Discussion about scientific issues as they relate to God and Christianity including archaeology, origins of life, the universe, intelligent design, evolution, etc.
Kurieuo wrote:A "shadow"? Bah. You inclusivist you....
What do you mean?
I understand what Daniel is saying, I think. That water baptism is the shadow(or symbol) of the baptism by the Holy Spirit. The baptism by the HS, is the one that saves.
So when they're performed concurrently can we safely say that water baptism saves?
I forgot you were still here.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
The modern evangelical mega-churches are too much involved in politics, money, and power in my humble opinion. I think the modern church doesn't seem genuine and turns a lot of people off to God. I think if Jesus were here today I imagine he would be anti-war, pro-welfare, and pro-labor. Not exactly modern day Republican values.
I bet you think Jesus would smoke a fat doobie too! And instead of riding a donkey, he'd drive a Volkswagen van with peace signs all over it.
Baptism by immersion is to show the decision and change that has already been made inwardly -- it's symbolic of our heart belief -- part of the salvation 'process' is the Holy Spirit coming to indwell the believer. That only happens once.
The term 'Christian' is used by many people in a variety of ways -- to some people it merely indicates that they go to church on Easter and Christmas. The Real meaning is that of being a Christ follower. More specifically -- a person who has been born-again. And a lot of people believe that God exists and that Jesus Christ is His Son. That is a head knowledge --a Heart knowledge is placing our faith in what Jesus Christ has done on the cross for us / our sins / that we can't get to heaven through our own actions. The heart believes and our mouth confesses Jesus Christ.
Storyteller wrote:I felt pressured into being baptised (I have been baptised, btw) in one. It was too pushy, forcing belief down my throat.
One demanded we talk in tongues.
One was too 'nice' too sickly sweet if that makes sense.
And yep! I had the people falling to the floor, crying, wailing etc.
I actually adore being in empty churches.
Annette,
Those are all things that would make me cringe too.
Forcing baptism, or forcing anything, is wrong.
Demanding that tongues is a sign of a believer, is wrong.
And sickly sweet, fake smile, fake Christians, make me want to puke. If we can't be ourselves in front of other believers, where can we be ourselves?
Annette,
My educated guess is that your cringing, is your knowing in your spirit, that something was wrong.
That sickly sweet fake smile...
possibly worth a thread in itself.
I think there could be layers, there.
I heard someone remark that seeing someone approach thus,
he'd know it was either a (q-word aka gay) or a christian.
And I think thats what puts a lot of people off the idea of finding God.
As a Christian I still get pissed off, I still get angry, I still make mistakes. It. isnt some magical feel good all the time thing. I dont want to sit atound a camp fire singing Kumbya. I want to make the world a better place. I want to accept everyone for who they are, i want to inspire people.
That sickly sweet perfection isnt God to me. Sure God is perfect but He is far from sickly sweet.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran
Storyteller wrote:And I think thats what puts a lot of people off the idea of finding God.
As a Christian I still get pissed off, I still get angry, I still make mistakes. It. isnt some magical feel good all the time thing. I dont want to sit atound a camp fire singing Kumbya. I want to make the world a better place. I want to accept everyone for who they are, i want to inspire people.
That sickly sweet perfection isnt God to me. Sure God is perfect but He is far from sickly sweet.
Sickly sweet "perfection": Gimme a C! Gimme a U! Gimme a L and a T!
Storyteller wrote:And I think thats what puts a lot of people off the idea of finding God.
As a Christian I still get pissed off, I still get angry, I still make mistakes. It. isnt some magical feel good all the time thing. I dont want to sit atound a camp fire singing Kumbya. I want to make the world a better place. I want to accept everyone for who they are, i want to inspire people.
That sickly sweet perfection isnt God to me. Sure God is perfect but He is far from sickly sweet.
Sickly sweet "perfection": Gimme a C! Gimme a U! Gimme a L and a T!
Yes.
And that isnt a true representation of Christianity in my opinion.
Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof - Kahlil Gibran
"I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians"
Gandhi
There have been threads on here about science turning people away from Christ.
How about religion and the 'church'. That was the biggest 'turn off' for me. I just couldn't swallow the hypocrisy.
Luckily, I was able to distinguish between religiousness and heartfelt Christianity.
I went through a time when I was younger when I wouldn't call myself a Christians not because I was ashamed of proclaiming Christ but I didn't want to be associated with a 'brand' of rightoueness that held no authenticity.
melanie wrote:"I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians"
Gandhi
There have been threads on here about science turning people away from Christ.
How about religion and the 'church'. That was the biggest 'turn off' for me. I just couldn't swallow the hypocrisy.
Luckily, I was able to distinguish between religiousness and heartfelt Christianity.
I went through a time when I was younger when I wouldn't call myself a Christians not because I was ashamed of proclaiming Christ but I didn't want to be associated with a 'brand' of rightoueness that held no authenticity.
"For mine is the God of self righteousness"?
Looking in from the outside, that seems to be the thinking, if not the statement.
I also look in and see that Christians all say that they are remade into better people
thro' gods grace, some even going for that they are free of sin and can infallibly interpret the bible.
Mel wrote:
I went through a time when I was younger when I wouldn't call myself a Christians not because I was ashamed of proclaiming Christ but I didn't want to be associated with a 'brand' of rightoueness that held no authenticity.
I kinda know what you mean Mel. I was in a similar situation.
I went through a time when I was younger when I wouldn't call myself a Christians not because I was ashamed of proclaiming Christ but because Christians is plural. And I realized that I'm one person, and if I called myself "Christians", it would be poor grammar. So I decided to call myself Christian instead.
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Mel wrote:
I went through a time when I was younger when I wouldn't call myself a Christians not because I was ashamed of proclaiming Christ but I didn't want to be associated with a 'brand' of rightoueness that held no authenticity.
I kinda know what you mean Mel. I was in a similar situation.
I went through a time when I was younger when I wouldn't call myself a Christians not because I was ashamed of proclaiming Christ but because Christians is plural. And I realized that I'm one person, and if I called myself "Christians", it would be poor grammar. So I decided to call myself Christian instead.
Ha! Rightieo language police.
Maybe plural takes into account me, myself and Irene
melanie wrote:"I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians"
Gandhi
There have been threads on here about science turning people away from Christ.
How about religion and the 'church'. That was the biggest 'turn off' for me. I just couldn't swallow the hypocrisy.
Luckily, I was able to distinguish between religiousness and heartfelt Christianity.
I went through a time when I was younger when I wouldn't call myself a Christians not because I was ashamed of proclaiming Christ but I didn't want to be associated with a 'brand' of rightoueness that held no authenticity.
"For mine is the God of self righteousness"?
Looking in from the outside, that seems to be the thinking, if not the statement.
I also look in and see that Christians all say that they are remade into better people
thro' gods grace, some even going for that they are free of sin and can infallibly interpret the bible.
I dont believe its remotely true of all of them.
Yeah it's probably not the case of all of them Audie,
When we claim we have been changed it through a lens of humility or at least it should be. Never sinless or with infalliable interpretation. My transformation through Christ leads me to have greater understanding and empathy of others.
Judge not lest ye be judged yourself.
If a person who claims to be Christian wields it with a 'righteousness' to condemn and judge others then it is a form of 'Christianity' that doesn't sit right with me or ring true.
melanie wrote:"I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians"
Gandhi
There have been threads on here about science turning people away from Christ.
How about religion and the 'church'. That was the biggest 'turn off' for me. I just couldn't swallow the hypocrisy.
Luckily, I was able to distinguish between religiousness and heartfelt Christianity.
I went through a time when I was younger when I wouldn't call myself a Christians not because I was ashamed of proclaiming Christ but I didn't want to be associated with a 'brand' of rightoueness that held no authenticity.
"For mine is the God of self righteousness"?
Looking in from the outside, that seems to be the thinking, if not the statement.
I also look in and see that Christians all say that they are remade into better people
thro' gods grace, some even going for that they are free of sin and can infallibly interpret the bible.
I dont believe its remotely true of all of them.
Yeah it's probably not the case of all of them Audie,
When we claim we have been changed it through a lens of humility or at least it should be. Never sinless or with infalliable interpretation. My transformation through Christ leads me to have greater understanding and empathy of others.
Judge not lest ye be judged yourself.
If a person who claims to be Christian wields it with a 'righteousness' to condemn and judge others then it is a form of 'Christianity' that doesn't sit right with me or ring true.
Cant go wrong with the golden rule.
I think evolution provided the mind, the body, and the basic social order on which we base morality and ethics, but the golden rule is not practiced by anyone but us, so far as we know.
Morality like "golden rule" was something people developed over and over, I think, in different societies, different parts of the world. Its like it was "out there", waiting to be discovered. Like math is "out there". (hey, DONT ask me how it got out there!)
melanie wrote:"I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians"
Gandhi
There have been threads on here about science turning people away from Christ.
How about religion and the 'church'. That was the biggest 'turn off' for me. I just couldn't swallow the hypocrisy.
Luckily, I was able to distinguish between religiousness and heartfelt Christianity.
I went through a time when I was younger when I wouldn't call myself a Christians not because I was ashamed of proclaiming Christ but I didn't want to be associated with a 'brand' of rightoueness that held no authenticity.
"For mine is the God of self righteousness"?
Looking in from the outside, that seems to be the thinking, if not the statement.
I also look in and see that Christians all say that they are remade into better people
thro' gods grace, some even going for that they are free of sin and can infallibly interpret the bible.
I dont believe its remotely true of all of them.
Yeah it's probably not the case of all of them Audie,
When we claim we have been changed it through a lens of humility or at least it should be. Never sinless or with infalliable interpretation. My transformation through Christ leads me to have greater understanding and empathy of others.
Judge not lest ye be judged yourself.
If a person who claims to be Christian wields it with a 'righteousness' to condemn and judge others then it is a form of 'Christianity' that doesn't sit right with me or ring true.
Cant go wrong with the golden rule.
I think evolution provided the mind, the body, and the basic social order on which we base morality and ethics, but the golden rule is not practiced by anyone but us, so far as we know.
Morality like "golden rule" was something people developed over and over, I think, in different societies, different parts of the world. Its like it was "out there", waiting to be discovered. Like math is "out there". (hey, DONT ask me how it got out there!)
Audie,
Could you explain the underlined part for me? How does the human mind fit into the ToE? Or, how did a non physical mind, evolve from the purely physical?
John 5:24 24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow
St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
