Catholicism

[RickD]

What is the Hail Mary prayer for then? Hail Mary full of grace......... I can't remember the rest.

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

It is a prayer to God.

How is it a prayer to God? It is specifically being said to Mary and not God.Hail Marry. Hail means to call out to someone to get their attention -Mary.

It's asking Mary to pray to God. Catholics believe they can ask Mary to pray to God for them. Kinda like if you asked me to pray for you, only better.

[Storyteller]

What is the Hail Mary prayer for then? Hail Mary full of grace......... I can't remember the rest.

Hail Mary, full of grace.
Our Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.

It is a prayer to God.

How is it a prayer to God? It is specifically being said to Mary and not God.Hail Marry. Hail means to call out to someone to get their attention -Mary.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,
pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death.

It is asking Mary to pray for us, not us praying to Mary.

I don`t see how that is any different to us asking our friends and family to pray for us, is it?

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Holy Mary, Mother of God,pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.It is asking Mary to pray for us, not us praying to Mary.I don`t see how that is any different to us asking our friends and family to pray for us, is it?

There is a difference, and it isn't negligeable. Mary is dead and can't hear you.

FL

[Kurieuo]

I came across this in my online reading:

The will of the Blessed Virgin is completely conformed to that of Her Son, in other word – God. She is the most humble and chaste spouse of the Holy Ghost and will never do anything contrary to the will of God. Thus, we ought to trust the Blessed Mother just as God has, because She ultimately brings us to God. Mary is our Salvation, and Christ is the source of our Salvation. Mary is the Gate and Christ is the Key. It is only through Her that we are saved. God has so graced Her from the moment of conception to do His most perfect will and because of this He has entrusted Her to be the Mediatrix of ALL grace. In other words; all earthly blessings pass through the very hands of the Virgin Queen.

I don't want any "Protests" people. But, sincerely to my Catholic brethren, I'd be interested in a "please explain"?

[Storyteller]

Holy Mary, Mother of God,pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.It is asking Mary to pray for us, not us praying to Mary.I don`t see how that is any different to us asking our friends and family to pray for us, is it?

There is a difference, and it isn't negligeable. Mary is dead and can't hear you.

FL

Did she not get eternal life? Is she not in Heaven? Her physical body may have died but her spirit is with God. (I think). So how do you know She can`t hear you?

I haven`t actually used a rosary yet, or prayed to Mary but I have thought about it a lot. I honestly believe I have felt Her. I stand out in my garden in the evening quite a lot. I have felt something or someone with me, comforting me, guiding me. It wasn`t God, or Christ and it certainly wasn`t Satan.

As a woman and a mother, Mary offers me a new insight into how to connect with God, how to be. God scared me a little to begin with, if I am honest. Seeing Him through Mary took away a lot of my fear.

[Storyteller]

I came across this in my online reading:

The will of the Blessed Virgin is completely conformed to that of Her Son, in other word – God. She is the most humble and chaste spouse of the Holy Ghost and will never do anything contrary to the will of God. Thus, we ought to trust the Blessed Mother just as God has, because She ultimately brings us to God. Mary is our Salvation, and Christ is the source of our Salvation. Mary is the Gate and Christ is the Key. It is only through Her that we are saved. God has so graced Her from the moment of conception to do His most perfect will and because of this He has entrusted Her to be the Mediatrix of ALL grace. In other words; all earthly blessings pass through the very hands of the Virgin Queen.

I don't want any "Protests" people. But, sincerely to my Catholic brethren, I'd be interested in a "please explain"?

I can`t really answer that one K, I don`t know enough but I did find this, which is quite interesting and explains how loving Mary doesn`t detract from loving God.

falibleblogma.com/index.php/doesnt-loving-mary-more.mean-you-love-god-less/

[Storyteller]

I just want to say I don`t think Mary is my Saviour. Christ, and Christ alone, is my Saviour.

I do think She is another way to understand God. Another way to relate to Him.

[Kurieuo]

I just want to say I don`t think Mary is my Saviour. Christ, and Christ alone, is my Saviour.

I do think She is another way to understand God. Another way to relate to Him.

Evidently, some passionate Catholics take their adoration of Mary way too far.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

Did she not get eternal life? Is she not in Heaven?

I don't know that she got eternal life but in all probability she is saved and in Heaven.

So how do you know She can`t hear you?

Because the Bible says that the dead have no knowledge of what goes on here. See Ecclesiastes 9:5,6. Other passages also confirm that death separates the saints from any knowledge of the living.

I haven`t actually used a rosary yet, or prayed to Mary but I have thought about it a lot. I honestly believe I have felt Her. I stand out in my garden in the evening quite a lot. I have felt something or someone with me, comforting me, guiding me. It wasn`t God, or Christ and it certainly wasn`t Satan.

Scripture identifies the Comforter as the Holy Spirit. He is the most likely candidate for the Presence you sense; call upon Him.

As a woman and a mother, Mary offers me a new insight into how to connect with God, how to be. God scared me a little to begin with, if I am honest. Seeing Him through Mary took away a lot of my fear.

I don't see any problem with identifying with Mary or seeing her as a role model. The problem comes when you start praying to her: apart from the fact that she's dead, she isn't a goddess that could do anything for you.

FL

[Storyteller]

I just want to say I don`t think Mary is my Saviour. Christ, and Christ alone, is my Saviour.

I do think She is another way to understand God. Another way to relate to Him.

Evidently, some passionate Catholics take their adoration of Mary way too far.

Same could be said of pretty much anybody though.

For me, it is simple. I believe in God, I believe Christ is my salvation. That`s pretty much all I need to know. The rest is just details, the icing on the cake.

Anything that brings me closer to God is a good thing. There have been a few things that I have looked into that I have been uneasy with, I honestly believe it is the Holy Spirit guiding me, keeping me on track in my journey with God.

Am I cherry picking the bits of faith that I like? Very likely. But I trust in God to guide me and I listen to Him.

[Storyteller]

Did she not get eternal life? Is she not in Heaven?

I don't know that she got eternal life but in all probability she is saved and in Heaven.

So how do you know She can`t hear you?

Because the Bible says that the dead have no knowledge of what goes on here. See Ecclesiastes 9:5,6. Other passages also confirm that death separates the saints from any knowledge of the living.

I haven`t actually used a rosary yet, or prayed to Mary but I have thought about it a lot. I honestly believe I have felt Her. I stand out in my garden in the evening quite a lot. I have felt something or someone with me, comforting me, guiding me. It wasn`t God, or Christ and it certainly wasn`t Satan.

Scripture identifies the Comforter as the Holy Spirit. He is the most likely candidate for the Presence you sense; call upon Him.

As a woman and a mother, Mary offers me a new insight into how to connect with God, how to be. God scared me a little to begin with, if I am honest. Seeing Him through Mary took away a lot of my fear.

I don't see any problem with identifying with Mary or seeing her as a role model. The problem comes when you start praying to her: apart from the fact that she's dead, she isn't a goddess that could do anything for you.

FL

I don`t know how to seperate the quote so here are my responses..

I believe she must be saved. She had faith, she served her Lord God. He chose her to bear His son. He would do all that and not offer her salvation too? I can`t see that.

It felt, feels different to the Holy Spirit. But I do take on board what you`re saying. And when I pray I pray to God, the Holy Spirit and Christ, all the time, how can I not? They are the same.

I haven`t (yet) prayed directly to Mary. I am listening to what others think about it first. I still really like the idea of using a rosary to help me pray though. I like the Mysteries, pondering on them, feeling them brings me closer to God.

[RickD]

I came across this in my online reading:

The will of the Blessed Virgin is completely conformed to that of Her Son, in other word – God. She is the most humble and chaste spouse of the Holy Ghost and will never do anything contrary to the will of God. Thus, we ought to trust the Blessed Mother just as God has, because She ultimately brings us to God. Mary is our Salvation, and Christ is the source of our Salvation. Mary is the Gate and Christ is the Key. It is only through Her that we are saved. God has so graced Her from the moment of conception to do His most perfect will and because of this He has entrusted Her to be the Mediatrix of ALL grace. In other words; all earthly blessings pass through the very hands of the Virgin Queen.

I don't want any "Protests" people. But, sincerely to my Catholic brethren, I'd be interested in a "please explain"?

K, it seems to me, that writer has gone outside of Catholic doctrine with some of those statements.

I could be wrong, but I don't think catholic doctrine teaches:
1) mary is the spouse of the HS
2) mary ultimately brings us to God
3) Mary is our salvation
4) all earthly blessings pass through the very hands of Mary

I'd like to hear a response from someone catholic about this too. But I'm afraid it won't happen here. There have been too many "catholic bashing" threads. I can't blame them if they don't want to get into it again.

[EssentialSacrifice]

I don't see any problem with identifying with Mary or seeing her as a role model. The problem comes when you start praying to her: apart from the fact that she's dead, she isn't a goddess that could do anything for you.

Ok,. look, it scares the heck out of me to try and explain this, but I'm going to try. But first, I want to say thanks to FL (Lazarus) for the Ecc 9 quote. Dude, you are such a pkrhd for making me work so hard on a Saturday morning... was unaware of this in the OT and am completely taken aback by it... actually can't believe I read what I read ... what you posted (Ecc-9) has me totally confused... I am going to have to look in to his and get back... but here's why...

PreReformation there was agreement that the Apostle's Creed pretty much summed up he Christian's faith postulate. This is what we believe to be called and considered a Christian. One segment of this is as follows...

"I believe in the communion of Saints" .. which is to say I believe it is good to commune with those who have departed and are accessible in heave, through prayer .. You have to die to get there so just exactly how the heck does that jive with Ecc-9 ? Again, thanks Lazarus... you're the best ...

As far as Mary is concerned ... well here it is to the best of my ability ...

She isn't a goddess .. she's more ... she's the Mother of God, she's the spouse of God, she's the daughter of God. There is no one else who can lay claim to that kind of heritage, that kind of closeness, that kind of interpersonal,intertwined relationship with the God of the Universe. God.... come now, God, you know the One we claim to be omniscient, all everything, in such perfection that His ways and thoughts are unknown to us, His ways, so radically superior to our ways and thinking that the complete comprehension of Him will not be validated until our deaths and hopefully eventual joining in His kingdom... you know, that God ...

He chose Mary because He did .. that's all we need to know. He did. She is the Mother of God which allows her to be liable for a whole slew of benefits we will never know.
When we pray to Mary, it's not a prayer to her, it's a prayer through her. Perhaps think of an amplifier, but more... it's not just the amplification of sound it's also the amplification of the thought, heart, love, care, concern, absolute inviolate prayer for another (bippy got one last night) that is happening through her. She will take that prayer to the throne of God in her mystical way, approved and loved by her God, Spouse and Son... all at once and together to relay our best foot forward in the same sincerity by which she answered "yes" to the Angel at the Annunciation.

Now, all this being said, she in know way... in any way is anything more than the most perfect conduit of prayer to our God. Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Light. She, more than any soul ever alive, ever created, knows this. Why do you think there is so little known of her ? She is always and has always been in the background as reverenced and complete a woman's love for her Son and Father and Spouse will ever be. She is, IMO, the most perfect soul and representative of man's best offering as a human and as FL has said a role model, IMO unparalleled .

As far as some Catholics take this too far is concerned, well on the one hand, if someone actually prays to her in lieu of Jesus...they have gone overboard. Honestly, I know of no true Catholic who does. She and her faith are placed in perspective to who she is to God, not who she is to us, or how any one person perceives her. Our perceptions are of no value. It is all about how she is perceived by God that makes her wonderful, and I, for my part will love her unendingly if, for no other reason, for her "yes" to God. Without it, there is no Jesus and without Jesus IMO, there never even would have been a world with out end ...

I hope you'll still let me stay after this.. but it is how i feel and am unashamed to love her and say her creation and perfection is a great sign of God's love for us.

[EssentialSacrifice]

I could be wrong, but I don't think catholic doctrine teaches:
1) mary is the spouse of the HS
2) mary ultimately brings us to God
3) Mary is our salvation
4) all earthly blessings pass through the very hands of Mary

Rick, the only one I'm confident in is #1 ... she is considered the spouse as far as I know. The rest, although possibly correct, would pretty much be off the radar, IMO.

The seventh century Church Father, Saint John of Damascus seems to be the first to write of Mary as spouse of God the Father.

But I cannot say for sure if it's an actual biblical espousal. Probably not. But I can't imagine God creating a child with a woman doing so in any other "perfect" fashion than one of His Sacraments, marriage. At the risk of heresy, would I be wrong in thinking a woman's child w/o father (as a spouse) would be a bastard? Surely not the Christ. Surely Mary was more than a receptacle for the birth of God. More honor would be given her, not less... as a true spouse, not a lucky honey jar.

[Furstentum Liechtenstein]

"I believe in the communion of Saints" .. which is to say I believe it is good to commune with those who have departed and are accessible in heaven, through prayer

The above isn't biblical. You may believe it to be true, but it isn't in the Bible.

she's the Mother of God, she's the spouse of God, she's the daughter of God.

The above isn't biblical either. Mary is the mother of the man Jesus who is the Messiah, God-made-man. God has no mother!. Mary isn't God's spouse either. Where did you get such an idea?! The only point we can agree on is that she's the daughter of God, by virtue of her (presumed) salvation. I would agree that she is probably saved, at least I hope that she is.

Now, all this being said, she in know [sic] way... in any way is anything more than the most perfect conduit of prayer to our God

The above isn't biblical. We have direct access to the Father through Jesus' sacrifice on the cross. No conduits are needed. Where do you come up with this stuff, anyway???


I've selected the above three points as unbiblical, but most of your post reeks with mysticism. Sorry, but hocus-pocus Christianity just isn't my style; I lump it in with the various forms of the prosperity gospels.

FL