Life From A Void

[Believer]

Okay, people who are in favor of Darwinian Evolution/Neo-Darwinian Evolution, which means that the theory says there never was a divine God to jump start life in the first place and it life came from NOTHING, I would like you to prove your case with all the research out there available, and logically prove a divine God didn't jump start life, since a select minority of you believe so. I will start with a post I made on a different thread which is in favor for a divine God as it seems incredibly illogical that no divine God exists:

Life doesn't come from non-life or nothingness. The quantum theory of "particles" that pop into reality from nothing and then back out into nothing STILL has to have design, the "particles" are composed of elements. Before the universe, there was nothing, a blank slate, so how do these "particles" exist? Even before nothing there still was nothing, it would continue for infinity.

[Blob]

Okay, people who are in favor of Darwinian Evolution/Neo-Darwinian Evolution,

I'm unsure what you mean by in favour of evolution. If you mean that as a theory evolution provides a fruitful mental tool for thinking about the diversity of life then I guess I am.

I'm unclear as to the distinction between darwinian evolution and neo-darwinian evolution. Perhaps it is a reference to the fact that Darwin's ideas were based on observation of living things and when genetics came along it vindicated evolution, albeit with some peripheral alterations here and there. Would Darwinian/Neo-Darwinian evolution be analogous to the distinction between, say, Newtonian mechanics and Quantum mechanics - both are helpful mental tools for theorising about reality and one is more refined than the other?

which means that the theory says there never was a divine God to jump start life in the first place and it life came from NOTHING,

I'm not familiar with a theory that explicitly says there is no divine god and furthermore life came from nothing. If such a theory exists I do not and would not adhere to it. I guess I'm not who you are looking for to answer your challenge about "logical proof of no god".

Life doesn't come from non-life or nothingness.

It seems reasonable to think that life could have had a beginning. Why are you so certain life has been around for an eternity?

The quantum theory of "particles" that pop into reality from nothing and then back out into nothing STILL has to have design, the "particles" are composed of elements.

You are correct that quantum vacuum fluctuations do not come from nothing. They come from the fabric of spacetime. But why are you so absolutely certain they have to have design?

Before the universe, there was nothing, a blank slate, so how do these "particles" exist?

I totally agree that quantum vacuum fluctuations do not necessarily say anything about how the known universe came into existence. The reason for this is simple high school set theory, which states that the properties of a set are not necessarily the properties of members of that set. If the universe is considered as a set of quantum events (amongst other members) then it does not follow that it necessarily shares the properties of those quantum events.

However, neither are quantum vacuum fluctuations necessarily not what 'banged' in the big bang. Indeed, some physicists are playing with an idea, called cosmic inflation, that the universe is in some sense a kind of big quantum fluctuation.

To answer your question "how do these 'particles' exist" I would be happy to provide some reading material but it would be useful to know your level of mathematics so I can select appropriately.

Even before nothing there still was nothing, it would continue for infinity.

How can nothing continue for infinity? Time is a property of the known universe, not of nothing. If there is nothing there is no time and if there is no time there is no "continuing for infinity".


Hope that's interesting. I have to say I rather get the impression you feel annoyed with people who do not share your opinion of how we came to be here on planet Earth; and as such you wish to pigeon hole such people and put words in their mouths in order to discredit them. I hope I am mistaken and forgive me for saying that if I am.

Discussions like this can get rather heated and unpleasant if we are not civil and do not genuinely listen to one another. I have made an effort to find common points and agree with you where I can. Please return the favour. Of course, where I disagree I have said so and expect you will do the same.

I look forward to your response.

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Okay, people who are in favor of Darwinian Evolution/Neo-Darwinian Evolution, which means that the theory says there never was a divine God to jump start life in the first place and it life came from NOTHING,

No, the theory does not state this.

I would like you to prove your case with all the research out there available, and logically prove a divine God didn't jump start life, since a select minority of you believe so. I will start with a post I made on a different thread which is in favor for a divine God as it seems incredibly illogical that no divine God exists:

There is no concrete evidence either way.

Life doesn't come from non-life or nothingness.

Within the confines of evolutionary theory this is true.

The quantum theory of "particles" that pop into reality from nothing and then back out into nothing STILL has to have design,

How so?

the "particles" are composed of elements. Before the universe, there was nothing, a blank slate, so how do these "particles" exist? Even before nothing there still was nothing, it would continue for infinity.

This is refering to the Big Bang expansionism I gather. The theory does not go back farther than the first moments of current expansion. It does not elaborate on what happens before.

[Believer]

Okay, people who are in favor of Darwinian Evolution/Neo-Darwinian Evolution, which means that the theory says there never was a divine God to jump start life in the first place and it life came from NOTHING,

No, the theory does not state this.

Sorry, what I meant was that the theory of Darwinian Evolution/Neo-Darwinian Evolution teaches that everything came naturally with no reference to God setting it into motion. Therefore, I get the sense that Darwin believed that life came from nothing. This is what the atheistic scientists hold on to so firmly. That no God exists. But logically, HOW does anything come from nothing? These scientists are so hell-bent on trying to prove this, it can't be proven. The logical explanation is a divine God. For, it is not up to us to figure out how such a being came into existence in the first place, because thinking it is mind boggling. The Bible says he is the uncreated. So take it upon faith. I believe prior to the universe being made there was no color, black or white, as the clean slate, but God was there. I wouldn't know how to describe it and trying to do so would result in mental suicide . I believe now that evolution has been discovered, fine, it is accepted whereas it wasn't over 150 years ago. Yet, I don't agree that it came about from nothingness, and I also don't agree that darwinian evolution/neo-darwinian evolution in that theory is 100% right. I don't believe another kind of species evolved from a completely different species, such as a horse from a fly. I also have been finding difficulty in that specific theory that we STILL have a missing link or links after over 150 years when we already have the map of evolution laid out.

As for the quantum "particles" (I don't know what these things are so I use "particles" instead), popping into existence from nothingness and popping out of existence into nothingness, they still have a design to them to be able to do that. Again, we start with 100% nothing, a void, so how do these "particles" exist without a God?

[BGoodForGoodSake]

Okay, people who are in favor of Darwinian Evolution/Neo-Darwinian Evolution, which means that the theory says there never was a divine God to jump start life in the first place and it life came from NOTHING,

No, the theory does not state this.

Sorry, what I meant was that the theory of Darwinian Evolution/Neo-Darwinian Evolution teaches that everything came naturally with no reference to God setting it into motion. Therefore, I get the sense that Darwin believed that life came from nothing.

You are probably right.

This is what the atheistic scientists hold on to so firmly. That no God exists. But logically, HOW does anything come from nothing?

It's illogical. But these theories address other issues not evolution directly.

These scientists are so hell-bent on trying to prove this, it can't be proven. The logical explanation is a divine God.

Well that is certainly not nothing.

For, it is not up to us to figure out how such a being came into existence in the first place, because thinking it is mind boggling. The Bible says he is the uncreated. So take it upon faith. I believe prior to the universe being made there was no color, black or white, as the clean slate, but God was there. I wouldn't know how to describe it and trying to do so would result in mental suicide .

Many have not reached this conclusion, having ruled out the bible as evidence.

I believe now that evolution has been discovered, fine, it is accepted whereas it wasn't over 150 years ago. Yet, I don't agree that it came about from nothingness, and I also don't agree that darwinian evolution/neo-darwinian evolution in that theory is 100% right.

It is good to be skeptical, there is no way it can be 100% right.

I don't believe another kind of species evolved from a completely different species, such as a horse from a fly. I also have been finding difficulty in that specific theory that we STILL have a missing link or links after over 150 years when we already have the map of evolution laid out.

150 years may seem like a long time but I am sure even if we had an infinite amount of time we will never complete the puzzle. I'll explain it this way even today with video recording and other recording media we cannot have a full record of everything which occured during any given incident. How can we expect a complete picture from random fossil deposits, spanning millions of years?

As for the quantum "particles" (I don't know what these things are so I use "particles" instead), popping into existence from nothingness and popping out of existence into nothingness, they still have a design to them to be able to do that. Again, we start with 100% nothing, a void, so how do these "particles" exist without a God?

Don't know.

Quantum physics is based on the principal that there is a minimum energy in reality represented by the planks constant. Minimum energy of course equals minimum mass as well due to E=mc2. This means you cannot divide any further! And it also means that energy is not a stream at these microscopic levels but discrete packages or particles!

Heres what we do know, the particles phasing in and out of our three dimentional space time come in pairs of particles and anti-particles thus not violating the conversation of mass. In order for it not to violate the first law of thermodynamics (The conservation of Energy) this "vacuum" must have energy as well. And this appears to be the case. So in not violating both of these laws the particles are indeed not phasing in and out of our space time but in fact appearing into reality. It seems at the quantum level energy and mass is in a flux. Quantum level meaning at the smallest level of measurement. In fact it has been shown mathematically that if one were to increase the average temperature of the universe to unimaginable levels that normal particals which exhibit mass would be essentially mass-less zipping around at close to light speeds!

[Blob]

Sorry, what I meant was that the theory of Darwinian Evolution/Neo-Darwinian Evolution teaches that everything came naturally

That's still not it. Evolution refers only to how life progresses once it has already started.

with no reference to God setting it into motion.

Not at all. No. My mother is a committed, practising Christian and accepts the theory of evolution.

Therefore, I get the sense that Darwin believed that life came from nothing.

I'm unsure as to what Darwin personally thought about how life started. But I do know that the theory of evolution makes no comment on how life got started. I'm not saying this to be difficult I promise you. It really honestly sincerely doesn't.

This is what the atheistic scientists hold on to so firmly. That no God exists.

Remember what I said in my first post in this thread?...

I have to say I rather get the impression you feel annoyed with people who do not share your opinion of how we came to be here on planet Earth; and as such you wish to pigeon hole such people and put words in their mouths in order to discredit them.

I'm sorry to say that is what you are doing here. To suggest scientists are all atheists, or that all atheists firmly hold onto the notion that god does not exist, or that scientist who do call themselves atheists have an agenda to prove atheological points as a prime motivation in the work, is simply unfair and ungrounded. Not all scientists are atheists. A microbiologist friend of mine is an Seventh Day Adventist for example. I call myself an atheist but I acknowledge god might exist (call me an agnotsic if you wish, I really don't mind, but I choose to call myself an atheist).

But logically, HOW does anything come from nothing?

Who says it does? I don't know anyone who thinks that.

These scientists are so hell-bent on trying to prove this, it can't be proven.

Yeah... again, thinker:
I have to say I rather get the impression you feel annoyed with people who do not share your opinion of how we came to be here on planet Earth; and as such you wish to pigeon hole such people and put words in their mouths in order to discredit them.

The logical explanation is a divine God.

Logical in what sense? Mathematical logic, predicate logic or modal logic?

For, it is not up to us to figure out how such a being came into existence in the first place, because thinking it is mind boggling. The Bible says he is the uncreated. So take it upon faith. I believe prior to the universe being made there was no color, black or white, as the clean slate, but God was there. I wouldn't know how to describe it and trying to do so would result in mental suicide .

I agree that we cannot know everything. There are certainly things out there that neither you nor I do nor possibly could comprehend. I doubt we even know so much as a millionth percent of what there is to know (if such a measurement has any true meaning which I doubt). But why does our very human, mutual lack of knowledge mean you are right and others are wrong?

I believe now that evolution has been discovered, fine, it is accepted whereas it wasn't over 150 years ago.

I agree.

Yet, I don't agree that it came about from nothingness, and I also don't agree that darwinian evolution/neo-darwinian evolution in that theory is 100% right.

What do you mean by 100% right? Could you honestly give an example of a theory you know to be 100% right? I certainly couldn't.

I don't believe another kind of species evolved from a completely different species, such as a horse from a fly.

There are many observed examples. Would you like me to provide you with some scientific papers? As an educationalist I am dedicated to bringing knowledge to people and so would be delighted to do so.

I also have been finding difficulty in that specific theory that we STILL have a missing link or links after over 150 years when we already have the map of evolution laid out.

What do you mean by missing link? It seems that any new organism that fits in a particular gap would create two new 'missing links' either side of it. Wouldn't you agree? For example I have two inches less height than my father. Does this mean there is a missing link of an intermediate with only one inch difference? At what point would you be happy to say ok, there is no missing link there anymore?

As for the quantum "particles" (I don't know what these things are so I use "particles" instead), popping into existence from nothingness and popping out of existence into nothingness, they still have a design to them to be able to do that. Again, we start with 100% nothing, a void, so how do these "particles" exist without a God?

You are quite correct to call them particles. That is a perfectly good term.

I did explain quite clearly in my post above that quantum vacuum fluctuations do not come from nothing. I also offered to provide some reading materials. I am delighted you are interested in learning about quantum mechanics but have to ask myself - Did thinker even read my post?