David and other OT figures. People brought up in false faiths are also saved by Christ, and Christ alone. God has promised in His Word that all who seek Him will find Him: pagans, heathen and atheists alike. One last point: Romans 1:18, 19, makes it clear that all of us are without excuse. Die in your sin and you're toast, as per Hebrews 9:27.

Don't answer me! Some threads should be derailed but let's keep this one on topic.

FL

FL so ur telling me that the bush man in the Amazonian rain forest is damned to hell just because God had decided to put him there ?
There are verses in the bible that can be interpreted as inclusivistic as well as exclusivistic . Inclusivism speaks to God's infinite understanding . The parable of the Good Samaritan . Who did Jesus say was doing his fathers will? The rabbi, the Hebrew man or the non Jewish, non Christian pagan.

I don't understand why people think that inclusivism means that a person is saved by their good works because no good work comes from us but comes from the Holy Spirit.

I can picture the bush man from the Amazonian rain forest about to be judged by God and God damns him to hell and the bushman asks "but lord I never had a chance to get to know you?"

The Lord says it doesn't matter , you are without excuse , onto eternal damnation.
My inclusivism isn't based on feelings , it is based on me knowing that God has infinite understanding love .

And just to show that there are inclusivistic verses in the bible
When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Rom 2:14-16)

This is purely inclusivistic

CS Lewis as wll as John Lennox were inclusivists .
William lane craig was one as well until a few years back when he switched . When asked why he switched he said that those who never heard of Christ would have rejected him anyways .

How in heck does he know this ? It's pure speculation.

When many hundreds of years ago the armies of Mohammad sweeped through modern day lebanon my ancestors hide from them in to very intricate web of caves for many years to preserve their Christian faith.Thanks to them I had a good chance to be exposed to Christ . Would I have been damned to hell if my ancestors had just decided to give up to Mohammad's armies ? Would I have been a Muslim today ?

These questions now cross into a gray area don't they ?

Now if someone was exposed to Christ and openly rejected that's different , but imagine being brought up in a different country and never having the chance to fully learn about Christ in a loving Christian environment .
Only Christ fully knows if that person would have rejected Christ or not if he knew his word fully.

Theologians have been struggling with this question for centuries .
I thank God that I'm. It in that position of not knowing him .

Now when it says no one goes to the father but through the son , that's 100% true but what do u do with the verse above I just quoted ? Does it automatically mean nothing ?

The question is where does God draw the line. Good question. I'll leave that up to God and his infinite wisdom and understanding .

[abelcainsbrother]

I voted exclusivism and let God do the judging knowing he is a just God.

[abelcainsbrother]

Narrow way to heaven

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YaTQ7HMo1y4

[Silvertusk]

Jesus is the only way to Heaven period. It is his atonement that saves us and nothing else.

God knows the heart of every living soul. So he would know how they would respond if given the true Gospel. So in that he would judge fairly. So the Amazon bush tribe man would have his heart judged. The infant lost would be saved as they would be gone before the age of accountability. Those who have the facts and reject Jesus are damned.

That is just my take on it. And I think there is biblical support for that view.

Silvertusk.