Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

General discussions about Christianity including salvation, heaven and hell, Christian history and so on.
User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 22063
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen

Re: Eternal Security...

Post by RickD »

jpbg33 wrote:
RickD wrote:
What about it?

I think it's about ten Jewish disciples in the tribulation who are awaiting the return of the King.


I'm not trying to say you are wrong just trying to understand what you are saying. I may write something later if I do not agree, but I am not clear on what you are saying here. Are you saying that disciples can backslid or are you saying that all disciples are not saved or are you saying that you can not get saved in the but you can be a disciple in the tribulation and you believe post trib or pre trib.
First,

You need to look at the audience to whom Jesus was telling the parable.

The parable is specifically talking about Jewish disciples, during the tribulation. You can't just assume everything said, automatically pertains to believers in the church age too.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male

Re: Eternal Security...

Post by jpbg33 »

That is why I am asking if you believe pre trib or if you believe post trib. because if you are pre trib then yes you can say it is different then it is now, but if you say you believe post trib then you have to say that it is the same then as it is now.
User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 22063
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen

Re: Eternal Security...

Post by RickD »

jpbg33 wrote:That is why I am asking if you believe pre trib or if you believe post trib. because if you are pre trib then yes you can say it is different then it is now, but if you say you believe post trib then you have to say that it is the same then as it is now.
I don't see what difference it makes if I believed in a pre-trib or post-trib rapture, if the text is talking about Jewish disciples during the tribulation.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male

Re: Eternal Security...

Post by jpbg33 »

Well it doesn't matter if you are Jew or Gentile to day and until Jesus comes back you get saved the same way. There are Jews being saved to day, and they get saved the same way as us. So if there is a new formula in the tribulation of how someone is saved and stays saved. Then it would have to be after Jesus comes back (pre trid) I believe pre trib and believe you are saved the same way as us to day, but if you believe post trib then you have to believe that the parable of the 10 virgins and 5 didn't make it means you can backslid. Because thing are still the same as today and they did. The only difference is we are in the tribulation.
User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 22063
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen

Re: Eternal Security...

Post by RickD »

jpbg33 wrote:Well it doesn't matter if you are Jew or Gentile to day and until Jesus comes back you get saved the same way. There are Jews being saved to day, and they get saved the same way as us. So if there is a new formula in the tribulation of how someone is saved and stays saved. Then it would have to be after Jesus comes back (pre trid) I believe pre trib and believe you are saved the same way as us to day, but if you believe post trib then you have to believe that the parable of the 10 virgins and 5 didn't make it means you can backslid. Because thing are still the same as today and they did. The only difference is we are in the tribulation.
Oh ok, I see what you're saying. And you bring up a good point. If you want to discuss it, you can start a new thread. I'm afraid I haven't really studied the end times much at all. In fact I really don't have a position regarding the rapture, other than I believe that believers will not suffer God's wrath. So, be it pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, or something else, I just don't have a position.
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male

Re: Eternal Security...

Post by jpbg33 »

ok I ma open a new thread, but first I wont to state what I believe the 10 virgin parable is about. You do not have to comment if you do not want to. I would like to say what I think it means. If you post back to show where I am wrong that is fine, but I will not post back on it because it looks like everyone is getting tiered of this thread. I would like you to post back about where you think I am wrong on it those, because I may be getting it wrong. I don't think I am but I would like to put it out there. In the future I ma post back on here if it pics back up but for now I am going to stop. Because it looks like people are tiered of debating it right now. I obviously could go on and on I guess I like betting a dead horse.


What I believe the parable is explaining is the time of the coming of Jesus. I was reading the chapter before it was speaking of when he would return and the disciples asked him how to know when the end times was referring to the time Jesus was speaking of, Him coming back to earth and taking the Christians away. So Jesus was explaining what to look far to know that the time of His coming was. I do not believe He was talking about the tribulation, but he was talking about His coming. Because if He was talking about the tribulation then He would of mentioned the water turning to blood or the 2 prophets that come down from heaven or any of the other major events that will be taking place in the tribulation they would be easy to see, but he didn't mention any of them He just mentioned things getting worse and worse, things that are going on all the time right now getting worse, but just before His coming they will be happening way more then they are now. So cense I believe that I do not believe that the parable was referring to the tribulation but to what He just said in to chapter before and He didn't mention the tribulation in the chapter before so I do not believe the parable was about the tribulation ether.

The way I interpret it is that the 10 virgins are people who get saved on earth, and the lamps and oil represents our faith, and the light of the lamp is our good works. I get that about the light from where the Bible say Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. I believe where the parable says slumbered and sleep it is referring to the virgins dying, because when Jesus referred to someone being dead He said they were sleeping. He said lazareth was sleeping then when the disciples said then he must be fine then He told them no I mean He is dead, and He said that the girl He raised up was sleeping, but He did say He was going to die, but I think He said that to make for sure we know He really die when He was crucified on the cross. I believe that when the bridegroom came back that was representing the come of Jesus(the rapture) and that is why I believe pre trib.

Now to put it all to gather

I believe it is saying that when we get saved we are given a lamp with oil(our Faith) in it, and while we are alive we have to keep our lamps burning until we die, and when we die with our lamps not burning. That means our faith has died so our fire is out, and if we die with our lamps burning. Then we died with solvation and our light go our because of death. We are no longer living as a light unto the world, but are awaiting the coming of the Lord. Then when Jesus comes back the resurrection happens and all the people with oil in there lamp light there lamps and go with Jesus to heaven for the wedding super, and all who's lamps went our while they were alive because the oil ran out, were not resurrected to go with Jesus to heaven, but they would all end up in hell. I know that it say that the people with out oil was asking for the people with oil to give them some oil, but I think that it is referring to the people that were alive on earth at the time of the resurrection, and that the ones that had no oil was wonting to go to but they couldn't because they let there light go out.
User avatar
LittleHamster
Valued Member
Posts: 481
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:00 am
Christian: Yes

Re: Eternal Security...

Post by LittleHamster »

I could easily say that the 5 Virgins who did not have enough oil in their lamps were never saved to begin with i.e., they had insufficient faith or a dead faith.

But I won't say it !
Has Liked: 1111 times
Been Liked: 1111 times
crochet1949
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1467
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist

Re: Eternal Security...

Post by crochet1949 »

To add a short comment -- The rapture of the church ( born-again believers) -- and I believe Scripture teaches a pre-trib rapture -- After the rapture of the church -- there will be a 7 yr period when the previously unbelieving Jews will have another opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah. The 144,000 sealed Jews will be amongst the people to witness specifically To the Jewish population. The only others who will have a chance of salvation are those who have Never heard or were too young to make their own decision to accept Christ before the rapture took place. Scripture says that there will be a great delusion come over every one else -- there will be explanations as to what 'happened' to all those people. And that those who Do accept Christ will do so in a much more serious society. The Holy Spirit will have gone along with the believers.
But the 7 yr tribulation period will be Specifically for the remaining Jews.
There are events taking place in heaven during those 7 years for the Bride of Christ -- marriage super of the Lamb for one thing.
So a problem with the Post-Trib rapture is the lack of time for That event and what would be to point of rapturing the Church Out just to have them come Back to earth to reign with Christ for the 1,000 yrs.

This has been an interesting discussion to follow.
User avatar
LittleHamster
Valued Member
Posts: 481
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:00 am
Christian: Yes

Re: Eternal Security...

Post by LittleHamster »

Has Liked: 1111 times
Been Liked: 1111 times
crochet1949
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1467
Joined: Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female
Creation Position: Young-Earth Creationist

Re: Eternal Security...

Post by crochet1949 »

As soon as a person accepts Jesus Christ as personal savior -- the Holy Spirit comes to indwell the person -- sealing their soul until they are safely with Christ for eternity. That is why a person is eternally secure.
User avatar
melanie
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1417
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 3:18 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female

Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

Post by melanie »

jpbg33 said
That is how we know we can be saved not how we know we are saved.

even sinners know all of that.

this is what John said

1Jhon 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

What John is referring to is the fact that God give Christians the power to overcome the world. This is something that is given to Christians only. Sinners do not have the power to overcome.

knowing that Jesus die on a cross is good but even sinners know that. So I could know that and still be a sinner, but a sinner can not live right only Christians can do that.

It is like this. If God gives you power to do something then you will esaly be able to do it. So if God give you the power to overcome the world and you don't then you can't really love God because you are not doing the easy things. I know that times can get hard but if we believe in God we can easily get through hard times.

look at the three Hebrew Children that were thrown into the fire. That had to be hard to do but they easily did it because they believed in God

look at Peter walking on the water that has got to be hard to do but as long as he had his eyes on Jesus he easily did it. It wasn't until he got his eye off Jesus that he started to sink

the same is true for us today as well the bible says if we walk after the spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. It isn't we might not it is we will not.


OSAS like to say we are not under the law any more but that is not exactly what the bible says. It is close but not exactly. What the bible say is Galatians
5:18 "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.". So according to the bible if we are not walking after the spirit we are under the law.


It really comes down to this if you are not overcoming then you are not believing and if you are not believe than you are not saved the bible says who so ever believeth in him. That is a present belief in God. everlasting life is for those that believe not for those that believed.
Romans 3:9-10

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one.

You make this distinction between sinners and Christians
I have a news flash for you;
WE ARE THE SINNERS
Along with everyone else.

What does the parable of the Pharisee and tax collector mean to you?
What do you think the message was?

9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Both these men were believers.
One cocky and self-righteous looking down at everyone for being sinful and the other pretty pitiful, a man struggling with sin.
It was the tax collector who found favour with God.

Why are you so concerned with the sin of others?
Should you not be more concerned with your own downfalls.
jpbg33
Senior Member
Posts: 608
Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male

Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

Post by jpbg33 »

if osas were true then why is the bible full of

An example

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If osas were true then this verse would not be in the bible.
User avatar
B. W.
Ultimate Member
Posts: 8355
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2005 8:17 am
Christian: Yes
Location: Colorado

Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

Post by B. W. »

jpbg33 wrote:if osas were true then why is the bible full of

An example

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If osas were true then this verse would not be in the bible.
Is the Lake of Fire inside the city or located on the outside?

Rev 20:14,15 happens when? Is Chapter 20 before chapters 21 and 22?
-
-
-
Science is man's invention - creation is God's
(by B. W. Melvin)

Old Polish Proverb:
Not my Circus....not my monkeys
User avatar
melanie
Esteemed Senior Member
Posts: 1417
Joined: Sat May 10, 2014 3:18 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Female

Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

Post by melanie »

i was not speaking of OSAS.
I was referring to self-righteousness.
I will ask you again
What does the parable of the Pharisee and tax collector mean to you?
What was the message?
User avatar
RickD
Make me a Sammich Member
Posts: 22063
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:59 am
Christian: Yes
Sex: Male
Creation Position: Day-Age
Location: Kitchen

Re: Eternal Security...(Revised May 2015)

Post by RickD »

B. W.,

Should we warn Mel about what she's getting herself into? Or, should we just let her find out for herself?
John 5:24
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.


“A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.”
-Edward R Murrow




St. Richard the Sarcastic--The Patron Saint of Irony
Post Reply