Evidence for theistic evolution

[Audie]

Rick: I still can't understand what's the issue with parasites, or any predatory animals. They are a necessary part of the earth's ecosystem. They were created for a reason. Animals killing other animals is a necessary part of certain animals' nature. Like when my cat plays with its prey before he kills it. Unless we are looking at the cat's methods as we would a human's, there's nothing wrong with it. It's a cat being a cat. Or a predatory wasp being what it was created to be. Each life is very efficient at what is supposed to do.

Precisely, Rick! Who do you supposed created predator/prey relationships, dependencies and designs to begin with? Let's not forget, that this naive way of thinking ANY aspect of killing - EVEN in the animal kingdom - must necessarily deny what God has ordained for earth's ecosystems.

If God viewed animal deaths as suffering and evil, would he have ordained the sacrificial system? Would he have described the smells coming from the sacrifices of Noah’s alter as being "a soothing aroma" (Genesis 8:20-21)?

- Would God have required a “regular burnt offering throughout your generations at the entrance of the tent of meeting?”

- Would God have REQUIRED His priests to violently slash the throats of generations of goats and lambs as sacrifices if He also viewed animal deaths to be sinful and evil? Does that make ANY sense?

- And, as a further indication that God viewed animal deaths as normal – even required – and enormously differently than He did human deaths, was His edict, in Genesis 9:6: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image. And so we see that God demands animal deaths as righteous acts but warn murderers that the great evil of their murderous acts were to cost them there very lives. See the difference?

Audie, "ALL good" as designed for its intended purposes - not all good as in some fairytale existence of puppy dog tails, flowers and perfect days. This earth was not designed to be good in the sense one might think, although there is much beauty and about it that is good. This world is designed to bring the maximum number of people into God's eternal Kingdom, and it is well designed and, yes, GOOD, for that!

You dont need to insult / belittle me with that puppy dog tail crap.

I understand bioolgy / ecosystems far better than you are likely to.

[RickD]

Rick: I still can't understand what's the issue with parasites, or any predatory animals. They are a necessary part of the earth's ecosystem. They were created for a reason. Animals killing other animals is a necessary part of certain animals' nature. Like when my cat plays with its prey before he kills it. Unless we are looking at the cat's methods as we would a human's, there's nothing wrong with it. It's a cat being a cat. Or a predatory wasp being what it was created to be. Each life is very efficient at what is supposed to do.

Precisely, Rick! Who do you supposed created predator/prey relationships, dependencies and designs to begin with? Let's not forget, that this naive way of thinking ANY aspect of killing - EVEN in the animal kingdom - must necessarily deny what God has ordained for earth's ecosystems.

If God viewed animal deaths as suffering and evil, would he have ordained the sacrificial system? Would he have described the smells coming from the sacrifices of Noah’s alter as being "a soothing aroma" (Genesis 8:20-21)?

- Would God have required a “regular burnt offering throughout your generations at the entrance of the tent of meeting?”

- Would God have REQUIRED His priests to violently slash the throats of generations of goats and lambs as sacrifices if He also viewed animal deaths to be sinful and evil? Does that make ANY sense?

- And, as a further indication that God viewed animal deaths as normal – even required – and enormously differently than He did human deaths, was His edict, in Genesis 9:6: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image. And so we see that God demands animal deaths as righteous acts but warn murderers that the great evil of their murderous acts were to cost them there very lives. See the difference?

Audie, "ALL good" as designed for its intended purposes - not all good as in some fairytale existence of puppy dog tails, flowers and perfect days. This earth was not designed to be good in the sense one might think, although there is much beauty and about it that is good. This world is designed to bring the maximum number of people into God's eternal Kingdom, and it is well designed and, yes, GOOD, for that!

You dont need to insult / belittle me with that puppy dog tail crap.

I understand bioolgy / ecosystems far better than you are likely to.

Audie,
It wasn't a slight on your understanding of biology. It's your understanding of scripture that Philip was referring to.

[Audie]

Rick: I still can't understand what's the issue with parasites, or any predatory animals. They are a necessary part of the earth's ecosystem. They were created for a reason. Animals killing other animals is a necessary part of certain animals' nature. Like when my cat plays with its prey before he kills it. Unless we are looking at the cat's methods as we would a human's, there's nothing wrong with it. It's a cat being a cat. Or a predatory wasp being what it was created to be. Each life is very efficient at what is supposed to do.

Precisely, Rick! Who do you supposed created predator/prey relationships, dependencies and designs to begin with? Let's not forget, that this naive way of thinking ANY aspect of killing - EVEN in the animal kingdom - must necessarily deny what God has ordained for earth's ecosystems.

If God viewed animal deaths as suffering and evil, would he have ordained the sacrificial system? Would he have described the smells coming from the sacrifices of Noah’s alter as being "a soothing aroma" (Genesis 8:20-21)?

- Would God have required a “regular burnt offering throughout your generations at the entrance of the tent of meeting?”

- Would God have REQUIRED His priests to violently slash the throats of generations of goats and lambs as sacrifices if He also viewed animal deaths to be sinful and evil? Does that make ANY sense?

- And, as a further indication that God viewed animal deaths as normal – even required – and enormously differently than He did human deaths, was His edict, in Genesis 9:6: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image. And so we see that God demands animal deaths as righteous acts but warn murderers that the great evil of their murderous acts were to cost them there very lives. See the difference?

Audie, "ALL good" as designed for its intended purposes - not all good as in some fairytale existence of puppy dog tails, flowers and perfect days. This earth was not designed to be good in the sense one might think, although there is much beauty and about it that is good. This world is designed to bring the maximum number of people into God's eternal Kingdom, and it is well designed and, yes, GOOD, for that!

You dont need to insult / belittle me with that puppy dog tail crap.

I understand bioolgy / ecosystems far better than you are likely to.

Audie,
It wasn't a slight on your understanding of biology. It's your understanding of scripture that Philip was referring to.

I understand scrip a lot better than that too. The belittling is there regardless.

[RickD]

Rick: I still can't understand what's the issue with parasites, or any predatory animals. They are a necessary part of the earth's ecosystem. They were created for a reason. Animals killing other animals is a necessary part of certain animals' nature. Like when my cat plays with its prey before he kills it. Unless we are looking at the cat's methods as we would a human's, there's nothing wrong with it. It's a cat being a cat. Or a predatory wasp being what it was created to be. Each life is very efficient at what is supposed to do.

Precisely, Rick! Who do you supposed created predator/prey relationships, dependencies and designs to begin with? Let's not forget, that this naive way of thinking ANY aspect of killing - EVEN in the animal kingdom - must necessarily deny what God has ordained for earth's ecosystems.

If God viewed animal deaths as suffering and evil, would he have ordained the sacrificial system? Would he have described the smells coming from the sacrifices of Noah’s alter as being "a soothing aroma" (Genesis 8:20-21)?

- Would God have required a “regular burnt offering throughout your generations at the entrance of the tent of meeting?”

- Would God have REQUIRED His priests to violently slash the throats of generations of goats and lambs as sacrifices if He also viewed animal deaths to be sinful and evil? Does that make ANY sense?

- And, as a further indication that God viewed animal deaths as normal – even required – and enormously differently than He did human deaths, was His edict, in Genesis 9:6: “Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image. And so we see that God demands animal deaths as righteous acts but warn murderers that the great evil of their murderous acts were to cost them there very lives. See the difference?

Audie, "ALL good" as designed for its intended purposes - not all good as in some fairytale existence of puppy dog tails, flowers and perfect days. This earth was not designed to be good in the sense one might think, although there is much beauty and about it that is good. This world is designed to bring the maximum number of people into God's eternal Kingdom, and it is well designed and, yes, GOOD, for that!

You dont need to insult / belittle me with that puppy dog tail crap.

I understand bioolgy / ecosystems far better than you are likely to.

Audie,
It wasn't a slight on your understanding of biology. It's your understanding of scripture that Philip was referring to.

I understand scrip a lot better than that too. The belittling is there regardless.

You misunderstand "good" in the context we are discussing. And please don't read a belittling tone into something that's not there. It's not a personal insult whenever someone points out one of your mistakes. It's merely a criticism of what you wrote.

[Audie]

Observe what I got for what was merely a criticism of the claim that a supernatural entitiy is required to account for the human mind.

as for this topic..
I didnt misunderstand it. I've my own take on it. I, like ol Nick, have read the bible.

Its one thing to point out what someone sees as a mistake. I didnt make a mistake, I was overinterpted

its another to dress it up like all good as in some fairytale existence of puppy dog tails, flowers and perfect days. That has the air of speaking to a child.

but if there was no intent to belittle, fine.

[Philip]

You misunderstand "good" in the context we are discussing. And please don't read a belittling tone into something that's not there. It's not a personal insult whenever someone points out one of your mistakes. It's merely a criticism of what you wrote.

Audie, it wasn't meant as a criticism, but as to point out a universally agreed upon Bible-taught truth. I don't think you would have made the sarcastic statement you did (" if you had filaria or guinea worm you'd wonder what god meant when he was done and pronounced it all to be "good") if you truly understood that truth. This is the very same mistake I've seen some YECs make, as they insinuate God's initial declaring of what was then "good" means that there was no death before The Fall in the Garden, because that would entail violence and the tearing of flesh - which they often equate with evil, even if only in the animal kingdom.

THIS world was planned with strife and bloodshed anticipated/foreKNOWN and allowed, yet with a FAR greater purpose. Without it's challenges, dangers and fears, many would not sense their need of God. And it's not that God necessarily causes such things - for instance, Scripture teaches that God cannot cause sin - but He allowed this world's present and past difficulties for a GREATER good of which the fruit will be born out in the eternity of all Believers. Audie, while I am often tough on you - especially whenever you assert things I see as inconsistent or questionable - I am NOT, however, out to get or to be unfair to you. As you are NOT the enemy. I know a enormous amount about the necessary interdependence of species, ecosystems and habitats of animals, how they impact one another, independently and collectively. By the time you were a mere FIVE years old, I'd already spent over 12 years working in a major U.S. zoological institution, and my biologist wife, much longer.

But my point really was that while the Bible teaches that while we are to seek it and encourage it wherever and whenever possible, peace is not meant for THIS world, but for the world to come. However, THIS world is a training and learning ground that has EVERYTHING to do with our eternal destinies. It's understandable that you might not realize what God considers "good," as His definition includes whatever is perfectly designed for His eternal purposes. He's prolifically communicated to us of the horrors, dangers and corruption of the present world - which, by the way the human-inflicted aspects had not yet begun when He declared His Creation to be "good."

[Audie]

You misunderstand "good" in the context we are discussing. And please don't read a belittling tone into something that's not there. It's not a personal insult whenever someone points out one of your mistakes. It's merely a criticism of what you wrote.

Audie, it wasn't meant as a criticism, but as to point out a universally agreed upon Bible-taught truth. I don't think you would have made the sarcastic statement you did (" if you had filaria or guinea worm you'd wonder what god meant when he was done and pronounced it all to be "good") if you truly understood that truth. This is the very same mistake I've seen some YECs make[/b], as they insinuate God's initial declaring of what was then "good" means that there was no death before The Fall in the Garden, because that would entail violence and the tearing of flesh - which they often equate with evil, even if only in the animal kingdom.

THIS world was planned with strife and bloodshed anticipated/foreKNOWN and allowed, yet with a FAR greater purpose. Without it's challenges, dangers and fears, many would not sense their need of God. And it's not that God necessarily causes such things - for instance, Scripture teaches that God cannot cause sin - but He allowed this world's present and past difficulties for a GREATER good of which the fruit will be born out in the eternity of all Believers. Audie, while I am often tough on you - especially whenever you assert things I see as inconsistent or questionable - I am NOT, however, out to get or to be unfair to you. As you are NOT the enemy. I know a enormous amount about the necessary interdependence of species, ecosystems and habitats of animals, how they impact one another, independently and collectively. By the time you were a mere FIVE years old, I'd already spent over 12 years working in a major U.S. zoological institution, and my biologist wife, much longer.

But my point really was that while the Bible teaches that while we are to seek it and encourage it wherever and whenever possible, peace is not meant for THIS world, but for the world to come. However, THIS world is a training and learning ground that has EVERYTHING to do with our eternal destinies. It's understandable that you might not realize what God considers "good," as His definition includes whatever is perfectly designed for His eternal purposes. He's prolifically communicated to us of the horrors, dangers and corruption of the present world - which, by the way the human-inflicted aspects had not yet begun when He declared His Creation to be "good."

Well phil, actually I am familiar with the ideas you put forth. As in Nick knows scrip.

I retract my claim to know more about ecology etc. We can arm wrestle for that.

I dont agree with any of your take on god being involved, but, we wont go into that.

The aprts in bold above seem inconsistent? Please explain.

[Philip]

Audie: "The aprts in bold above seem inconsistent? Please explain."

Audie, I'm not sure what you're asking here. But I think it has to do with the fact that many unbelievers point out the "inefficiences," strife and violence within the world God declared "good." But that has already been explained, per the created world's purposes. But what you may not know is that many YECs don't believe there was even animal deaths before the fall of Adam and Eve, as some of them assert that is when sin corrupted them AND the animal world, and THEN death and predator-prey relationships developed, bringing the shedding of blood into the world. Many YECs cannot accept ANY death or violence in God's pristinely created World, pre-Fall/pre-sin. Does that help?

[abelcainsbrother]

It was asked earlier what it means when it tells us in Genesis that God made the life in this world "after his kind" or "after their kind" it is believed by gap theorists that it is God making life in this world after the kind of life that was in the former world that perished.It is pointing to life in the former world and I believe in this context it makes the most sense.

It is also like the KJV translators using the word replenish when God is telling Adam and Eve to replenish the earth while also using the same world replenish for Noah after Noah's flood,it points to a former world.But something tells me most will trust modern bible scholars over past bible scholars,but know this even if you disagree with the word replenish and prefer fill instead, the KJV translators used replenish for a reason and if you use the word fill instead of replenish it makes it harder for you to see what the bible scholars of the past believed and you'll overlook it.

[Audie]

Audie: "The aprts in bold above seem inconsistent? Please explain."

Audie, I'm not sure what you're asking here. But I think it has to do with the fact that many unbelievers point out the "inefficiences," strife and violence within the world God declared "good." But that has already been explained, per the created world's purposes. But what you may not know is that many YECs don't believe there was even animal deaths before the fall of Adam and Eve, as some of them assert that is when sin corrupted them AND the animal world, and THEN death and predator-prey relationships developed, bringing the shedding of blood into the world. Many YECs cannot accept ANY death or violence in God's pristinely created World, pre-Fall/pre-sin. Does that help?

you speak of universally accepted truths, then say the yecs get it wrong.

As for me, I am not "many non believers' but perhaps you thought like, oh oh here comes another one.

Some of the horrendous diseases to which people are subject does tho, I think legitimately lead one to think "his" idea of "good" included a lot of things he would not want for himself.

Of course, I also know that people seek to reconcile this with a loving benevolent god by saying its our fault.

I know about the yec thing of all the little animals being happy together in a death free world, before "sin" and how to that state all will return.

As for me, I recognize that things are as they are, nobody planned it, nobody is in charge.

[PaulSacramento]

PaulS wrote:
Bibby, While Genesis says that God created animals after their own kind, what does that mean? and of course it also states that the earth is what brought forth life.
My issue with Intelligent design and the view that God created ALL life AS IS is two fold:
It does not account for the evidence we have of change.
It suggest that life forms like parasites and such, were created AS IS by God, that some of the most cruel and horrific methods of reproduction in the animal world were created AS IS by God.

You can see the issue there.

1) Intelligent design doesn't necessitate that life as it is, was the way it was created. ID has no problem with life changing.

2) You've mentioned this more than once, about parasites. I still can't understand what's the issue with parasites, or any predatory animals. They are a necessary part of the earth's ecosystem. They were created for a reason. Animals killing other animals is a necessary part of certain animals' nature. Like when my cat plays with its prey before he kills it. Unless we are looking at the cat's methods as we would a human's, there's nothing wrong with it. It's a cat being a cat. Or a predatory wasp being what it was created to be. Each life is very efficient at what is supposed to do.

Parasites are simply an example that is used by skeptics to show that IF God created life as IS, then He created parasites also AS IS an not just symbiotic parasites BUT also ones like the parastic wasp or the "mind control parasites" that can infest snails.

This isn't a right or wrong thing or even a good or bad thing as some TRY to make it.
It is however a valid question to be asked and answered:

If God created all life AS IS, then why would God create a living organism that is cruel by every definition? why would God create an animal AS IS from the first moment of its creation that eats it's pray from the INSIDE while its prey is still ALIVE and keeps it ALIVE as long as possible?

Simply stating that God makes every life as efficient as what it is suppose to do would suggest that God created some life to be PURPOSELY cruel, that in His DIRECT creative process He MADE it purposely cruel.

You can see how some can have a valid issue with that.

[Storyteller]

Audie: "The aprts in bold above seem inconsistent? Please explain."

Audie, I'm not sure what you're asking here. But I think it has to do with the fact that many unbelievers point out the "inefficiences," strife and violence within the world God declared "good." But that has already been explained, per the created world's purposes. But what you may not know is that many YECs don't believe there was even animal deaths before the fall of Adam and Eve, as some of them assert that is when sin corrupted them AND the animal world, and THEN death and predator-prey relationships developed, bringing the shedding of blood into the world. Many YECs cannot accept ANY death or violence in God's pristinely created World, pre-Fall/pre-sin. Does that help?[/quote

As for me, I am not "many non believers' but perhaps you thought like, oh oh here comes another one.

Some of the horrendous diseases to which people are subject does tho, I think legitimately lead one to think "his" idea of "good" included a lot of things he would not want for himself.

You are certainly not"many non believers, you are someone we have come to love and care about.

Things He did not want for Himself..... He died for us, you think he wanted to do that?

Audie.... what if it is true? Why is it so hard to accept that something so beautiful could be true?

[Storyteller]

PaulS wrote:
Bibby, While Genesis says that God created animals after their own kind, what does that mean? and of course it also states that the earth is what brought forth life.
My issue with Intelligent design and the view that God created ALL life AS IS is two fold:
It does not account for the evidence we have of change.
It suggest that life forms like parasites and such, were created AS IS by God, that some of the most cruel and horrific methods of reproduction in the animal world were created AS IS by God.

You can see the issue there.

1) Intelligent design doesn't necessitate that life as it is, was the way it was created. ID has no problem with life changing.

2) You've mentioned this more than once, about parasites. I still can't understand what's the issue with parasites, or any predatory animals. They are a necessary part of the earth's ecosystem. They were created for a reason. Animals killing other animals is a necessary part of certain animals' nature. Like when my cat plays with its prey before he kills it. Unless we are looking at the cat's methods as we would a human's, there's nothing wrong with it. It's a cat being a cat. Or a predatory wasp being what it was created to be. Each life is very efficient at what is supposed to do.

Parasites are simply an example that is used by skeptics to show that IF God created life as IS, then He created parasites also AS IS an not just symbiotic parasites BUT also ones like the parastic wasp or the "mind control parasites" that can infest snails.

This isn't a right or wrong thing or even a good or bad thing as some TRY to make it.
It is however a valid question to be asked and answered:

If God created all life AS IS, then why would God create a living organism that is cruel by every definition? why would God create an animal AS IS from the first moment of its creation that eats it's pray from the INSIDE while its prey is still ALIVE and keeps it ALIVE as long as possible?

Simply stating that God makes every life as efficient as what it is suppose to do would suggest that God created some life to be PURPOSELY cruel, that in His DIRECT creative process He MADE it purposely cruel.

You can see how some can have a valid issue with that.

Depends how you define cruel.
If these parasites were designed that way, why is it cruel, especially if it is the best method for their survival. They are doing what they are designed to do, unlike people who do things that are cruel that we are not designed to do.

[Audie]

PaulS wrote:
Bibby, While Genesis says that God created animals after their own kind, what does that mean? and of course it also states that the earth is what brought forth life.
My issue with Intelligent design and the view that God created ALL life AS IS is two fold:
It does not account for the evidence we have of change.
It suggest that life forms like parasites and such, were created AS IS by God, that some of the most cruel and horrific methods of reproduction in the animal world were created AS IS by God.

You can see the issue there.

1) Intelligent design doesn't necessitate that life as it is, was the way it was created. ID has no problem with life changing.

2) You've mentioned this more than once, about parasites. I still can't understand what's the issue with parasites, or any predatory animals. They are a necessary part of the earth's ecosystem. They were created for a reason. Animals killing other animals is a necessary part of certain animals' nature. Like when my cat plays with its prey before he kills it. Unless we are looking at the cat's methods as we would a human's, there's nothing wrong with it. It's a cat being a cat. Or a predatory wasp being what it was created to be. Each life is very efficient at what is supposed to do.

Parasites are simply an example that is used by skeptics to show that IF God created life as IS, then He created parasites also AS IS an not just symbiotic parasites BUT also ones like the parastic wasp or the "mind control parasites" that can infest snails.

This isn't a right or wrong thing or even a good or bad thing as some TRY to make it.
It is however a valid question to be asked and answered:

If God created all life AS IS, then why would God create a living organism that is cruel by every definition? why would God create an animal AS IS from the first moment of its creation that eats it's pray from the INSIDE while its prey is still ALIVE and keeps it ALIVE as long as possible?

Simply stating that God makes every life as efficient as what it is suppose to do would suggest that God created some life to be PURPOSELY cruel, that in His DIRECT creative process He MADE it purposely cruel.

You can see how some can have a valid issue with that.

Why not speak to / of people actually present rather than some dimbulb out there somewhere, who may exist.

[Audie]

Audie: "The aprts in bold above seem inconsistent? Please explain."

Audie, I'm not sure what you're asking here. But I think it has to do with the fact that many unbelievers point out the "inefficiences," strife and violence within the world God declared "good." But that has already been explained, per the created world's purposes. But what you may not know is that many YECs don't believe there was even animal deaths before the fall of Adam and Eve, as some of them assert that is when sin corrupted them AND the animal world, and THEN death and predator-prey relationships developed, bringing the shedding of blood into the world. Many YECs cannot accept ANY death or violence in God's pristinely created World, pre-Fall/pre-sin. Does that help?[/quote

As for me, I am not "many non believers' but perhaps you thought like, oh oh here comes another one.

Some of the horrendous diseases to which people are subject does tho, I think legitimately lead one to think "his" idea of "good" included a lot of things he would not want for himself.

You are certainly not"many non believers, you are someone we have come to love and care about.

Things He did not want for Himself..... He died for us, you think he wanted to do that?

Audie.... what if it is true? Why is it so hard to accept that something so beautiful could be true?

Things of beauty and horror are both real and true. I dont find the OT god to be remotely beautiful. But that isnt why I dont believe in it.

An ugly death, btw, that took at most a few hours, is getting off mighty easy compared\ to what people by the thousand and million endure ever day. Im not impressed.

Who among us would not step forward to accept that fate to save their child from it?

The who thing of "I will torture myself to death, to pay myself for someone elses debt to me that they only owe because I decided that they do." is too inside out bonkers for me.