A question on Ephesians

[HappyFlappyTheist]

What does Ephesians 4:11-12 mean? A mormon assured me this is proof of their church with apostles and prophets. Therefore all you heretics should be mormon.

For the curious: I told him "I don't care, that verse means nothing to me because I'm not a Christian; Let's get back on topic talking about cursed black people."

[EssentialSacrifice]

Happy, I always thought that was a way of saying to each his own... we are all given some talent, be it those stated in Ephesians or some other that will bolster the faith of our brothers and sisters in Christ and all others within ear shot, and in so doing ( while ) building up the body ( Roman 12:5 )of Christ numerically and spiritually.

For the curious: I told him "I don't care, that verse means nothing to me because I'm not a Christian; Let's get back on topic talking about cursed black people."

Thanks for that Happy, I nearly had to change my drawers i laughed so hard. "How to make friends and influence people" came right to mind

[HappyFlappyTheist]

Happy, I always thought that was a way of saying to each his own... we are all given some talent, be it those stated in Ephesians or some other that will bolster the faith of our brothers and sisters in Christ and all others within ear shot, and in so doing ( while ) building up the body ( Roman 12:5 )of Christ numerically and spiritually.

So in Catholicism ( I'm making the -possibly incorrect- assumption you're catholic based on your avatar that looks like the Eucharist) you accept the concept of Prophets being among us today? With my vague and uneducated understanding of Christianity, I understand the prophets in the bible to exist in the old testament only to prelude and prophesy the coming of Christ. What purpose do modern christians have for prophets?
Also, what's this business with apostles mormons make such a big deal about?

This mormon missionary was not a very good one, It was all mormon theology and no historical proof or explanation of blatant absurdities in their text.He seriously refused to explain anything relating to any of my doubts.

Mormon Whammy quotes for your amusement.

"Well you see, you're in this circle here, you need to get in this circle, get baptized then you can venture out of your faith circle and blend it with your doubt circle."
"Put you doubts on a shelf, get baptized in the Church, then you can explore your doubts."- So pretty much the Nanci Pelosi defense ( "we need to pass it to see what's in it")
"Well, you're just like doubting Thomas, you don't believe because there's no evidence."

[EssentialSacrifice]

So in Catholicism ( I'm making the -possibly incorrect- assumption you're catholic based on your avatar that looks like the Eucharist)

Really good Hap, it's a reproduced photo of mine of the Monstrance, the holding place of the Eucharist... are you ex or just well versed ?


With my vague and uneducated understanding of Christianity, I understand the prophets in the bible to exist in the old testament only to prelude and prophesy the coming of Christ.
I really am not the one you should go to for indepth knowledge here. I do know the prophets certainly had much to say about the coming Messiah, but i also know many prophesied about their current times as well, so no I would have to disagree that all they were prophesying was in regards only to the coming Messiah.

What purpose do modern Christians have for prophets?

Again, I can only speak for myself, but as I understand it two prophets of the OT will be coming back to prophesy in the end times. I'm not much for all that as I absolutely would not deny this possibility, but I would far rather think ahead on my faith and not worry about such possible future world interpersonal prophecy. I do however have many instances of (prophecy ?) relating to Marian apparitions like La Salette, Fatima, Lourdes,Guadaloupe and some 4 or 5 more. These are not necessarily prophetic in nature ( by a singular human prophet ) as much as they are Marian apparitions that for all in tense and purposes secure the same prophetic nature by whatever the individual apparition has to say. They do differ in stylized content, but remain very constant in: all roads lead to God ... get on board.

Also, what's this business with apostles mormons make such a big deal about? no, really, thanks for asking, I'll take door #3 Monte as I haven't a clue here.

[HappyFlappyTheist]

Really good Hap, it's a reproduced photo of mine of the Monstrance, the holding place of the Eucharist... are you ex or just well versed ?

I'm still "culturally catholic" ( whatever that means), I go to adoration because it's a relaxing place to study, I still go to mass because I like the mass , and I still-granted infrequently- go to confession ( minus absolution) because it's very 'empowering' in a sense. My testimony is on the "questioning deism" thread if you're curious in regards to my catholicism.

I do know the prophets certainly had much to say about the coming Messiah, but i also know many prophesied about their current times as well, so no I would have to disagree that all they were prophesying was in regards only to the coming Messiah.

But is it erroneous to state their MAIN purpose was to foretell the coming of the messiah?

Forgive my simple mind, but were you taking the position prophets may exist in post-christ times to prophesy the end-times? Wasn't this the purpose of the book of revelation?

[Byblos]

Forgive my simple mind, but were you taking the position prophets may exist in post-christ times to prophesy the end-times? Wasn't this the purpose of the book of revelation?

Revelation foretells the end times. All new prophecy has ceased after Christ.

[Jac3510]

But is it erroneous to state their MAIN purpose was to foretell the coming of the messiah?

I would say that, yes, that is erroneous. Their main purpose was to speak to the people of God in their own day in their own situation about what God would have them to do. Revelation of future events, even of the coming of the Messiah, was not given for its own sake, but to lead the people themselves--the recipients of the message--to righteousness. As such, it's often said (at least in my theological circles) that the prophets were forthtellers long before they were foretellers.

And I am with Byblos on the role of prophets today.

[HappyFlappyTheist]

I would say that, yes, that is erroneous. Their main purpose was to speak to the people of God in their own day in their own situation about what God would have them to do. Revelation of future events, even of the coming of the Messiah, was not given for its own sake, but to lead the people themselves--the recipients of the message--to righteousness. As such, it's often said (at least in my theological circles) that the prophets were forthtellers long before they were foretellers.

Now I know.

And I am with Byblos on the role of prophets today.

The role of prophets today being that they don't exist?

[Byblos]

And I am with Byblos on the role of prophets today.

The role of prophets today being that they don't exist?

If they exist they are false prophets.

[HappyFlappyTheist]

And I am with Byblos on the role of prophets today.

The role of prophets today being that they don't exist?

If they exist they are false prophets.

Which brings me back to my question of Ephesians 4:11-12. They're (they being mormons) stating Christ gave the Ephesians apostles ( which nobody has clarified what the mormons are talking about in this respect) and prophets; Further because Christ gave the Ephesians prophets and apostles to help them along their journey, they are also necessary for us in our walk with Christ ( i'm just summarizing what they said), and the mormon church being the only one having apostles and prophets makes it the true church. Phew, that was a lot.

[EssentialSacrifice]

Forgive my simple mind, but were you taking the position prophets may exist in post-Christ times to prophesy the end-times?

No, Hap, not at all, hence the (prophecy ?) I don't think you can include Marian apparitions to prophecy because they are not from prophets, but, do have similar end game criteria as messages from God (through Mary) that establish and/or wish to establish an eternal connection to existing mankind today with some message concerning immediate or future times in mans' destiny .

[HappyFlappyTheist]

Forgive my simple mind, but were you taking the position prophets may exist in post-Christ times to prophesy the end-times?

No, Hap, not at all, hence the (prophecy ?) I don't think you can include Marian apparitions to prophecy because they are not from prophets, but, do have similar end game criteria as messages from God (through Mary) that establish and/or wish to establish an eternal connection to existing mankind today with some message concerning immediate or future times in mans' destiny .

Understood

[EssentialSacrifice]

Which brings me back to my question of Ephesians 4:11-12. They're (they being mormons) stating Christ gave the Ephesians apostles ( which nobody has clarified what the mormons are talking about in this respect) and prophets; Further because Christ gave the Ephesians prophets and apostles to help them along their journey, they are also necessary for us in our walk with Christ ( i'm just summarizing what they said), and the mormon church being the only one having apostles and prophets makes it the true church. Phew, that was a lot

Hap, when I go back and read Ephesians 1 thru the 12 it seems to me that although the conversation being had was to the Ephesians,it was inclusive of all Christians' present and future in regards to "gifts". Perhaps byblos or jac can return and help clarify, they really are the big boys on the block in this regard.

If I am right though and the talk is about all Christians' gifts and use thereof, i think this puts the kabosh on the Mormom prophet thing...

or, I could be my own grave with translation.

[Jac3510]

Hap,the apostles and prophets were given. They are given no more. They established the foundation of the church. That foundation has been laid, so we have no need of them anymore. Again, the canon is closed. There is no more revelation. Anyone claiming to be a prophet today is a false prophet. I think there are still evangelists, and I take (for Greek reasons I won't bore you with) that the pastors and teachers refer to the same office. I would render that, "pastors who teach."

So I think the text is fairly clear. God gave the church certain offices to establish it: apostles and prophets, who laid the foundation, and evangelists and pastor-teachers who continue the work of building and building on the church today. How that proves Mormonism is beyond me.

[HappyFlappyTheist]

Hap,the apostles and prophets were given. They are given no more. They established the foundation of the church. That foundation has been laid, so we have no need of them anymore. Again, the canon is closed. There is no more revelation. Anyone claiming to be a prophet today is a false prophet. I think there are still evangelists, and I take (for Greek reasons I won't bore you with) that the pastors and teachers refer to the same office. I would render that, "pastors who teach."

So I think the text is fairly clear. God gave the church certain offices to establish it: apostles and prophets, who laid the foundation, and evangelists and pastor-teachers who continue the work of building and building on the church today. How that proves Mormonism is beyond me.

Why were prophets needed to establish the foundation? What exactly did they do?

Still, what the heck is an apostle? I got grilled by mormon elder fellow when I said peter was an apostle -"oh no no no he was a disciple"---