The Anti-Christ to defeat all believers?

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:23 pm

That wopuld definately be the case if the rapture is post-trib! We cannot ever be sure of our salvation if anyone can take it away from us. Thats why the resurection has to come and then the tribulation starts.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:45 pm

[quote="waynes world"]One thing you have NOT been is consistant! Everytime I disprove the preterist idea you switch to the post trib view. [\quote]
Wrong. I've have been consistently preterist, which you have not "disproved". I've never switched to any other view.

Where have you disproved the "preterist" view?

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:51 pm

waynes world wrote:That wopuld definately be the case if the rapture is post-trib! We cannot ever be sure of our salvation if anyone can take it away from us. Thats why the resurection has to come and then the tribulation starts.

The Bible disagrees.

Daniel 12:13
“But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.”

John 6:39, 40, 44
"This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day...And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Rejected by His Own...No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 11:23-24
"Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”"

When does the resurrection take place? Before the "tribulation" or on the Last day. It can't be both. What does the Bible say?

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:46 pm

Not hardly. The Bible agrees with me and I wish you would make up your mind. Are you a preterist or a post tribber? Now you defend the latter, but before it was the former. Any view but pre-trib, is that it? Has it occured to you that it might be the right view?

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Wed Sep 14, 2005 7:48 pm

Read the end of Matthiew 24 and you will see that no one knows when the rapture happens. Is Jesus lying? How can we not know when it is if we go through the tribulation? What does Paul mean when he says we are not appointed to wrath? Is he lying too?

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 4:56 am

Wayne, let me clarify one more time.

I am a preterist. I have never been anything else. (A preterist is, in a sense, a post-tribber, since the tribulation has already happened.)

If the Bible agrees with you, then give me one verse that teaches a "pre-trib" rapture. You haven't quoted a single scripture to support this. All you say is that "my pastor teaches it", and "the Bible agrees with me". Fine. Show me where. How do you deal with the scrptures I posted showing very clearly that the resurrection takes place on the last day, not before a tribulation period.

And, one more time, Matthew 24 does not mention a rapture.

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:10 am

puritan lad wrote:Wayne, let me clarify one more time.

I am a preterist. I have never been anything else. (A preterist is, in a sense, a post-tribber, since the tribulation has already happened.)

If the Bible agrees with you, then give me one verse that teaches a "pre-trib" rapture. You haven't quoted a single scripture to support this. All you say is that "my pastor teaches it", and "the Bible agrees with me". Fine. Show me where. How do you deal with the scrptures I posted showing very clearly that the resurrection takes place on the last day, not before a tribulation period.

And, one more time, Matthew 24 does not mention a rapture.

You have never read verses 31 to the end of Matt 24. You havent read 1 Cor 15:51 and following. They talk about the rapture being pre-trib. So does Rev 18:4. Why do you keep changing your position? You just now said you have never been a preterist. So which is it? Both can't be right. I have always been a pre-tribber and think its supported by the Bible.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 11:32 am

waynes world wrote:You have never read verses 31 to the end of Matt 24.

I have indeed. Where is the pre-trib rapture?

waynes world wrote:You havent read 1 Cor 15:51 and following.

Yes. The "tribulation" isn't mentioned anywhere in this verse.

waynes world wrote:They talk about the rapture being pre-trib.

Where? Point to the exact phrase that you are speaking of. I can't see it.

waynes world wrote:So does Rev 18:4.

Say what?

Revelation 18:4
"And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues."

Where is the pre-trib rapture Wayne. Please expound.

waynes world wrote:Why do you keep changing your position? You just now said you have never been a preterist. So which is it? Both can't be right.

Wayne, you read my post about as well as you read the Bible. I do NOT keep changing my position. I said that I AM a preterist, and have never been anything else. I do NOT keep changing my position. Let me repeat, I AM A PRETERIST. Is that clear enough for you?

waynes world wrote:I have always been a pre-tribber and think its supported by the Bible.

I am aware of this. But you have not shown where your view is supported by the Bible.

PS. You didn't answer my questions.

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:16 pm

You have stated otherwise and often. I really don't know what you believe you keep switching your views, something I have never done. If the rapture is not pre-trib we who believe will be in a lot of danger and the beast will be able to deceive us and we can risk our salvation. The rapture has to come first and then the tribulation. ! cor 15:15, Matt 24:31 and following and Revelation 18:4 teach that pretty clearly

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Thu Sep 15, 2005 10:18 pm

I answered your questions but you think an answer you don't like is a non answer. I find it very offensive that you have such little respect toward those who think differently than you and might not view the Bible the same way you do.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:51 am

Good enough Wayne. We don't seem to be getting anywhere.

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:10 pm

Revelation 18:4 says we will not go through the tribulation and experience the plagues. The rapture happens first not later or in the 1st century. "I heard a Voice from heaven (Jesus) saying come out my people (us) that you may not share in the plagues of this generation

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:45 am

waynes world wrote:Revelation 18:4 says we will not go through the tribulation and experience the plagues. The rapture happens first not later or in the 1st century. "I heard a Voice from heaven (Jesus) saying come out my people (us) that you may not share in the plagues of this generation

Jesus told His people (the First Century Church) to come out of "that great city" (Jerusalem) so that they would not experience the plagues. (See Luke 21:20-24). What does that have to do with a rapture?

Try again.

waynes world · Post by **waynes world** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 11:25 am

He is NOT talking about Israel or Jerusalem! If you know your history at all the exact opposite happened in 70 ad so therer's no way the rapture could have happened then! He's talking to us te believers because Israel rejected Jesus as their messiah but we havent. He also said the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the darkness.

puritan lad · Post by **puritan lad** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 5:42 am

waynes world wrote:He is NOT talking about Israel or Jerusalem! If you know your history at all the exact opposite happened in 70 ad so therer's no way the rapture could have happened then! He's talking to us te believers because Israel rejected Jesus as their messiah but we havent. He also said the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the darkness.

Wayne,

I'm not enjoying this debate at all. How many times do I have to say this before you get it?

I do not believe in a 70 AD rapture. I don't believe in the rapture, period.

Rev. 18:4 says NOTHING about a rapture. Rev. 18:4 is telling Christian Jews to leave Jerusalem, just like Luke 21:20-24 (yes, some Jews did become Christians, such as the 3,000 on the Day of Pentecost).

The scripture is about Jerusalem. What other city is called a harlot in the Bible (Isaiah 1:21)? What other city is the location of the temple (Rev. 11:1-2). In what other city was our Lord crucified (Rev. 11:8)? What other city was destroyed by the Roman Empire (the Beast) (Rev. 17-19) shortly after the 6th Roman Emperor (Rev. 17:10)? It is you who need a history lesson.

By the way, I'm beginning to understand why you think that I keep changing my position. I have not. It is you who keep changing my position.