What is faith to you?

[HappyFlappyTheist]

I believe faith is a rationally supported trust and that without evidence, faith is blind and not true faith. Call me a doubting Thomas as the Mormons do, but I cannot have trust in something that gives no logical reason to believe / have trust (I.E evidence). For me to ever have faith in a theistic being, it would first be rationalized through examination and skepticism of evidence supporting such. Is this a weak foundation? Should a foundation of one's faith be otherwise? I view it is possible to come to a particular religion through pure rationalization along with "revelation." Obviously many people disagree with and I'm curious why.

I've heard from some of the evangelicals floating around (Virginia) that placing too much weight on evidence is damaging to faith and is not a strong foundation; those who know me here can assume I don't buy into this (insofar as theism, as there's no evidence in deism for me to question aside from complexity of 'design'). Shouldn't your Christian faith be full of questioning? Does that make your faith stronger? If Christianity is the true religion, wouldn't it make sense to state that all evidence points to it's truth? If this is true, how could evidence damage faith?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

I believe faith is a rationally supported trust and that without evidence, faith is blind and not true faith.

I understand. The problem is that the only proof a person will get will come after a blind leap. It's like parachuting: the first time you jump on your own, you must have faith that everything will go as planned. Most people stay on the ground because they don't want to risk wetting their pants.

I know what I'm talking about: I was an atheist until middle age. A real, die-hard atheist, not like the sissy types who come here to post.

FL

[RickD]

HFD,

You sure you're not a believer?

You understand biblical faith better than many Christians I know!

I agree with you that biblical faith is a kind of trust.

This article from Jac's webpage explains biblical faith. It's a really good read. Biblical faith most definitely IS NOT a blind faith.

[LittleHamster]

I mentioned this little analogy in some other thread,

My own Children become lost. I tell them (through some writings), that I am their true father and even appear to them and show them the way the truth and the life. Some children:

(i) Accept it on faith as being true and continue on through life completely satisfied and even get some evidence along the way.
(ii) Can't accept it on faith, think its a load of baloney, but still cry out and ask for evidence. I give them all the evidence they need ("ask and you shall receive") and then they become faithful.
(iii) Don't accept it at all.

Some people have told me that they needed faith first, then they got the evidence. So (i) happens.
I personally got all the evidence I needed without having any faith, now I have faith. So (ii) also happens.
Unfortunately, (iii) also happens all too often.

[EssentialSacrifice]

but I cannot have trust in something that gives no logical reason to believe / have trust (I.E evidence)

Hap, what is evidence to you ? What do you need ?


I view it is possible to come to a particular religion through pure rationalization along with "revelation."

How does this come in to play in your grand scheme of faith ? How does rationalization and revelation compare in your balance of the two in faith ?


Shouldn't your Christian faith be full of questioning? In my world, it cannot live without it. Can't hardly feel alive without constantly being on my toes.

Does that make your faith stronger? Every minute of every day, but I am in a position of already attained faith through rational thought and revelation.

If Christianity is the true religion, wouldn't it make sense to state that all evidence points to it's Truth? The Truth points all evidence to the true religion. It makes sense to a true Christian.

If this is true, how could evidence damage faith? Hap, there is no evidence that can damage faith in the Truth.

These questions or statements of unbelief or reasons for unbelief are answerable with the right adjustments to your selfless ego. If you can let go, trust your instincts, which I really do feel you possess, that selfless you will see the Truth of it, your soul will magnify the Lord. But you have to let go.... inner decisions of spirit and strength depend on the individual's desire to "realize the knowledge of God". In my case, it took 37 years to come to grips with the decision. Cliffhanger scary, but, as I have found ever since....the Truth will out, with or without physical proof but substantially more with inner intellectual grace from Him.

[HappyFlappyTheist]

@essentialsacrafice

When I say "evidence or proof" what I'm referring to is physical evidence.
The bible claims Christ rose from the dead, therefore I expect to see some sort of historical testimony from one of the 500 he appeared in front of.
The bible claims Jericho was a real city, therefore I should expect to find a city matching the description and geography of Jericho.
The bible claims Sodom and Gomorrah were real cities burned to the ground, there I expect to find twin cities along the -euphrates?- river that were destroyed by fire.

You get the gist.

Let's take this scenario. (mainly because of it's necessity to be a christian)
-The bible claims christ rose from the dead, there is no evidence for it; absolutely 0 historical records support the resurrection.
Most of the past validity of this religion has been lost with this and it drops significantly on my "I should investigate" chart and there's very little chance I'll delve deeper into the possibilities of conversion.

To clarify, when I say "evidence" I do not expect the risen christ to appear to me and ask me to touch the holes in his hand.

annnnnd disclaimer- my scenario is not a real one, nor are any of the one's listed above. They're actually all things with pretty good evidence.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

You get the gist.

I get the gist. There are eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life after crucifixion but a non-believer won't accept them. Biblical Jericho has been excavated in part but a non-believer will see nothing there. The general area of Sodom & Gomorrah has been tentatively identified but a non-believer will not accept the evidence presented. I could go on but I'm sure you get the idea: whatever evidence is offered, you will doubt it.

The problem isn't with the evidence, the problem is with you. You don't want to see, so any evidence presented will always come up short. Been there, done that...

FL

[HappyFlappyTheist]

You get the gist.

I get the gist. There are eyewitness accounts of Jesus' life after crucifixion but a non-believer won't accept them. Biblical Jericho has been excavated in part but a non-believer will see nothing there. The general area of Sodom & Gomorrah has been tentatively identified but a non-believer will not accept the evidence presented. I could go on but I'm sure you get the idea: whatever evidence is offered, you will doubt it.

The problem isn't with the evidence, the problem is with you. You don't want to see, so any evidence presented will always come up short. Been there, done that...

FL

somebody missed the disclaimer

my scenario is not a real one, nor are any of the one's listed above. They're actually all things with pretty good evidence.

Whatever evidence is offered, you will doubt it.
If by doubt you mean not accept, then you haven't read through many of my other conversations.

I noticed your favorite animal was eel, I ate eel in my sushi today; how does that feel?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

If by doubt you mean not accept, then you haven't read through many of my other conversations.

You're right, I haven't read most of your other posts. I still doubt you'll accept any evidence presented, though. For the archaeological stuff, read Biblical Archaeology Review magazine. (Don't worry, it isn't a Christian publication.)

I noticed your favorite animal was eel, I ate eel in my sushi today; how does that feel?

ASSASSIN!

FL

[HappyFlappyTheist]

You're right, I haven't read most of your other posts. I still doubt you'll accept any evidence presented, though.

What's with the cynicism? I do have an open mind, it is possible I assure thee

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

You're right, I haven't read most of your other posts. I still doubt you'll accept any evidence presented, though.

What's with the cynicism? I do have an open mind, it is possible I assure thee

This has nothing to do with your receptivity to evidence. The Bible clearly states that the understanding of unbelievers is veiled. Understanding/acceptance is given by the Holy Spirit, you don't get it on your own. The evidence will stare at you in the face but you'll never accept it until you accept Jesus as Lord.

Been there, done that.

FL

[HappyFlappyTheist]

understanding of unbelievers is veiled. Understanding/acceptance is given by the Holy Spirit, you don't get it on your own. The evidence will stare at you in the face but you'll never accept it until you accept Jesus as Lord.

You sound just like a mormon missionary.

[EssentialSacrifice]

When I say "evidence or proof" what I'm referring to is physical evidence.

Hap, what is evidence to you ? What do you need ?... so again I ask, what evidence is it you need ... I know it's physical, but what would it take ?


annnnnd disclaimer- my scenario is not a real one, nor are any of the one's listed above. They're actually all things with pretty good evidence.

man am I glad you said this ... most all of your examples are pretty well established ... to at least an arguable degree .. but that's not necessary ...

The truth is Hap, what old Lazarus said is the truth ...

This has nothing to do with your receptivity to evidence. The Bible clearly states that the understanding of unbelievers is veiled. Understanding/acceptance is given by the Holy Spirit, you don't get it on your own. ( but you can ask {God} for help to get it... you can pray and stuff will happen ) The evidence will stare at you in the face but you'll never accept it until you accept Jesus as Lord.

it's just that the very veil that you struggle to see through is the same veil that separates all men from physically seeing the "other" ... His space we want to eternally live in. If this really does sound like a Mormon ministry, then, all I can say is they got something right .... it's a mystery that your sincere prayer to God unlocks ... it's all about Grace and the gift from that Grace that is faith.

Gotta hit the hay pal, early start in a.m. ... by the by the Divine Mercy is a Chaplet prayer ... google it, try it, it's really easy and may be your turning point. later ...

[Jac3510]

If by doubt you mean not accept, then you haven't read through many of my other conversations.

I tend to be generous, Hap, but I think you are being too generous with yourself here. I demonstrated a long time ago that your Fred cannot exist, that if there is an eternal creator then He necessarily MUST love and care for us. You had no counter response. You just tapped out.

In short, I presented you evidence and you willfully turned a blind eye. Now, that's your right, but don't play like you are going to be rational now. If you are allowed to ignore evidence in one area because you don't have an answer, why not any other? You don't get to say, "Yeah, that's great evidence. I can't argue against it, therefore, I choose to reject it. Now, anybody have any evidence they want to show me? Really, I'm very open minded!"

Not trying to get on your case here . . . I'd just rather you not play games here.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

You sound just like a mormon missionary.

That's just a feeble attempt at an insult. I'm not insultable, so you might as well just can it.

Here are some biblical references regarding the inability to understand what is plainly set before you, an unbeliever:

-Dt 29:2-6, the Lord gives understanding of the evidence. Pay attention to verse 4.
-Daniel 12:9-10, the wicked (those who are unbelievers) are unable to understand.
-Isaiah 6: 9,10
-Mt 13:12,13
1 Cor 2:14,15,16 very clearly states that the unregenerate are unable to understand.

See? your situation is hopeless. You will never understand until you accept Christ. Sorry! (And a big DITTO to what Jac said.) I used to be an atheist, so you can't pull the wool over my eyes.

FL